Introduction and a Question

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AvalonWitch

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Hi all,

My name is Ava. First I'd like to say how relieved I am that there are so many communities and so much information on this topic. I have three feral rescues, one of whom has been diagnosed with diabetes. Unfortunately, the cost to get him on insulin and get him regulated (the vet wants a 3 day glucose curve!) are beyond what my family is willing to allow me to pay. They have complete control over my assets and they refuse to pay because they sincerely believe that all vets make pets sick specifically to get money. Now - this will be a long post so bear with me!

The cat in question is about 11-13 years of age. His name is Shiro. He's one recessed testicle and is not neutered - the surgery would be too much for his heart. He was normally 14lbs but has gone down to about 12.8lbs (which is what prompted me to seek the initial bloodwork that caused the diagnosis). He's on Atopica for stomatitis, has cardiomyopathy and is the most ornery, HUNGRY cat on the planet. He had a bad run at the shelter from which I rescued him (he had been a feral in my neighborhood and I couldn't stand the idea of them putting him down) and ever since he's had a strong compulsion to eat anything and everything nearby. My parents don't help this matter - they love to feed him table scraps, feed him after i've told them he's already eaten because he "looks hungry" and repeatedly ignore my requests to ration his food as per food requirements. It is my belief that their treatment of his diet has brought this on. Unfortunately, I work an 8 hour day and go to school for 5 hours. They are unwilling to get him curved and on insulin immediately and their alternate choice to the below plan of action is to put him to sleep - which I simply can't do. His quality of life is quite good despite his illnesses and he still has plenty of years left in him. I believe Diabetes is treatable and manageable given the right diet and proper monitoring, so putting him to sleep is not an option for me.

Their plan of action is to put him on a low-carb diet (with minimal cooperation mind you - they "can't promise" they won't feed him scraps, or extra food if he looks hungry) and wait a month before paying for a one day curve. I plan on purchasing a glucose meter, strips and lancelets to curve him myself at home - to see if the low carb diet is doing any good and to try to push for an earlier professional curve if necessary. Last year he was pre-diabetic, but not diabetic. So I believe that a low carb diet could significantly improve his diabetes.

But I need to know if you think this is an appropriate plan. What I want to avoid is doing the professional curve (one day - we simply cannot afford a full three day curve) putting him on insulin to try to regulate him AND THEN putting him on the low-carb diet. Thus the decision to alter his diet and monitor him at home for a month prior to getting a one day curve. His vet is not being very helpful - she insists a three day curve is necessary. My problem with this is that she is aware this cat does NOT eat outside of our home. He becomes lethargic, refuses to eat, and becomes very aggressive and nervous. Even taking him to the vet for his regular checkups (every month to monitor the stomatitis) causes him severe depression. I do not believe any long-term curve could be accurate in his case, as he will be very nervous, won't be eating as he normally does and most likely will not cooperate without sedation (which would nullify the results.)

If any of you have any ideas, comments or suggestions I would so appreciate them. I don't think he'll give me a hard time testing on the ear (he's a mean, aggressive cat but he tends to settle down for medical treatments that don't cause him pain, he doesn't fight back when being given shots etc.) This is really the only plan available to me but I need to know if it's a good one.
 
Switch to low carb canned and buy the meter ASAP. You do NOT need to do ANY curves at the vet office, and most certainly not THREE... most of the time any numbers they get will be elevated from stress and won't be accurate. Do the curves at home where your cat is relaxed. It will save you a ton of money and stress on both you and kitty.

However I think a month is too long to wait for results of a diet change. When I dropped the carbs in Scooter's diet, he dropped 150 points in 3 days. I wouldn't wait more than 2 weeks... maybe less, someone might have better insight.

The longer you wait to start insulin, the more damage to the pancreas is being done, and the less chance you have at remission.

Your cat is hungry all the time because he cannot process the food he is eating and is literally starving to death from the inside out. Once you get a handle on his diabetes this will stop and he will gain the lost weight back. You NEED to stop your parents from feeding your cat table scraps unless they were specifically put aside during preparation for your cat (ie. PLAIN cooked chicken breast). Some cats are so carb sensitive, anything with carbs like wheat, rice, corn starch in sauces, etc. can set their blood glucose skyrocketing for days. This will only cause you more difficulties in the treatment process.
 
Also - you may want to get in touch with DCIN (Diabetic Cats in Need). Their website is here. They have a financial support program and they may be able to help you with the cost of supplies, insulin, vet bills, etc. if you are willing to fully commit to a proper insulin treatment protocol but can't afford it.

My boy Scooter is a DCIN sponsored kitty and they help pay for his insulin, testing strips, lancets, occasionally syringes, and any vet costs including the dental cleaning he needs soon. Without DCIN I don't think Scooter would be here today. :smile:
 
Hi!
You don't need a 3 day curve at the vet. Period. You can buy a Relion (Micro or Confirm) meter at Walmart for $9 or so, and a box of test strips that will fit both meters (50 strips for $20) and do all the testing you want in the comfort of your home.

The basic plan is a good one, given your circumstances. Low Carb diet first. Here's a link to great choices that you won't pay a fortune for. Stay away from any Vet Prescription food. They are overpriced and no better than most brands you can buy at the grocery store in terms of what is good for a diabetic cat. And no dry food. Beyond the carbs that are a lot higher in dry food, it's just not a good food for any cat to eat. Here is a link to charts that show the protein, fat and carb percentages of dozens of canned foods. Look mostly at the "% carbs) column. Anything below 7% is fine. Some favorites with kitties here are Friskees Pates, Fancy Feast Classics, even Walmart's Special Kitty. Click on both the "old" and the "new" canned list.
http://binkyspage.tripod.com/canfood.html
This is a page full of links to great general information on Feline Diabetes:
http://binkyspage.tripod.com/faq.html

As far as cost goes, here's a link to a fantastic organization that might be able to help you with the cost of insulin, called Diabetic Cats In Need. You may be able to get some help there:
http://fdmb-cin.blogspot.com/
They also have a Facebook page:
http://www.facebook.com/DiabeticCatsInNeed

A switch to low carb food is sometimes all that a cat needs. He may need insulin, but the diet switch is a good "first thing to do", along with home testing. You have to convince your family to get on board. The wrong table scraps will set him back. Things like plain chicken breast, shrimp, those are fine, but other things will cause him problems. They can't just feed him "because he looks hungry". He'll "look hungry" just because he knows there's a payoff for it. And, at first, he will be hungrier than normal. If the extra food he eats is all low carb, that's okay. But supplementing his diet with crappy food is going to undo all the work you are trying to do. I think that once your family sees how dedicated you are with the diet and testing, they'll "get on board". You're doing a terrific thing for this poor boy! Feline diabetes is not a death sentence. It's a manageable condition that many cats can overcome and eventually not need insulin anymore. We call that going "Off the Juice". It happens here almost daily it seems. My cat, Bob, got insulin for 10 weeks, and now he's controlled just by diet.

Welcome to the board!
Carl in SC
 
Hello, and WELCOME!!

Can i ask your name, and your kitty's name??

You've already had a lot of good input, so I'll just say KUDOS to you for your dedication to your kitty!

And my lil fella is another success story like Carl's Bob.
Binks was desperately ill when we found this website...
so was on insulin for 8 months...
but he is approaching one year of being Off The Juice: a diet-controlled diabetic-
and is happy, healthy, and quite the little hellion :-D :-D

You've found the right place for help.

celi & binks
 
@ Ry & Scooter - Thanks for the tips. I will definitely be monitoring his glucose closely to see if it gets under control with the low carb diet (we've already switched him - he's on day two.) If it doesn't, as I said I will be pushing for a sooner glucose curve and putting him on the insulin before the month is up. But the truth is my parents are supporting me fully and they are quite strict in terms of how parents and children interact. I am not allowed to make requests of them, only to inform them about their choices - there is nothing I can do to make them stop feeding him scraps or to MAKE them take him to the vet. I am trying to do all I can within my power, but certainly not at the risk of getting kicked out of the house, which is a possibility if I push them too much on this issue. Let's just say our family is not very closely bonded.

In regards to his appetite, he's had the large appetite ever since he was rescued from the kennel, about 5-6 years ago - where two cats in his same cage wouldn't let him eat. His appetite has not increased due to the diabetes, he's just always been a big eater. I actually watched his food intake when I noticed the weight loss and increased drinking/urination but there has been no change.

I will get in touch with DCIN, especially if the low carb diet doesn't help his diabetes. I want to give it at least a week to see results and I won't be able to curve him until Friday at the earliest.

@ carlinsc - Again, thank you so much. You have no idea what a relief it is to hear my suspicion and the suspicion of my parents (that a 3 day curve is unnecessary and a way for them to gouge us.) I'm fairly confident in my ability to get him to let me test and curve him and home. I also believe this will be the most accurate measure. Luckily I have no school on Fridays and Saturdays so that is when I plan on beginning to do a full curve myself for the first time.

I've already printed out the available lists of decent food. Luckily - We had a Fancy Feast Classic and three Friskee's Pate's on hand, which will keep my 13lbser going for two days or so. We'll be picking up more tomorrow. I'll also be switching our two other boys to the low carb diet ASAP - prevention is the best medicine after all! Our other two are quite thin and so I'd honestly been quite irresponsible and never given the dietary value (or lack thereof) of dry foods a thought. At the very least, my parents are willing to fund the diet change - we both agree that a veterinary diet is not only too expensive but unnecessary in light of how many low carb options there are commercially.

So far they've refrained from giving him scraps but my dad especially is really weak willed when it comes to feeding him; they're buddies. =__= I just wish they were buddies enough to get him to see that scraps are only making things worse. Again I appreciate the responses and welcome any more tips.


@mybuddybinks - :D Hi! This little fella is named Shiro. :3 And I'm Eden-Avalon, but Ava works just fine. He's an all white, green eyed, moggie shorthair. He's ... a little bit temperamental. He's definitely the alpha, grumpy old man of our three cats. It's great to see that there are diet-only controlled diabetic kitties. I really think this will make a huge difference, especially if we can get him off the scraps.

P.S. - Here's a picture
Shirobi.jpg


See what I mean about him always being grumpy? Haha. I'll try to catch him in a good mood for a better shot.
 
As far as the scraps issue goes - ask your dad if he would give a diabetic kid sugar, knowing that it might cause the child's death. Yes, I said death. Untreated diabetes KILLS. The excessive glucose which can't be used by the body causes damage to the body. The breakdown of fat for calories causes muscle wasting and can trigger ketoacidosis - a pretty miserable death.

Then look your dad straight in the eyes and tell him, he will NOT do that to your 'kid'! You might make up some baggies of appropriate low carb snacks (ex freeze-dried chicken bits) and hand them out to your dad, so if he is tempted, he has something OK to give.

And until the diabetes is regulated, your cat will be HUNGRY because for all that he eats, he can't use it very well. Once you've made the low carb food change and have learned to home test, you'll be ready to start an insulin IF it is still needed. We typically encourage the use of Lantus, Levemir, ProZinc or PZI insulins.

As far as insulin cost - Levemir & Lantus both come in pens, usually sold in sets of 5. One pen is 3 mL. with 100 units per mL, thats 300 units per pen. At a dose of 1 unit twice a day (aka BID), one pen will last 150 days. Two units twice a day will last 75 days. With a prescription, these may be purchased in Canada where they may be less expensive. Or check on your local Craigslist (be sure to ask if opened or not, what the expiration date is, and how the pens were stored).
 
@ BJM - Haha. You might not like the answer to that question - he has diabetes himself and does not really control his eating as well as he should. I'd love to stand up to my dad in this way - but it would result in him suddenly deciding to put the cat to sleep, or kicking me out.

I'd like to clarify that Shiro is NOT hungrier than usual. He has had a large appetite since his rescue from the shelter, 5-6 years ago. This is before he was overweight and before he was diabetic. He's learned (unfortunately) that if he waits at his regular feeding area, or looks at my parents when they are eating - they will feed him. He wasn't a big eater before the shelter, but he wasn't eating for 3 days until we found and rescued him (we had to look at every shelter in the city to find him!) because two bigger cats were hogging the food. Thus far his symptoms are increased thirst and urination, and weight loss.

My mother at least is willing to stop the scrap food cycle, it's my dad who'll be hard to convince. But we'll get there; I just have to go about it in the least confrontational way possible. I'll be monitoring Shiro's glucose on the low carb diet and posting the results - if he needs insulin i'll do my darndest to make sure he gets it. But for now, my parent's resistance only leaves me with the diet and home monitoring as options. (Not to mention that i'm kind of iffy about our vet now that they've insisted on a 3 day glucose curve, indicated that home testing was not an option and tried to sell us an expensive, unnecessary diet.)
 
Welcome Ava & Shiro!

I second getting in touch with DCIN to see if they can help you with the financial end of things. You are spot on that curves done at the vet aren't going to tell you much because stress raises bloodsugar. But you will need a vet to prescribe the insulin initially, if you need to go that way.

I, personally, have 2 diabetics along with 14 healthy and happy cats. Both of my diabetics I adopted through DCIN when their previous owners wanted them put to sleep. The first one Maxwell is already in remission and the second Musette is well regulated on insulin with hopes of also getting her into remission. For Maxwell it simply took a couple of weeks on insulin and a change in diet to get him into remission. Around here everyone eats what the diabetics eat, good old fashioned Friskies Pate so if you can get your parents to switch everyone over to a canned diet it will make your job of keeping him on the correct diet much easier, and it is better for them all. Yes, it at first seems to be more expensive to feed canned but what I have found is in the end it works out cheaper, because I'm spending less in litter as well as less in vet expenses, because my one non-diabetic had food allergies and once I switched everyone diet he also went off his meds for allergies and hasn't had a flare up since.

As far as table scraps go...well those can be either good or bad depending what they are, if you can compromise with your parents that if they are going to feed him extra please make sure it is purely meat. There is no problem to give him extra munchies off their plates as long as they are meat, with our furry kids they routinely get bites off our plates but it is things like steak, pork chops, fish, etc. In fact both of my diabetics favorite treats is simply bites of plain boiled chicken breasts and even better as far as they are concerned if that chicken is raw.

Get a meter start testing to see how the diet is doing but only wait a couple of weeks to see if it is bringing him down low enough, there is a good chance that if you have caught it early enough that diet might be all you need to send him back to normal numbers ( which for a human meter is between 40-120), if not you will need to start him on insulin and this board can help you figure out how to adjust his dose when needed, so the only thing you will need from your vet is a script for the insulin. After that we can help you help Shiro.

Thank you so much for loving that grumpy guy enough to want to treat his diabetes, it is very managable at home and should never be a death sentence for a cat. I know I have two beautiful members of my furry family that at one point were scheduled for death.

Mel, Maxwell, Musette & The Fur Gang
 
I think that giving something for your dad that's healthy for your cat to snack on is a good idea--any plain, boiled meat works, or you can get freeze dried treats at Petsmart that are 100% chicken or salmon. Fancy Feast Appetizers are also low carb and a good supplemental treat option. Do you think you can convince him to just change the type of treats he's giving the cat, rather then trying to stop it?

While it's possible diet change alone might work, most cats do need insulin for a time to allow their pancreas time to heal. The good news is that with Lantus or Levemir, a low carb canned diet only, and regulation via home testing, cats have an 84% chance of diet-controlled remission. And all you need from a vet is for them to write you the script for the insulin and syringes--you do NOT need to pay for any vet testing if you're home testing. Bandit's never had his blood sugar tested at the vet--apart from the pre-dental bloodwork where we discovered the diabetes.

I hate to say this--but if the diet change alone doesn't work (and you'll know within a week or so if it does), and you aren't going to pursue insulin therapy, then it's kinder to euthanize him than let him die slowly from diabetes. However, insulin therapy is really easy to manage, and really not expensive at all beyond the initial insulin expense (Lantus is $130-$220, depending on whether you get it from an American or Canadian pharmacy) and you can also try and get help here to cover the cost of the insulin. Test strips can add up but there are ways to get them cheaper online. One way to explain it for your parents would be to say if they were going to pay to get the cat put to sleep anyway, why not just use that same money instead for insulin and save the cat's life?
 
MommaOfMuse said:
As far as table scraps go...well those can be either good or bad depending what they are, if you can compromise with your parents that if they are going to feed him extra please make sure it is purely meat. There is no problem to give him extra munchies off their plates as long as they are meat, with our furry kids they routinely get bites off our plates but it is things like steak, pork chops, fish, etc. In fact both of my diabetics favorite treats is simply bites of plain boiled chicken breasts and even better as far as they are concerned if that chicken is raw.
Click to expand...


I forgot to mention this, too. Some table scraps are ok--I slip Bandit the occasional piece of chicken or sashimi. Anything that is 100% meat (as long as it's not fried or has any sauce on it) is fine to give as a treat.
 
@ MommaOfMuse and Julia & Bandit - I'm starting to think that informing them about the type of scraps may definitely alleviate the situation. My dad has a soft spot for kitten eyes, which Shiro has mastered. My dad's been known to go to the deli to buy cuts of meat just for Shiro - so that advice will probably pan out. Believe it or not, their hesitancy to pay for the 3 day glucose curve (aside from 3 days being too long) involve thier STRONG belief that all vets are con artists who make pets sick on purpose for money. They're perfectly willing to fund the diet change to canned, low carb food.

As for the insulin. What we really can't afford are the glucose curves and general blood testing. I'll try to convince my parents to get Shiro on insulin if he ends up needing it, but I doubt they'll give in for at least two or three weeks - and at the month mark (Despite their promise) I still predict problems getting it done. I have no plans of not letting him get the medicine he needs if he needs it. I will admit i'm a bit concerned about the cost of the meter, strips, lances and insulin - but my sister and I can always figure out something and I'm relieved to know there are assistance programs available.

As a matter of interest, how often does one need to test outside of the curves? Once he's been stabilized I mean. I know that for the first few weeks I can expect to be running curves and mini curves until he's either in normal range on the diet or normal range with diet and insulin. But after that?
 
It kind of depends on the insulin if any you are using, I don't have any experience with Prozinc, but with Lantus or Levemir the most important tests are right before each shot (am & pm) as well as the nadir or the lowest point in the cycle (the 12 hours between shots) as well as for me at least what I call my lights out test which is the one I get right before I turn in for the night. That for me is more a peace of mind kind of thing.

Right now while he isn't on insulin I would test right before I feed him, then a couple hours after feeding him to see if he still has a functioning pancreas, if it is functioning you will see his blood sugar go up right after eating and then drop back down some a few hours after eating.

If your dad is a diabetic himself, would he be willing to share his testing supplies with Shiro? Even if that meant you getting a seperate meter like his for Shiro you could still share test strips in the beginning. If not then Walmart's Relion meters are going to be your cheapest option as far as test strips go. The meter is about $9 and a vial of 50 strips will run about $20.

is your dad on insulin as well? depending what type you might be able to talk him into sharing a little of that as well. My mother is a diabetic and when I first thought about switching my Musette's insulin from Lantus to Levemir I asked my mom if I could have a couple of her pens to try to see if it made a difference for Musette. Most human diabetics don't completely use up their pens because their doses are so much higher than what is used for a cat. if your dad uses either Lantus or Levemir, perhaps ask if you could just try one of his pens (assuming he uses the flexpens as opposed to a vial) to see if it helps Shiro. That way if it works well for Shiro then you can show your folks that he really does need insulin and gets a good response to it, plus it will give you good data to go into a vet and say this is what you want for him.

Mel, Maxwell, Musette & The Fur Gang
 
@ MommaOfMuse - My father is not insulin dependent, but for the first few weeks I am sure I can get ahold of testing supplies through my wal mart. I think I'll be able to manage testing at about those times, I may have to teach my sister to do it when I'm art work but thank you for the info. I'll be sure to post Shiro's numbers when I do my first test!
 
If you haven't seen this yet here is an excellent video on how we test our cat ears http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zE12-4fVn8 Another thing that we found really handy in the beginning with Maxwell especially since I adopted him in October was to warm his ears up before trying to test. I did this by making him a little rice sock, I just took a thinnish cotton sock and put a little bit of plain uncooked white rice in the toe and knotted it. This I would just toss into the microwave for a few seconds until it was nice and warm but not hot and would hold that against his ear for a few seconds.

It also help to back the ear with something firm so the lancet doesn't just deflect off the ear, I use the same rice sock that I use for warming the ear, but others will use a folded paper towel, or a cosmetic sponge.

And the biggest tip is nice low carb treats at every test regardless if you get blood or not so that Shiro learns that tests equals something yummy. For Musette that was fat free cream cheese, she goes nuts for it. Maxwell on the other hand it was a good brushing session. Just got to find something that Shiro really loves and reserve that for test times. Even though Maxwell has been in remission now for over a year he still comes running when he hears the meter turn on because he knows he will get his brushing and Musette will come and get me if I'm running late for a test because she wants her cream cheese. :lol:

Mel, Maxwell, Musette & The Fur Gang
 
If you get the Relion Confirm at Walmart, these strips are compatible: http://www.americandiabeteswholesal...lucose-test-strips_4050.htm?source=SiteSearch. Like Mel said, you'll want to budget for about 3-4 tests a day, with a curve once a week. That's about 128 strips a month. If you buy the Arkray strips in the package lot in that link, testing supplies will run you about $35 a month.

However, the sooner you start insulin, the better and sooner are your chances of remission. A cat in remission only needs to be tested once or twice a month, so maybe you could explain to your parents that it's more economical to get started sooner than later?
 
Welcome, Ava & Shiro!

Neo and I are newcomers here and have had great help when I'm freaking out.

I bought the Relion at Wal-Mart and have been testing Neo prior to eating in the morning and night. We took dry food completely out of his diet and have put him on Friskies Pate (what he was eating for wet food anyway) and are giving him Tender Vittles Classic pates now.

We are in the lucky group because the change in his diet and lowered his glucose level enough where he hasn't had a shot for almost 2 weeks now!

Good luck to you! (And I think your dad would probably be agreeable to give Shiro goodies from a special treat bag you make up).
 
You can get a home testing kit for the cost of shipping it to you by clicking on the "home testing kit" link at the top of the page....

Carl
 
A quick note on table scraps - no onions or garlic for cats, that can be fatal. It causes methemoglobinemia.
 
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