? Is it bouncing? Or insufficient insulin? Please give me advice.

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Kaori &Utyun

Kaori &Utyun

Member Since 2017
Hello!

Utyun always jumps as it goes down.
I wonder if this is bouncing or insufficient insulin
I do not know which one.

In the case of bounce, will the day the bounce will disappear?

Utyun is eating Natures' Variety Chicken Cans.
I think carbohydrate was 7%.
In Japan it is difficult to find canned foods of less than 7%.
If Utyun goes low, can you avoid bouncing if you eat carbohydrate-rich canned food?

I hope that my writing will be transmitted to you well.
Thank you very much.
 
Hi there,
I'm not sure why you took the dose up to 0.75u??
I did TR and I would have probably held the 0.5u for a little longer.



Kaori said:
I wonder if this is bouncing or insufficient insulin
Click to expand...
I think he is bouncing from seeing some low numbers, and recently there have been frequent dose changes, this can make the numbers a little crazy.


The 0.5u was getting him to green, on 6/13 when you got that 93 at amps he imediately started heading up, that makes me think that he might have seen lower green at some point at night on 6/12.
When you shot the reduced dose on 6/13, that will have drained the depot, so then when you started again with the 0.5u, you need to start counting for a minimum of 6 cycles (this is for TR), however, I am guessing that you got scared by the high numbers, since he has had DKA, and only held the 0.5u for 2 cycles before going to 0.75u on 6/15, taking him up to 0.75u, may have been a little premature.

So I think for now, you should hold the 0.75, but if you test and find him dropping you should monitor until his numbers stay the same or he starts to come up, just in case this 0.75u is a little too much insulin for him.

You can try and avoid bouncing my trying to slow the numbers if they are dropping fast, you could use the 7% to do that.

I would save the carb rich (above 10%) for situations where the numbers are in low green on dropping very fast at the beginning of the cycle.

When do you feed your kitty?? amps??+2??? How many meals a day.
 
Hi Gill! thank you for the advice.

I was at a loss as to whether I would continue 0.5 U. I was worried because I read that somewhere over 300 numbers will damage the internal organs.
It was too early to go to 0.75 U ... Do I have to return to 0.5 U?

Utyun is still constantly willing for food. He wants over eight times a day little by little.
 
Kaori said:
Do I have to return to 0.5 U?
Click to expand...
As long as you can monitor him(make sure you don't ignore his numbers if you see them dropping, if his numbers are dropping, follow up until you see him stay flat or rise, and have supplies if he were to drop you could stick to the dose.
I'd like to get some experienced members to look in on you as well and see if they think that it's OK to stick with the 0.75u.

What I noted above was for TR, but your signature says SLGS, under SLGS, you would have probably taken the dose down if you were following that dosing method, but with a history DKA, we don't want him on not enough insulin as this can increase the risk of him having DKA again, and that would be very serious. So it may be necessary to take a different approach.

Kaori said:
I was worried because I read that somewhere over 300 numbers will damage the internal organs.
Click to expand...
I think that is when kitty is permanently in high numbers, it's not the same when the numbers are high numbers are short lived bounces resulting from kitty getting into the lower ranges Utyun is spending quite a lot of time under 300, so I shouldn't worry about it at this stage.
 
Gill & George said:
As long as you can monitor him(make sure you don't ignore his numbers if you see them dropping, if his numbers are dropping, follow up until you see him stay flat or rise, and have supplies if he were to drop you could stick to the dose.
I'd like to get some experienced members to look in on you as well and see if they think that it's OK to stick with the 0.75u.

What I noted above was for TR, but your signature says SLGS, under SLGS, you would have probably taken the dose down if you were following that dosing method, but with a history DKA, we don't want him on not enough insulin as this can increase the risk of him having DKA again, and that would be very serious. So it may be necessary to take a different approach.


I think that is when kitty is permanently in high numbers, it's not the same when the numbers are high numbers are short lived bounces resulting from kitty getting into the lower ranges Utyun is spending quite a lot of time under 300, so I shouldn't worry about it at this stage.
Click to expand...

I understood the English sentences about doses.
Since bounce has become a strange translation, I would like to translate it carefully.
I appreciate your advice. Thank you!
 
Kaori said:
Since bounce has become a strange translation, I would like to translate it carefully.
Click to expand...
This is the explanation of bounce taken for the New to the group sticky, hope this helps you understand it better, please ask more questions if you are confused by it.
  • Bouncing - Bouncing is simply a natural reaction to what the cat's system perceives as a BG value that is "too low". "Too low" is relative. If a cat is used to BGs in the 200's, 300's, or higher for a long time, then even a BG that drops to 150 can trigger a "bounce". Bouncing can also be triggered if the blood glucose drops too low and/or too fast.The pancreas, then the liver, release glucogon, glycogen and counter-regulatory hormones. The end result is a dumping of "sugar" into the bloodstream to save the cat from going hypoglycemic from a perceived low. The action is often referred to as "liver panic" or "panicky liver". *Usually*, a bounce will clear kitty's system within 3 days (6 cycles).
 
I had my friend translate Gill 's message last night and I understood.
Thank you! Gill
Utyun bounces every time.
Will the day will come when the bounce will end someday?
 
Kaori said:
I had my friend translate Gill 's message last night and I understood.
Thank you! Gill
Utyun bounces every time.
Will the day will come when the bounce will end someday?
Click to expand...
That's the six million dollar question.

In theory, the more time utyun spends in good numbers the more likely his body will learn to recognise these numbers as normal, and utyun may first bounce less and then stop. Some cats, for one reason or another continue to bounce.

You can try to control the bounce by using food to manage the curve, this can flatten him out and reduce the bouncing.

At the moment how do you feed utyun?
Amps? ??? +2??? +6????
 
Gill & George said:
That's the six million dollar question.

In theory, the more time utyun spends in good numbers the more likely his body will learn to recognise these numbers as normal, and utyun may first bounce less and then stop. Some cats, for one reason or another continue to bounce.

You can try to control the bounce by using food to manage the curve, this can flatten him out and reduce the bouncing.

At the moment how do you feed utyun?
Amps? ??? +2??? +6????
Click to expand...

six million dollar！:nailbiting:

Utyun eats before the injection of am / pm.
It is given to +1 to +3.
And he wants about two more times.
 
Gill & George said:
So you test give him food and then inject.

Then food at +1 and +3

So does he get more?
After +6 maybe?
Click to expand...

I am sorry that the response is delayed because I am using Google translation.
Test, eat and inject.
After that it is + 1 to + 3 so +5. He sometimes wants to eat +9
Please tell me how to flatten the curve with food.
 
I'm just a little busy cooking at the moment, I want to get back to you on this in more detail and give you some links, a little later.

Your schedule for feeding is not disimilar to what I did for George. Except I didn't feed after +6, since feeding after +6 can shorten the duration of the insulin resulting in higher numbers at amps/pmps.
What some people do is if kitty is hungry late in the cycle,or if they need to feed to stop cat from vomiting because stomach gets to empty, they will feed a carbohydrate free snack, you could use plain boiled chicken breast if he will eat it.

Back soon, otherwise my food is going to burn:eek:
 
Gill & George said:
I'm just a little busy cooking at the moment, I want to get back to you on this in more detail and give you some links, a little later.

Your schedule for feeding is not disimilar to what I did for George. Except I didn't feed after +6, since feeding after +6 can shorten the duration of the insulin resulting in higher numbers at amps/pmps.
What some people do is if kitty is hungry late in the cycle,or if they need to feed to stop cat from vomiting because stomach gets to empty, they will feed a carbohydrate free snack, you could use plain boiled chicken breast if he will eat it.

Back soon, otherwise my food is going to burn:eek:
Click to expand...

Do not let it eat after +6.
If Utyun eats it gives the breast of the boiled bird.
OK!
Thank you very much for your advice.
Please eat delicious food slowly.

Arigatō!
 
Hello Kaori

Sorry I wasn't able to get back to you yesterday, we have guests staying. I have limited time today also, guests are still here, but wanted to write to you about managing the curve with food and give you some links to discussions about this subject. I can imagine that the language issue makes it difficult, you are doing very well with Google translate.

I just took a look at Utyun's glucose numbers on his spreadsheet.
Lots of nice blue numbers on this cycle.:cool: Today is cycle 6 on this dose and with the depot filling, we are starting to see what this dose can do for Utyun's. On TR you would hold the dose for at least 10cycles at this point, and on SLGS you would also continue to hold. Unless he earns reduction which on SLGS would be a drop to 90, and on TR it would be a drop to 50 (on a human meter)
(your signature says SLGS, but your dosing hasn't been strictly SLGS, if you are feeding only wet food and it's under 10% then you are OK to do TR if you would rather do this, it allows you to hold on to the dose for longer, hopefully this gets Utyun into good numbers for longer periods of time and that, in turn, can help with the bouncing.

I think that the way you are generally feeding is good (remember only LC snacks late in the cycle/boiled chicken breast) It's similar to how I routinely fed George, but one thing that I did was to actively change that if he was dropping.
eg if I saw a big drop at +2 instead of waiting to feed till +3 I would give him a snack at +2
eg if
Utyun started at amps 200 +1 190, the fact that number was about the same as amps, and I was not seeing a food spike would alert me that a drop might be coming, I would then give snack as usual, but instead of maybe waiting till +3 for next test I would check again at +2, if that +2 was 140, I would give his snack early. Checking again in an hour. The idea is to try to slow down the speed at which they drop, this might ultimately mean that you see them have higher nadirs, but it can help to flatten the curve.

Utyun seems to bounce up to black/reds after he drops to green, when he has just dropped to blue and stayed flat, he seems not to bounce as high and he appears to clear his bounce in about 6 cycles.
He is bouncing, but in the scheme of things he is not too bouncy.

Here's a link to a couple of great thread that discuss bouncing and feeding the curve. These were ones that I kept refering back to and they helped me figure things out for George.
Jetta/bouncing
Feeding the Curve/Tashie

On another note, if Utyun is still blue (or his number is dropping) at preshot, I would post a new thread, link this one and ask for help, with his bounce clearing it can turn into an 'exciting' cycle, and you might want to have some company for moral support just in case he does get into reduction earning numbers. I would look out for you if I could but will be entertaining our guests so I won't be about.

Use the ? from the drop down list and try a catchy phrase like, Utyun pmps 123 shooting low/bounce clearing please help.
Talking about shooting when a bounce is clearing take a loo at this next thread/ post #6
Shooting a dropping number
The link above covers a lot of other areas too, and is one I found very useful.

If for some reason his number was dropping at PMPS and shot without posting I would be very watchful in the early part of the cycle, definitely grab a +1 and +2 BG test. Then take if from there depending on the numbers, monitoring until you see him flat or rising. Remember that on SLGS your no shoot number is 90.

Please ask if you have any questions, I'll try and look in, but can't guarantee it will be today.
 
Gill & George said:
Hello Kaori

Sorry I wasn't able to get back to you yesterday, we have guests staying. I have limited time today also, guests are still here, but wanted to write to you about managing the curve with food and give you some links to discussions about this subject. I can imagine that the language issue makes it difficult, you are doing very well with Google translate.

I just took a look at Utyun's glucose numbers on his spreadsheet.
Lots of nice blue numbers on this cycle.:cool: Today is cycle 6 on this dose and with the depot filling, we are starting to see what this dose can do for Utyun's. On TR you would hold the dose for at least 10cycles at this point, and on SLGS you would also continue to hold. Unless he earns reduction which on SLGS would be a drop to 90, and on TR it would be a drop to 50 (on a human meter)
(your signature says SLGS, but your dosing hasn't been strictly SLGS, if you are feeding only wet food and it's under 10% then you are OK to do TR if you would rather do this, it allows you to hold on to the dose for longer, hopefully this gets Utyun into good numbers for longer periods of time and that, in turn, can help with the bouncing.

I think that the way you are generally feeding is good (remember only LC snacks late in the cycle/boiled chicken breast) It's similar to how I routinely fed George, but one thing that I did was to actively change that if he was dropping.
eg if I saw a big drop at +2 instead of waiting to feed till +3 I would give him a snack at +2
eg if
Utyun started at amps 200 +1 190, the fact that number was about the same as amps, and I was not seeing a food spike would alert me that a drop might be coming, I would then give snack as usual, but instead of maybe waiting till +3 for next test I would check again at +2, if that +2 was 140, I would give his snack early. Checking again in an hour. The idea is to try to slow down the speed at which they drop, this might ultimately mean that you see them have higher nadirs, but it can help to flatten the curve.

Utyun seems to bounce up to black/reds after he drops to green, when he has just dropped to blue and stayed flat, he seems not to bounce as high and he appears to clear his bounce in about 6 cycles.
He is bouncing, but in the scheme of things he is not too bouncy.

Here's a link to a couple of great thread that discuss bouncing and feeding the curve. These were ones that I kept refering back to and they helped me figure things out for George.
Jetta/bouncing
Feeding the Curve/Tashie

On another note, if Utyun is still blue (or his number is dropping) at preshot, I would post a new thread, link this one and ask for help, with his bounce clearing it can turn into an 'exciting' cycle, and you might want to have some company for moral support just in case he does get into reduction earning numbers. I would look out for you if I could but will be entertaining our guests so I won't be about.

Use the ? from the drop down list and try a catchy phrase like, Utyun pmps 123 shooting low/bounce clearing please help.
Talking about shooting when a bounce is clearing take a loo at this next thread/ post #6
Shooting a dropping number
The link above covers a lot of other areas too, and is one I found very useful.

If for some reason his number was dropping at PMPS and shot without posting I would be very watchful in the early part of the cycle, definitely grab a +1 and +2 BG test. Then take if from there depending on the numbers, monitoring until you see him flat or rising. Remember that on SLGS your no shoot number is 90.

Please ask if you have any questions, I'll try and look in, but can't guarantee it will be today.
Click to expand...

Hello Gill

Tonight's pmps was blue and I was very happy!
Today I gave a little bird breasts since +6 on Gill 's advice yesterday.
Although he is likely to go to pink again after this, I was glad to see the blue in the pre-shot.


I still can not translate the contents of all the messages of Gill well,
Thank you for the link of bouncing and feeding the curve.
I would like to review and understand your message carefully.

I appreciate your taking your important time for me and Utyun.
 
Hi Kaori, sorry about that black number tonight. That's a combination of a bounce and a skipped shot.

I see you shot 0.75 u, earlier in the week you mentioned to me that TR was going to be difficult because
  • language barrier makes it difficult to follow instructions promptly in a crisis.
  • There is not emergency vet near you,
  • As you go back to school, you can't monitor so easily.
Anyway, if you are going to do SLGS, which is fine, this mornings amps of 80, earns utyun a reduction in dose to 0.5u. So I would think about reducing the dose back to 0.5u tomorrow morning.

Also in reply to your question in a pm
Kaori said:
I am sorry very much today.
Since amps was 80, I did not hit insulin.
Utyun can not flatten when you do not strike when the pre shot is low?
Click to expand...

No need to be sorry about not shooting the 80, with SLGS you would not shoot below 90(human meter)
Utyun can flatten out even if you follow slgs, but it might take a little longer.

If you were home this morning after the skipped shot, it would have been interesting to see what his numbers were at +1 or +2, so next time you skip a shot, if you are at home maybe try getting those. They can give you an idea of how the cycle would have turned out had you shot.
 
Thank you, Gil!

I am suffering that it is best to change to TR for Utyun.:(
But it is difficult to test the language barrier and more frequently, so SLGS.

I understand, tomorrow morning 0.5 U:cat:
 
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