Is Dale starving or just a pig?

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Hi,
Dale has been getting into a lot of trouble lately eating people food! He is "vacationing" with me at my parents' house, and has torn through an envelope with beef jerky, plastic wrap with banana bread, and paper bags with bread. He has also jumped up onto the counter to lick the spoon used to scoop his food. At my house, he doesn't get into trouble like that, and I don't know if it's just because my husband and I don't leave food out, or if he's gotten hungrier lately. Of course, his Jewish grandma thinks he's STARVING. At my house, my DH did forget to clean up after dinner once and Dale licked up some chili verde sauce.
A bit of background: Dale was brought up on free feeding, always a bowl full of dry food. Since his diagnosis he only gets wet food, currently Friskies but I am always experimenting to find the best. He gets a can and a half a day (8.25 ounces) and weighs about 10 lbs. I was feeding him only twice a day before and after shots, but after some people on here said they feed more often, I've split it into three meals. Do you think he needs more food or insulin? I've been holding steady at 1 unit but his numbers jump around. Also, he has been dragging kitty litter onto everything, which is telling me his urine is very sticky. Isn't that another indication I may need to up his dose?
 
Hi Sabrina

would you be able to update your spreadsheet for Dale?

Unfortunately, you are missing a lot of data, especially pre-shots.

The ravenous eating is very common in unregulated kitties, I would strongly urge you to collect a bit more data for Dale so you know A) safe to shoot and B) how Lantus is working for him.

Yes, we do encourage snacks thru the day plus the main meals at shot times... this also helps steer numbers, but again, you need to know what those numbers are.

I would be very cautious about upping dose without the crucial info of how Lantus is working thru each cycle.

Let's see what others can suggest ok?
 
Unfortunately I'm not able to test Dale regularly, but I will try to get some other times in there.
 
Welcome to Lantus ISG Dale who is very hungry.
How about testing before each shot? That would help. Then a +6 (6 hours after shot)? Or any mid cycle numbers you can grab.
It is hard to see what is going on and what his dose needs are without more BG numbers.
If he's hungry I'd feed him more (low carb wet).
 
Hi, I agree w/ Ronnie, you need to do a lot more testing before the advisors can safely give dose advice.

As to the amount Dale is eating, does he clean up every meal and look for more? Is 10 lb. what he should weigh or is he skinny from the diabetes? Unregulated cats eat more because they cannot metabolize what they eat. In other words they may be overeating but the body cannot absorb the nutrients it needs and they eat more and more.

Have you read Dr. Lisa's articles on cat nutrition? They are a wealth of information. http://catinfo.org/ She says the "average cat needs 4 to 6 oz. of canned food per day. What is more important than the amount of food is the calories consumed. (Ideal weight) x 13.6 +70 = cal/day So if 10lb. is Dale's ideal weight, he should be eating around 206 calories a day. Once you know how many calories a day Dale should be eating you can look up the food you are feeding on Janet & Binky's List The second to last column give calories per can. If he is eating all his food and looking for more, I would give it to him at this point. As he becomes regulated he will eat less. Cats know when their needs are met.

On the other hand he may be a carb addict and you will always have to be careful what you leave out. :roll: Was he used to eating people food before?
 
Thanks D and Ann,
I think he MAY be a carb addict. Yes, he ALWAYS cleans up and licks the bowl. No, he wasn't used to eating people food before but definitely as much dry as he wanted. I'll look up the calories. I'm just worried that since the urine is so sticky, it is more an issue with the insulin not regulating enough rather than him needing more food.
 
Oh, and Dale is fluffy- looks part Maine Coon or Norwegian Forest cat so 10 lbs. if anything is smallish for him.
 
10 lb. would be pretty small for a male Maine Coon. How much did he weigh before dx? Since he is fluffy it may be hard to visually determine if he is too thin. There should be a definite waist behind the ribs, you should be able to feel the ribs but not too easily and the spine should not be prominently visible. What does your vet say about his weight?

Try feeding him a little more each meal. If they are not hungry they won't eat, believe me, I have been having the opposite problem w/ Tess.
 
If Dale is part Maine Coon or Norwegian Forest Cat, he's likely to be underweight. A male NFC weighs 16 - 18 lbs; my 1.5 year old NFC kitten weighs 13 lbs. Maine Coons are larger.

To be honest, it's extremely difficult to make any suggestions about dose given the lack of information. While Lantus dosing is not based on pre-shot tests, those pre-shot numbers are important with respect to whether it is safe to give a shot. You have no idea whether Dale is starting a cycle in the 400s or in the 40s. IMHO, there's not enough mid-cycle checks to know what is going on with his levels either.

We are very data driven in Lantus Land. We encourage everyone to routinely get a pre-shot test and at least one mid-cycle spot check. It you take a look at the spreadsheets of some of the people who post here, you'll see a variation in the amount of testing but everyone pretty much meets this minimum standard. Please do what you can to increase your testing both for Dale's safety and to guide your decision making and so we can better help you.
 
There's a big gap on the ss from 6/30 to 7/11 with a note of no testing. Does that mean Dale had no insulin shots on those days?

It's very difficult to say what dose of Lantus is needed as there is no recent data, and tests before each shot is pretty important or you could be giving insulin when Dale is low BG. In order to know if the dose needs adjusting, you need to know Dale's nadir so you will need to post some mid-cycle numbers.

As for the food, both Shadoe and Oliver ate like they were STARVING when they were first on insulin after dx and until they got a bit regulated. Before regulation, they ate ALOT.

Human diabetics would tell you that they eat more frequently because it's the food that is balancing their blood sugars; you want as steady a level as possible, so by giving just a few meals, you may be contributing to spikes in Dale's BG. Even humans are advised to eat every 3 hours to maintain a healthy weight. 3 meals and 2 or 3 snacks are a good amount. You will see a difference in Dale's food habits once you spread out his food intake throughout the day. Many people use an auto-feeder where you can divide up Dale's food into the sections and Dale can have access to foods at regular intervals.

Petsafe 5-meal Auto Feeder

You may be underfeeding at this point so that may be the reason for attacking foods.
Often, the body is not able to process the food and so Dale may not be getting the nutrients needs and so is driven to eat more. I can say that my Shadoe was eating close to 20oz of food a day at the start because her body likely was not able to pull the nutrients from the foods. Now if she eats 10oz a day, I am surprised. My Oliver was eating close to 30oz on some days, but I am finally cutting down for him. So far today, he has eaten about 15oz, spread out over 4 feedings so far.

Take a look at the auto feeder in the link above and please see if you can test before each shot to ensure you are not giving insulin when Dale may be low.
 
In response to some questions/comments

He is not full MC or Norwegian. He weighed about 14 at one point. He is does not feel too bony.

No, that gap does not mean no shots, only no testing as my mother is trained to do the shots but I don't expect her to do the glucose testing.

It's almost mealtime so I'll test Dale in just a bit.

I had been under the impression that without insulin, a diabetic cannot process the food, and that was the reason for a shot after each meal. The vets have always told me to feed 12 hours apart. The latest one told me to feed a can a day and I asked if I could go up to a can and a half. I think before increasing the amount I give him, I may spread it out into one more snack.
 
The shots are 12hours apart but not the foods. You must feed more frequently - many people feed several mini-meals or snacks.

I use the auto feeder for Shadoe, which is 5 small meals during the daytime when I am at work and then feed a few times during the evening till I go to bed.

I think if you are feeding only twice a day, that may explain why Dale may be gulping down food and wanting more. If you calculate the amount of foods needed for Dale's ideal weight you may find you are feeding too little. You could also try to spread out the total amount of food over the day in several mini-meals so that Dale does not go hungry for long periods of time.
 
Do you put canned food in those feeders? Also, any other snacks I could try? I currently just keep him on the canned food, changing the varieties now and then.
 
Yes you can put canned food in the feeders. the whole tray lifts out for cleaning. They are pretty deep and somet cats don't like getting their head in that far, I set smaller dishes into the compartments.

For treats many of use freeze dried chicken, liver or salmon. Petsmart and Petco have them in the dog treats section. Halo makes Liv-a-littles, same thing just more expensive. Wellness makes jerky type treats that are single ingredient also. That's what you want to look for, single ingredient, no carbs.

Or just cube some plain cooked chicken or raw it is actually very good for them.
 
Uh- oh, he's gotten into some beef jerky twice and puked it up, so maybe not a jerky. But I know that was probably not single ingredient. Thanks, I'll look for some of those.
 
Some cats are sensitive to beef and it will upset their stomach. The Wellness jerky treats are not beef -- they are either a turkey and lamb or chicken and salmon combinations.
 
You can get PureBites in the petfood section at Walmart and other places - I get the big size for dogs 100% dried chicken. Shadoe goes insane for them but Oliver is not a treat cat.

Here's a picture of Shadoe's feeder. I got little glass bowls that fit into each section and makes it easier to get all the foods. The sections are about the size of a 5.5oz friskies can.
 

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When Jake was diagnosed back in late February he was so raveounous and it totally tripped me out. He actually broke into my nephews room and tore open a bag of dry cat food that was on the top bunk of his bunk bed!! This guy is 16 years old and can't climb very well and he did it! His drive for food has always been strong, now add the body basically starving itself to the mix and you got one determined kitty!

As for not testing before the shots, that's really scary! If he's below a certain number, administering a shot could possibly kill him! My advice is to make his shot fit your schedule, if you wake up at 6am and need to be at work by 9am and you get home around 7pm then I would make his shot at like 7a/7p cycles, or 8a/8p cycles. That way you're always testing at the VERY LEAST before his shot, when I'm low on strips... and I constantly am, and I make sure if I can only spare 3 a day then two of those 3 strips are being used BEFORE his shot.

I'm not sure how everyone here does it, but my vet said the steps are as follows:
1. TEST
2. FEED
3. SHOOT

Hope this helps, and good luck.

-Breayle and Jake
 
My cat is prolly similar to Dale. He's a part Maine Coon and he eats way more than Dale. He weights over 8.5kilo's which is nearly twice that of Dale. Little Boy has been very hungry since April when he started displaying symptoms of diabetes. I wonder what Dale's thirst/drinking is like and also how much he is peeing? If those things have not settled down closer to his pre diabetes habits and he's really hungry it suggests that the amount of insulin isn't bringing the diabetes under control. Dale's numbers are quite high from the testing you've been doing - have you/or the vet tested for ketones?

It is really hard to judge from food consumption alone as once they start pigging out I suspect their brains become a obsessive about food. LB is eating less on the days his BG is low - but over all he is eating a lot and regaining all the weight he lost in the last few months. Mostly his numbers are still higher than normal and he's on 4.25units twice a day. I would also take a close look at the wet food you are giving him to make sure it's very low in carbs.

How old is Dale?
 
Dale is 10. He does look a lot like LB! I think he's been peeing a lot lately and may need a higher dose, but this morning's # was way lower. I'll keep monitoring. I do have the food chart and make sure I pick low-carb ones, but I don't know if I've found his best food yet.
 
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