Insulin Resistant and Can't Gain Weight

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mary_d

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Hello everyone!

I am so glad I found this board with its message of hope! My 13-year-old cat Cherry was diagnosed with diabetes in June. I have been bringing her in to the vet for curve tests every 2 weeks. The vet started her on 1/2 unit twice a day of Lantus. Now she is on 3 units twice a day. With 3 units her blood sugar has finally gone below 400 to 391 for the first time. (I know that's not much but I'm cheering any/every improvement.) My main concern is that she went from 12 pounds to 6. She also had loose stools, gas and rumbling intestines when I took her in to the vet. She was eating dry food and some wet. I finally begged the vet to hospitalize her (she's still there) to get the blood sugar down and weight up. She has been at the animal hospital for 2 weeks. On Friday she will have another curve test. The weight has maintained, fluctuating between 6 pounds and 6 pounds 1 ounce since then. I'm afraid to take her home because I don't want her to waste away. Do you have any suggestions for me on what I might suggest to the vet? Also any thought on diet would be so much appreciated. My email is statcatmd @ hotmail.com (remove spaces). Thank you so much in advance for your expert help! :)
 
well, unfortunately, the curves at the clinic and the hospitalization may be the source of your problem. I say this not knowing if there are any other complicating factors, BUT vet stress can cause blood glucose levels to INCREASE and so the cat ends up getting more insulin than they may actually need.

That said, it does sound like her tummy is upset; what has your vet done to determine what is going on ?

Jen
 
Hi and welcome.

There are a few things I'd want to do and ask you, but are you planning on staying on the board so we can discuss options as a group? I ask simply because you posted your email address. It would be best to get advice from the group as a whole.
 
Hi Jen! Thank you for kindly getting back to me so quickly! Yes, I suspected that the hospitalization may be the culprit. I also suspect that I wasn't giving the insulin shots properly this summer. I watched that great slide show tutorial on this/our website and the clue to me was when it said that you can see the wet spots on your cat's coat, that I wasn't properly giving the shots under her skin.

With regard to the food and the diarrhea, I've asked the vet if she can look for some cause(s). I asked the techs to switch Cherry from the Friskies to DVM food.

I'm eager to do whatever I have to do to help her get better. She is my only living family (and her 3 cat siblings). Thank you so much for your help and support! Warmest regards, mary d :)

Jen & Squeak said:
well, unfortunately, the curves at the clinic and the hospitalization may be the source of your problem. I say this not knowing if there are any other complicating factors, BUT vet stress can cause blood glucose levels to INCREASE and so the cat ends up getting more insulin than they may actually need.

That said, it does sound like her tummy is upset; what has your vet done to determine what is going on ?

Jen
Click to expand...
 
Hi Jennifer! Oh yes, I'll keep checking our boards faithfully too! Thank you for kindly getting back to me. I shared my email as an additional contact but I will look here on our boards first. Thank you so much in advance for whatever help and advice you and the group members can provide me! Warmest regards, mary d :)
tuckers mom said:
Hi and welcome.

There are a few things I'd want to do and ask you, but are you planning on staying on the board so we can discuss options as a group? I ask simply because you posted your email address. It would be best to get advice from the group as a whole.
Click to expand...
 
Hello, Mary,

You don't seem to be getting many responses, so I'll start with some of the questions mentioned above and add my comments. (I don't post often here, but I have had a diabetic cat for four years.)

Blood tests - Has your vet run blood panels? Were there any abnormal values for kidney, thyroid or liver functions?

Dental - Are Cherry's teeth in good shape?
Comment: Many here find insulin regulation easier once any dental problems are taken care of.

Tests - Have any other tests e.g. biopsies, ultrasound, xrays been done?
Comment: Insulin needs (doses) can vary greatly if there are underlying medical complications.

Diet - You say you have been feeding mainly dry food with a little wet. You want to switch to prescription DM. Is that correct?
Comment: If at all possible, a total low-carb wet food diet is recommended by most here. Low-carb wet food lists can be found in the Health Links subforum. Many find that the wet DM is not a favorite with their cats, but there are other choices. If your cat is a stubborn dry-food feeder, there are also hints for transitioning her to wet-only food.

Appetite - How has Cherry's appetite been generally? How frequently has she been fed?

Glucose level testing - You have had curves done every two weeks at the vet's. Otherwise, you do not home-test. Is that correct? Do you have confidence in your ability to test at home?
Comment: Vet stress has already been mentioned as a cause of high blood glucose readings. Home testing with a "human" glucometer and test strips is recommended here. Again you can find information in the Health Links area. By hometesting, you will have a better idea of the effect of a specific insulin dose on Cherry's glucose levels on a day-by-day basis.

Insulin dose - Has your vet has increased the insulin dose every two weeks based on the vet's office curve? By how much was the dose increased each time?
Comment: There is some evidence that regular home curving to observe how Lantus (or other insulins) works with your cat and careful dose adjustment based on those curves (more frequently done than every two weeks) can lead to insulin regulation, even remission.

Your schedule - How often can you run curves (glucose testing every couple of hours) at home? Are you available for scheduled feedings?

These are a few of the questions I can think of. Hopefully, more experienced posters can add more. It is probably costing you quite a bit to have Cherry hospitalized for so long. Home-managed diabetes care costs can add up with the price of test strips, etc. but will probably be less in the long run.

Hopefully, your vet can give you answers about underlying health problems with Cherry. If management of her diabetes is the main problem, and you have the commitment and confidence to take on that task, you will join the hundreds on this board, past and present, who have done just that.

I really wish you and Cherry the best of luck and a quick return to health for her.

Best regards, Michele and Kelly
 
Glad you'll be staying on the board to get messages.

Did you switch food when you started the insulin? It looks like you want to switch from Friskies to prescription food? I'm wondering if you changed food when first dx, if that could be part of the belly ache.

I'd also check on whether full blood panels have been run recently, check for hyperthyroidism and check electrolytes. Cats who are not regulated and may be going to the litterbox often can lose potassium which in turn causes weight loss. Hypert kitties also have many of the same symptoms as FD but do have more weight loss.

Is the insulin your using the same vial you started with? Was it well maintained?

You think you've given lots of fur shots? Hopefully the videos showed you about tenting the skin. What size needles are you using. I prefer short needles, 5/16th in length, for me there's less chance of poking through to the other side. My little man used to be a big little man, but as he's gotten older, his skin is thinner and there's no fat left so tenting is not so easy. By using the short needles I'm more confident that he will get his insulin correctly.
 
Maybe he needs a higher dose. I'm six weeks in and Scratchy is finally starting to regulate on 4 units of Lantus twice a day. I was convinced I was giving the shots wrong at first. On 3 units twice a day he was at 469 (at the vet). They told me if 4 units didn't work he'd need more tests to see why he was resistant. After a week on 4 units he was down to 247 and had finally stopped losing weight. I know 4 units is a lot, but its what he needs at least for now. Switching to wet food might help too. My cats love EVO and it seems to agree with my kitty with IBD.

Has your vet tried a fructosamine test? It is supposed to eliminate the stress factor by measuring levels for a 2 week period with only one test.

Hang in there!
 
Welcome. Sorry I don't have a lot of time but I'll make some quick comments:

- a cat at a vet is under stress, is not eating normally, etc. For most cats, the BG results are inherently elevated by these factors.

- Gastric distress and pain can also elevate the BG; elevated BG always accompanies my Cole's diarrhea bouts.

- transition to low carb wet should be a primary goal, along with learning to hometest

- we don't know if the cat needs more insulin or less. Cherry might be in rebound from overdosing or she might actually be a cat that needs more insulin. Hometesting will answer this question if used in combination with a systematic approach to dosing.

- a fructosamine test is frankly a waste of money. It is only an average over a period of weeks. To best manage diabetes, home testing will give specific up-to-date information which can be used to evaluate dosing effectiveness.

- once the cat is better regulated, it will be able to better use the food it is eating. It should gain weight. if not, things like feeding higher-calorie foods can be done. If the appetite is poor, things like Fortiflora can be used to stimuate interest. Or an actual appetite stimulant could be used. Cyproheptadine is pretty cheap and it is very effective at getting a cat to eat. A better option might be mirtazipine which is an appetite stimulant and anti-nausea all in one. Don't know about cost though.

- squirt out a little insulin and smell it. Learn the smell -- it's pretty smelly so it's pretty easy to recognize. After giving a shot, stick your nose by the cat and smell it. Or rub your fingers around the area right where the shot was given. If you smell insulin, you will have given a full or partial "fur shot". Unfortunately you won't know how much insulin got in, so you dare not give another shot.

- has the vet been checking the cat for ketones?

best wishes,
laur
 
Hi Michele (and Kelly)! Sorry I drafted my reply to you but accidentally saved it as a draft instead of posting--sorry to say I can't find my draft to post it to you! Can you please guide me on how we can locate our saved drafts? If I can't find it I'll retype it because your questions are excellent ones! I typed and saved my answers below each of your questions and that's what I'm trying to find. Thank you so much for your helpful post and I'll keep trying to find my reply to you! :)

Michele And Kelly said:
Hello, Mary,

You don't seem to be getting many responses, so I'll start with some of the questions mentioned above and add my comments. (I don't post often here, but I have had a diabetic cat for four years.)

Blood tests - Has your vet run blood panels? Were there any abnormal values for kidney, thyroid or liver functions?

Dental - Are Cherry's teeth in good shape?
Comment: Many here find insulin regulation easier once any dental problems are taken care of.

Tests - Have any other tests e.g. biopsies, ultrasound, xrays been done?
Comment: Insulin needs (doses) can vary greatly if there are underlying medical complications.

Diet - You say you have been feeding mainly dry food with a little wet. You want to switch to prescription DM. Is that correct?
Comment: If at all possible, a total low-carb wet food diet is recommended by most here. Low-carb wet food lists can be found in the Health Links subforum. Many find that the wet DM is not a favorite with their cats, but there are other choices. If your cat is a stubborn dry-food feeder, there are also hints for transitioning her to wet-only food.

Appetite - How has Cherry's appetite been generally? How frequently has she been fed?

Glucose level testing - You have had curves done every two weeks at the vet's. Otherwise, you do not home-test. Is that correct? Do you have confidence in your ability to test at home?
Comment: Vet stress has already been mentioned as a cause of high blood glucose readings. Home testing with a "human" glucometer and test strips is recommended here. Again you can find information in the Health Links area. By hometesting, you will have a better idea of the effect of a specific insulin dose on Cherry's glucose levels on a day-by-day basis.

Insulin dose - Has your vet has increased the insulin dose every two weeks based on the vet's office curve? By how much was the dose increased each time?
Comment: There is some evidence that regular home curving to observe how Lantus (or other insulins) works with your cat and careful dose adjustment based on those curves (more frequently done than every two weeks) can lead to insulin regulation, even remission.

Your schedule - How often can you run curves (glucose testing every couple of hours) at home? Are you available for scheduled feedings?

These are a few of the questions I can think of. Hopefully, more experienced posters can add more. It is probably costing you quite a bit to have Cherry hospitalized for so long. Home-managed diabetes care costs can add up with the price of test strips, etc. but will probably be less in the long run.

Hopefully, your vet can give you answers about underlying health problems with Cherry. If management of her diabetes is the main problem, and you have the commitment and confidence to take on that task, you will join the hundreds on this board, past and present, who have done just that.

I really wish you and Cherry the best of luck and a quick return to health for her.

Best regards, Michele and Kelly
Click to expand...
 
HI Tucker's Mom! I hadn't thought about that (re: the food switch when I started the insulin). That's helpful to know that a dietary switch can cause that kind of stomach upset....

I will ask the vet about what was run in the blood panels in June or July when Cherry was diagnosed. That's a great point about the potassium loss. I hadn't thought about that. The weight loss is terrifying to me.

I think the insulin was maintained OK: the vet had switched from another kind (wish I could remember) to Lantus. We went from 1/2 a unit twice a day to 2 units twice a day. I remember getting one of those ice packs to go across the street to Walgreen's to get the Lantus. Then I put it right in the fridge. I've been careful to keep it refrigerated.

I'm sure I've been accidentally giving the fur shots...the slide show on this site is so helpful to learn the correct way to tent! I'm eager to learn to do it right.

I also have the smaller needles now with the Lantus. I'm hoping that will help too. I know it can't be easy for Cherry to be at the vet that long (almost 2 weeks), but I couldn't watch her just wasting away, crying mournfully every hour wanting to be fed, and then urinating everywhere and having those loose bowel movements and being listless. I felt I couldn't do it alone and needed that outside help. I'm determined to learn to do whatever it takes! Thank you so much for your kind help and ray of hope! :)

tuckers mom said:
Glad you'll be staying on the board to get messages.

Did you switch food when you started the insulin? It looks like you want to switch from Friskies to prescription food? I'm wondering if you changed food when first dx, if that could be part of the belly ache.

I'd also check on whether full blood panels have been run recently, check for hyperthyroidism and check electrolytes. Cats who are not regulated and may be going to the litterbox often can lose potassium which in turn causes weight loss. Hypert kitties also have many of the same symptoms as FD but do have more weight loss.

Is the insulin your using the same vial you started with? Was it well maintained?

You think you've given lots of fur shots? Hopefully the videos showed you about tenting the skin. What size needles are you using. I prefer short needles, 5/16th in length, for me there's less chance of poking through to the other side. My little man used to be a big little man, but as he's gotten older, his skin is thinner and there's no fat left so tenting is not so easy. By using the short needles I'm more confident that he will get his insulin correctly.
Click to expand...
 
Oh my gosh, Scratchy's Mom: 469?! That's scary but also you have given me a huge ray of hope in the improvement you report with 4 units! (both in blood glucose and in the weight being normalized). Thank you so much too for the tip on EVO. Cherry is a dry food junkie but I'm determined to convert her to wet and low-carb if it will help! I had not heard of a fructosamine test: thank you for the great tip! I feel hopeful again due to everyone's great help on this board! :)

Scratchy's Mom said:
Maybe he needs a higher dose. I'm six weeks in and Scratchy is finally starting to regulate on 4 units of Lantus twice a day. I was convinced I was giving the shots wrong at first. On 3 units twice a day he was at 469 (at the vet). They told me if 4 units didn't work he'd need more tests to see why he was resistant. After a week on 4 units he was down to 247 and had finally stopped losing weight. I know 4 units is a lot, but its what he needs at least for now. Switching to wet food might help too. My cats love EVO and it seems to agree with my kitty with IBD.

Has your vet tried a fructosamine test? It is supposed to eliminate the stress factor by measuring levels for a 2 week period with only one test.

Hang in there!
Click to expand...
 
HI Michele! Sorry I couldn't find my original saved reply--was happy to redo it. Thank you so much for your very helpful note! Here is my reply below to your great questions:

Blood tests - Has your vet run blood panels? Were there any abnormal values for kidney, thyroid or liver functions?

***Yes; luckily nothing negative turned up (I was worried about kidneys too.)

Dental - Are Cherry's teeth in good shape?
Comment: Many here find insulin regulation easier once any dental problems are taken care of.

***Glad you asked, Michele: Cherry had to have 2 teeth pulled in early August. The vet and I were hopeful that was the cause (underlying infection) but it doesn’t seem to have budged her blood glucose numbers downward even after healing from the tooth extraction.

Tests - Have any other tests e.g. biopsies, ultrasound, xrays been done?
Comment: Insulin needs (doses) can vary greatly if there are underlying medical complications.

***I recall she did have an ultrasound this summer but nothing amiss turned up.

Diet - You say you have been feeding mainly dry food with a little wet. You want to switch to prescription DM. Is that correct?
Comment: If at all possible, a total low-carb wet food diet is recommended by most here. Low-carb wet food lists can be found in the Health Links subforum. Many find that the wet DM is not a favorite with their cats, but there are other choices. If your cat is a stubborn dry-food feeder, there are also hints for transitioning her to wet-only food.

***Yes, I’m impressed with what I’ve read on this site about low-carb wet food and how it has turned things around! Cherry is a dry food addict but I’m willing to do what it takes to transition her to wet. I’m glad I can find lists of other equivalent foods (in case she won’t eat DM) on this site too.

Appetite - How has Cherry's appetite been generally? How frequently has she been fed?

*** So glad you asked: she would come over to me just about every hour, crying mournfully and wanting to be fed. Eating ravenously, and then urinating a lot, including increasingly outside the litter box, and lots of loose stools. But at the same time rapidly losing weight, down to 6 pounds where she used to steadily weigh 12.

Glucose level testing - You have had curves done every two weeks at the vet's. Otherwise, you do not home-test. Is that correct? Do you have confidence in your ability to test at home?
Comment: Vet stress has already been mentioned as a cause of high blood glucose readings. Home testing with a "human" glucometer and test strips is recommended here. Again you can find information in the Health Links area. By hometesting, you will have a better idea of the effect of a specific insulin dose on Cherry's glucose levels on a day-by-day basis.

***I’m so glad there is information about it on this site! The vet asked me if I would be willing to learn and I said “Absolutely yes!” They have ordered a glucometer for me and will teach me how to use it when Cherry is discharged.

Insulin dose - Has your vet has increased the insulin dose every two weeks based on the vet's office curve? By how much was the dose increased each time?
Comment: There is some evidence that regular home curving to observe how Lantus (or other insulins) works with your cat and careful dose adjustment based on those curves (more frequently done than every two weeks) can lead to insulin regulation, even remission.

***We went from ½ a unit of the other original insulin twice a day (sorry I can’t remember its name) to one and then two units twice a day. When we couldn’t get below 400 the vet switched to Lantus: first one and then 2 units twice a day. And now they are giving her 3 units of Lantus twice a day at the vet’s, since she was hospitalized last week. She finally got below 400 for the first time last week while there.

Your schedule - How often can you run curves (glucose testing every couple of hours) at home? Are you available for scheduled feedings?

*** Luckily I teach online and work from home—so I can make it work!

These are a few of the questions I can think of. Hopefully, more experienced posters can add more. It is probably costing you quite a bit to have Cherry hospitalized for so long. Home-managed diabetes care costs can add up with the price of test strips, etc. but will probably be less in the long run.

***It’s worth it to me: an investment in the recovery and well-being of my soulmate Cherry!

Hopefully, your vet can give you answers about underlying health problems with Cherry. If management of her diabetes is the main problem, and you have the commitment and confidence to take on that task, you will join the hundreds on this board, past and present, who have done just that.

*** Oh yes, you and everyone else on this board has reignited my hope and determination not to give up! I’m determined to learn and do whatever it takes! Thank you so much again, Michele (and Kelly!)

I really wish you and Cherry the best of luck and a quick return to health for her.

Best regards, Michele and Kelly


Michele And Kelly said:
Hello, Mary,

You don't seem to be getting many responses, so I'll start with some of the questions mentioned above and add my comments. (I don't post often here, but I have had a diabetic cat for four years.)

Blood tests - Has your vet run blood panels? Were there any abnormal values for kidney, thyroid or liver functions?

Dental - Are Cherry's teeth in good shape?
Comment: Many here find insulin regulation easier once any dental problems are taken care of.

Tests - Have any other tests e.g. biopsies, ultrasound, xrays been done?
Comment: Insulin needs (doses) can vary greatly if there are underlying medical complications.

Diet - You say you have been feeding mainly dry food with a little wet. You want to switch to prescription DM. Is that correct?
Comment: If at all possible, a total low-carb wet food diet is recommended by most here. Low-carb wet food lists can be found in the Health Links subforum. Many find that the wet DM is not a favorite with their cats, but there are other choices. If your cat is a stubborn dry-food feeder, there are also hints for transitioning her to wet-only food.

Appetite - How has Cherry's appetite been generally? How frequently has she been fed?

Glucose level testing - You have had curves done every two weeks at the vet's. Otherwise, you do not home-test. Is that correct? Do you have confidence in your ability to test at home?
Comment: Vet stress has already been mentioned as a cause of high blood glucose readings. Home testing with a "human" glucometer and test strips is recommended here. Again you can find information in the Health Links area. By hometesting, you will have a better idea of the effect of a specific insulin dose on Cherry's glucose levels on a day-by-day basis.

Insulin dose - Has your vet has increased the insulin dose every two weeks based on the vet's office curve? By how much was the dose increased each time?
Comment: There is some evidence that regular home curving to observe how Lantus (or other insulins) works with your cat and careful dose adjustment based on those curves (more frequently done than every two weeks) can lead to insulin regulation, even remission.

Your schedule - How often can you run curves (glucose testing every couple of hours) at home? Are you available for scheduled feedings?

These are a few of the questions I can think of. Hopefully, more experienced posters can add more. It is probably costing you quite a bit to have Cherry hospitalized for so long. Home-managed diabetes care costs can add up with the price of test strips, etc. but will probably be less in the long run.

Hopefully, your vet can give you answers about underlying health problems with Cherry. If management of her diabetes is the main problem, and you have the commitment and confidence to take on that task, you will join the hundreds on this board, past and present, who have done just that.

I really wish you and Cherry the best of luck and a quick return to health for her.

Best regards, Michele and Kelly
Click to expand...
 
Hi Laur! Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and suggestions with me! I'm so sorry that Cole has had diarrhea as well. That makes sense what you say about the circular effect of the gastric problems and elevated BG.

I am hopeful to know that once the blood glucose is regulated, that this will help the weight gain. I'm glad to know there are some appetite stimulants. I'll ask the vet about them. I can see how being at the vet would cause stress.

The vet asked me if I would be willing to learn to use a glucometer to hometest. My immediate reply was "Absolutely!" They have ordered one for me and will teach me how to use it when Cherry is discharged.

That's a great tip too on how to recognize the "fur shots" (now I know what to call it!). I hope I can get better at doing the shots correctly. The slide show on this site was an eye-opener for me. I've watched several times and hope I can learn to do it right.

I can't begin to thank everyone on this board for your great help and support! I'm determined to do what it takes to help Cherry get better! I will ask about checking for ketones: I remember the vet did check earlier this summer when I was going back for the twice-monthly curve tests. But maybe it's time for another one.

laur+danny+cole said:
Welcome. Sorry I don't have a lot of time but I'll make some quick comments:

- a cat at a vet is under stress, is not eating normally, etc. For most cats, the BG results are inherently elevated by these factors.

- Gastric distress and pain can also elevate the BG; elevated BG always accompanies my Cole's diarrhea bouts.

- transition to low carb wet should be a primary goal, along with learning to hometest

- we don't know if the cat needs more insulin or less. Cherry might be in rebound from overdosing or she might actually be a cat that needs more insulin. Hometesting will answer this question if used in combination with a systematic approach to dosing.

- a fructosamine test is frankly a waste of money. It is only an average over a period of weeks. To best manage diabetes, home testing will give specific up-to-date information which can be used to evaluate dosing effectiveness.

- once the cat is better regulated, it will be able to better use the food it is eating. It should gain weight. if not, things like feeding higher-calorie foods can be done. If the appetite is poor, things like Fortiflora can be used to stimuate interest. Or an actual appetite stimulant could be used. Cyproheptadine is pretty cheap and it is very effective at getting a cat to eat. A better option might be mirtazipine which is an appetite stimulant and anti-nausea all in one. Don't know about cost though.

- squirt out a little insulin and smell it. Learn the smell -- it's pretty smelly so it's pretty easy to recognize. After giving a shot, stick your nose by the cat and smell it. Or rub your fingers around the area right where the shot was given. If you smell insulin, you will have given a full or partial "fur shot". Unfortunately you won't know how much insulin got in, so you dare not give another shot.

- has the vet been checking the cat for ketones?

best wishes,
laur
Click to expand...
 
Good morning, Mary,

Thank you for your thorough replies. Good to know that Cherry seems to have no underlying health problems, yet still worrisome about the weight loss and other symptoms. Perhaps your vet will have more answers after the hospitalization and, hopefully, observation.

From my limited one-cat experience and four + years of reading this board, I think your priorities now are learning to home test and getting Cherry to change her diet. I was glad to read that your vet is in favor of hometesting and willing to help you learn how. Some cats are easy (mine was), while others are more challenging. The good thing is that this board has many experienced posters who can help you along the way.

Your vet has probably ordered you the Alphatrak. If you find the ongoing cost a bit much, "human" glucometers and test strips can readily be used. A long-time member did a series of comparison tests on the different glucometer brands and found the variances acceptable, as compared to the Alphatrak.

Diet Transitioning - This must obviously be most concerning to you because of Cherry's weight loss. The sticky on transitioning from wet to dry can be found here. Since Cherry has lost so much weight, she must eat, so this might be tricky. Laur gave some tips above, including using higher carb wet foods if necessary. You will have to become an expert at reading the tiny print on cat food cans! (Though the food lists on this site take care of a lot of that for you). My secret was microwaving the food a little and, especially, parmesan cheese sprinkled on top.

I am sure you are anxious to have Cherry home, and she will, if she is like most cats, do better once at home. Please let us know how she and you are doing. Come back with any problems, questions or frustrations, and the posters here will be only too willing to help.

Once again, good luck and better days for you both,

Regards, Michele and Kelly

p.s. Re: saving drafts - no expert here, but there is a button for save at the bottom of the reply text box right next to Submit. To access the saved draft, go to User Control Panel at the top right of the page. On the left panel, there is a heading "Manage drafts". Your saved draft can be loaded and edited. (I just tried it, and it works!)
 
I'm concerned about the bowel issues here and wonder if there are more tests that can be run to determine whether it is IBD or something else....
 
Jen & Squeak said:
I'm concerned about the bowel issues here and wonder if there are more tests that can be run to determine whether it is IBD or something else....
Click to expand...

When Spooky (GA) came out of remission, loose stools was one of his problems. Once his glucose levels were controlled by the insulin, the problem stopped.

I think that it was a cycle of drinking so much that it caused the loose stools; when the water consumption level dropped, the problem resolved.

As to needing a higher dose of insulin, Spooky was also called insulin resistant. He actually wasn't, just needed to find the right type and dose. For him, it was the BCP (a bovine based insulin very similar to a cat's own insulin) and a much lower dose than indicated at the vet's. In fact, each time the dose was increased, he would drop for a day or two, then rebound to a high, flat line. This gave the appearance of no response. It's a form of rebound, but a lesser known form.

As I lowered the dose about every two or three days, he actually started having better numbers.

I am totally out of touch with today's insulins, but the symptoms described are similar to what we experienced.

Hope this helps a bit.

Lisa and Spooky (GA)
 
Hi Michele and Kelly! Thank you so much on all counts! I really appreciate the tip on how to recover my saved posts. I couldn't figure it out last night. Now I will know how to do it and not have to recreate my message :)

Thank you too for the tip on the glucometer and the brand. I will be interested to see if it's Alphatrak! I hope I can learn quickly how to use it.

I do worry about Cherry's weight loss. I wonder how much is normal to regain in a short time (close to 2 weeks) that Cherry has been hospitalized. I really appreciate the link and the tips on getting her to eat. The parmesan cheese is creative. I never would have thought of that! I'm trying to find some encouragement that at least she has maintained her weight and not lost any more. I must say I was a little surprised that the vet and vet techs didn't seem to take the weight loss as seriously as I did. I had to keep pointing it out in terms of my concern. I kind of feel right now that I should get a second opinion, although I know it will stress Cherry to be dragged to yet another vet. Quite a Catch-22, isn't it?! The stress from being at the vets vs. not doing well at home and having to be taken to the vet (sigh...).

I should know more tomorrow night about the curve test results. I hope it's OK to let everyone know when I find something out. With any luck I'll be able to bring Cherry home soon. I can't begin to thank everyone here for giving me so many rays of hope with practical advice! Warmest regards, mary d :)

Michele And Kelly said:
Good morning, Mary,

Thank you for your thorough replies. Good to know that Cherry seems to have no underlying health problems, yet still worrisome about the weight loss and other symptoms. Perhaps your vet will have more answers after the hospitalization and, hopefully, observation.

From my limited one-cat experience and four + years of reading this board, I think your priorities now are learning to home test and getting Cherry to change her diet. I was glad to read that your vet is in favor of hometesting and willing to help you learn how. Some cats are easy (mine was), while others are more challenging. The good thing is that this board has many experienced posters who can help you along the way.

Your vet has probably ordered you the Alphatrak. If you find the ongoing cost a bit much, "human" glucometers and test strips can readily be used. A long-time member did a series of comparison tests on the different glucometer brands and found the variances acceptable, as compared to the Alphatrak.

Diet Transitioning - This must obviously be most concerning to you because of Cherry's weight loss. The sticky on transitioning from wet to dry can be found here. Since Cherry has lost so much weight, she must eat, so this might be tricky. Laur gave some tips above, including using higher carb wet foods if necessary. You will have to become an expert at reading the tiny print on cat food cans! (Though the food lists on this site take care of a lot of that for you). My secret was microwaving the food a little and, especially, parmesan cheese sprinkled on top.

I am sure you are anxious to have Cherry home, and she will, if she is like most cats, do better once at home. Please let us know how she and you are doing. Come back with any problems, questions or frustrations, and the posters here will be only too willing to help.

Once again, good luck and better days for you both,

Regards, Michele and Kelly

p.s. Re: saving drafts - no expert here, but there is a button for save at the bottom of the reply text box right next to Submit. To access the saved draft, go to User Control Panel at the top right of the page. On the left panel, there is a heading "Manage drafts". Your saved draft can be loaded and edited. (I just tried it, and it works!)
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Oh yes, Jen, that's what I worry about too with the bowel issues. I have asked several times if there are other tests they can do to see if there is a parallel gastrointestinal problem complicating the diabetes. But I haven't had much follow-up from the vet on this. The vet seems to think it's being caused by the diabetes but I'm not so sure. I am seriously considering a second opinion and asking about IBD testing as part of that second opinion. Thank you for validating my concern about this! Warmest regards, mary d :)

Jen & Squeak said:
I'm concerned about the bowel issues here and wonder if there are more tests that can be run to determine whether it is IBD or something else....
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This is a very hopeful message, Lisa and Spooky! You reminded me that Cherry had been drinking a lot too. Just knowing that Spooky recovered from this similar problem gives me hope that Cherry will too.

I was interested in what you shared about another kind of insulin. I didn't realize that having to find the right kind and dose can be part of it. I'm totally willing to keep trying and do whatever it takes.

Thank you so much for sharing this helpful information with me, including the 'happy beginning' of Spooky's own recovery from these loose stools! Warmest regards, mary d :)

Lisa and Spooky (GA) said:
Jen & Squeak said:
I'm concerned about the bowel issues here and wonder if there are more tests that can be run to determine whether it is IBD or something else....
Click to expand...

When Spooky (GA) came out of remission, loose stools was one of his problems. Once his glucose levels were controlled by the insulin, the problem stopped.

I think that it was a cycle of drinking so much that it caused the loose stools; when the water consumption level dropped, the problem resolved.

As to needing a higher dose of insulin, Spooky was also called insulin resistant. He actually wasn't, just needed to find the right type and dose. For him, it was the BCP (a bovine based insulin very similar to a cat's own insulin) and a much lower dose than indicated at the vet's. In fact, each time the dose was increased, he would drop for a day or two, then rebound to a high, flat line. This gave the appearance of no response. It's a form of rebound, but a lesser known form.

As I lowered the dose about every two or three days, he actually started having better numbers.

I am totally out of touch with today's insulins, but the symptoms described are similar to what we experienced.

Hope this helps a bit.

Lisa and Spooky (GA)
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Hi I'm relatively new to this board. I only can tell you this: Home testing is the way to go along with being on this board. I found the Target meter and stripes to be the cheapest. I switched the food to fancy feast based on the low carb list found on this site. My cat -Khan had lost a lot of weight. His stool form was not good, urine output very large..mostly outside the box. The glucose curves in the vet office - NO WAY!! never doing it again. Khan went through it 3x and the last time home he looked so bad I had a discussion with my DVM- I was very upset. Next time I took Khan to the vet he peed in the carrier was breathing hard and shaking. I only took him to get a weight and dicuss insulin options. The vet agreed the clinic BG curves are NOT the most accurate- he agreed to work with me on reviewing the BG numbers via email to him. I told the vtech: why would I give my cat an insulin shot without knowing the BG numbers? i wouldn't do it to myself why would I do it to an animal?.. boy she didn't like this but you know I was calm and told her we can agree to disagree and I look forward to discussing my home testing options with my vet. if he didn't want to work with me I was determined to find a vet that would. RESULT: My cat is gaining weight, his stool has become solid the more regulated he is. His urine output has greatly decreased.Khan isn't regulated yet but I am waiting for the Lantus from Canada to come in. I have HIGH hopes this will be the answer for him! I'm new to treating a diabetic cat but I feel this webpage is the best in helping me figure it all out--better than my vet-but still have my vet in the loop. keep close to this webpage and home test-- lets hope the soft stool resolves on its own once the cat is more regulated. :)
 
Hi everyone, I just got a call from the vet. She says that Cherry just can't gain weight and her blood glucose has shot back up to the 600s--then dropped down to the 400s but didn't get any lower. They have had her on 3 units of Lantus but it isn't making a difference. She can't get above 6 lbs. 2 ounces. She is really going for the DVM cat food and eating it ravenously. Still loose stools and they have not gotten the diarrhea under control. They said they suspect IBD but that the treatment contradicts the treatment for diabetes. Her spirits are very good: she is lively and playful. The vet recommended I consider the hard decision that no one wants to face. I asked for time to think about it and they are going to keep her at the clinic for the weekend. I would welcome everyone's thoughts here. Thank you all so very much for your kind help and support.

pepperthecat1969 said:
Hi I'm relatively new to this board. I only can tell you this: Home testing is the way to go along with being on this board. I found the Target meter and stripes to be the cheapest. I switched the food to fancy feast based on the low carb list found on this site. My cat -Khan had lost a lot of weight. His stool form was not good, urine output very large..mostly outside the box. The glucose curves in the vet office - NO WAY!! never doing it again. Khan went through it 3x and the last time home he looked so bad I had a discussion with my DVM- I was very upset. Next time I took Khan to the vet he peed in the carrier was breathing hard and shaking. I only took him to get a weight and dicuss insulin options. The vet agreed the clinic BG curves are NOT the most accurate- he agreed to work with me on reviewing the BG numbers via email to him. I told the vtech: why would I give my cat an insulin shot without knowing the BG numbers? i wouldn't do it to myself why would I do it to an animal?.. boy she didn't like this but you know I was calm and told her we can agree to disagree and I look forward to discussing my home testing options with my vet. if he didn't want to work with me I was determined to find a vet that would. RESULT: My cat is gaining weight, his stool has become solid the more regulated he is. His urine output has greatly decreased.Khan isn't regulated yet but I am waiting for the Lantus from Canada to come in. I have HIGH hopes this will be the answer for him! I'm new to treating a diabetic cat but I feel this webpage is the best in helping me figure it all out--better than my vet-but still have my vet in the loop. keep close to this webpage and home test-- lets hope the soft stool resolves on its own once the cat is more regulated. :)
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One of the vets within the clinic I go to suggested the same thing to me.. No way I wouldn't do it.. that is when I found this site.. I began home testing and feeding fancy feast. He isn't regulated but he is gaining weight and he is grooming himself and has overall improved.
 
Thank you so very, very much!! I'm glad now that I didn't make a rash decision. I just can't give up: not with her spirits the way they are. May I ask what flavor of Fancy Feast you are feeding him? I am determined to do everything I possibly can for Cherry, especially given her spirits!

pepperthecat1969 said:
One of the vets within the clinic I go to suggested the same thing to me.. No way I wouldn't do it.. that is when I found this site.. I began home testing and feeding fancy feast. He isn't regulated but he is gaining weight and he is grooming himself and has overall improved.
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Curious.. how familiar is your vet with Lantus? Since that is a long acting insulin..

Since I am new I can't direct you on how to post a topic with the HOT candle above..but if you are looking for help on this decision POST HOT and Mark it with the candle..maybe list-- VET suggests XYZ..however you need to state it.

request advice.. see what others have to say.. there are many here that know what they are talking about ..since they themselves have been there. Maybe someone can send you a private message and gain your permission to call you to discuss?
 
Help - Cat Given Death Sentence by Current Vet

Thank you so much for getting back to me so quickly! I also wondered if this vet is familiar with Lantus. My strong sense was that I may not be getting the most expert advice and this clinic may not be as experienced with diabetes. I would very much welcome a private message and chance to chat by phone too, and so grateful to anyone who can advise me!

pepperthecat1969 said:
Curious.. how familiar is your vet with Lantus? Since that is a long acting insulin..

Since I am new I can't direct you on how to post a topic with the HOT candle above..but if you are looking for help on this decision POST HOT and Mark it with the candle..maybe list-- VET suggests XYZ..however you need to state it.

request advice.. see what others have to say.. there are many here that know what they are talking about ..since they themselves have been there. Maybe someone can send you a private message and gain your permission to call you to discuss?
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Fancy Feast -low Carb (under 10% carb) --no gluten list .. is on this webpage.. let me find it and send it to you.. Maybe you don't want your cat at the vet all weekend? maybe it would be better to take her home, home test and get her feedign the fancy feast? I believe the human touch and love calms the cat and also plays a HUGE factor is the recovery.
 
I actually can't give too much advice since I am VERY new to this myself. I can only share what my experience is. I know someone will post soon to help you.. keep here. I'll send you the food list as soon as I find it.
 
Ok silly me.. go to the very main page ..look under EDUCATION and click on DIET.. there you will down the pages you can open for food listing.. Binkys is what I followed.
 
You are terrific to be so helpful to me: thank you so very much on all counts! I had the same thought about her being at the vet and the desirability of bringing her home. I already have discreetly made an appointment for her at another vet (where I hear they are much more knowledgeable about diabetes) for Monday afternoon. I will see if I can get her checked out of the first place sooner than that. Thank you too for kindly pointing me to the food list!

pepperthecat1969 said:
Ok silly me.. go to the very main page ..look under EDUCATION and click on DIET.. there you will down the pages you can open for food listing.. Binkys is what I followed.
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Hi, Mary,

Sorry you did not have more encouraging news from your vet. I think you are doing the right thing by seeking a second opinion from a vet more experienced in diabetes (hopefully feline diabetes). I think you should ask your current vet for copies of Cherry's bloodwork (my vet always gives me a printout), a list of any medications used to treat her diarrhea, her glucose curves, and other relevant medical information. You say you want to be discreet, but I would be politely upfront about seeking a second opinion, before considering euthanasia. This clinic has had two weeks and many of your $$$ to treat Cherry and hasn't been able to make progress, it seems, in any area. I am not sure you owe any discretion.

Hopefully, you can get more definitive answers from the second opinion. Home testing and diet change will still be crucial, though. You might want to read this reference on hyperglycemia found on the Petdiabetes Wiki. It is older, but quite thorough as to possible causes. The hyperglycemia reference starts on page 7 of the pdf.

Keeping you and Cherry in my thoughts. Please check back with us.

Best regards, Michele
 
Hi Michele! Your timing is so perfect with your reaffirming message! I just came from visiting Cherry at the first vet. She is lively, alert and playful. She does not at all look like a cat who has run out of quality of life! Interestingly, I found out in talking with the vet techs that even they are questioning the vet's "recommendation" regarding euthanasia based on their observations of Cherry. To me this really confirms what you said about my not owing them any discretion.

I also found out something interesting based on what I am learning from this wonderful website. They have been letting Cherry free-feed on Science Diet dry food throughout the day. They say they have been giving her 1/2 a can morning and evening of the Purima DM diabetes canned food which she eats in its entirety. But the free-feeding of the dry food was a red flag to me based on what I have read on this site. They even gave her Friskie's dry at one point (which almost made me groan!)! Not surprisingly, they told me that when they gave her the Friskie's dry food she had really bad diarrhea: please forgive my bluntness, but the Friskie's went right through her. Then they started leaving Science Diet dry food in her bowl during the day. They also said they have been giving her 3 units of Lantus 1/2 an hour after her morning and evening canned DM diabetes food.

I believe the diet they have been feeding her is the culprit and this is why they said her blood glucose has stayed high (they said the curve test ran between 600 and 400). Also, I wonder if this is behind the IBD that the vet "thinks" she has. When I politely asked today if there was some way to diagnose the IBD for sure the vet became (in my opinion) a bit short with me. She said things like "It could also be pancreatic cancer which can be diagnosed with a biopsy but I'm not going to open up a cat to take that sample." (I kind of recoiled when she said that to me.)

I was also told that the "only" thing they can do if it's IBD is give steroids which a diabetic cat can't get. Somehow I am skeptical of this too. Oh, and I was told by the vet "Since she's in the 600s we can't get her regulated and if we can't do it, you won't be able to do it at home."

I am more and more convinced I did the right thing not to agree to the euthanasia this afternoon. I am glad I am going to seek the second opinion. I am very eager above all to give the home testing and the diet that you recommend on this website a try. I have a feeling that it may even help the IBD and find it hard to believe that steroids are the only treatment.

I can't thank everyone enough for your caring, expertise and support. The cat I saw tonight definitely has life left in her. I hope it's OK to keep everyone posted! Thank you again! :)

Michele And Kelly said:
Hi, Mary,

Sorry you did not have more encouraging news from your vet. I think you are doing the right thing by seeking a second opinion from a vet more experienced in diabetes (hopefully feline diabetes). I think you should ask your current vet for copies of Cherry's bloodwork (my vet always gives me a printout), a list of any medications used to treat her diarrhea, her glucose curves, and other relevant medical information. You say you want to be discreet, but I would be politely upfront about seeking a second opinion, before considering euthanasia. This clinic has had two weeks and many of your $$$ to treat Cherry and hasn't been able to make progress, it seems, in any area. I am not sure you owe any discretion.

Hopefully, you can get more definitive answers from the second opinion. Home testing and diet change will still be crucial, though. You might want to read this reference on hyperglycemia found on the Petdiabetes Wiki. It is older, but quite thorough as to possible causes. The hyperglycemia reference starts on page 7 of the pdf.

Keeping you and Cherry in my thoughts. Please check back with us.

Best regards, Michele
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UGHHHH!!! How frustrating!!!! Knowledge is power back by confident. This is your baby you are talking about and fighting for life. It is alright to agree to disagree with the treatment protocol and diagnosis. This is your dollar. That vet is not looking to be your life long vet- if she was she would ask for your thoughts and how you are feeling- take the time and open the air up for you to speak comfortably about this site and your thoughts on the treatment protocol. She would partner with you to do what is best for your baby. It is difficult to speak against a person that is supposely more educated than yourself in regards to veterinary care, however- go with your gut feeling- know that just because someone has a degree does not make then an expert. There are many vets that are AWESOME but just like all people there are some that do not know when to reach out to other (people) vets for advice or directly tell the client this is an area of expertise I am not experienced enough in. You are doing GREAT by reading everything you can! Bring your questions to that second vet monday. In my opinon (ok opinions are like #$%# & everyone has one so take this for whatever it is worth)--this is what I would do:
1. Obtain a copy of all your cat's records, if asked why say you would like it for your files, if there is a pushback just state politely -I did pay for the service didn't I OR I have a friend that is going to vet school and I'm interested in her opinion sort of like a case study for her or be honest --I'm seeking a second opinon OR just request the records be faxed to the second clinic. This occurs ALL the time believe me.. REALLY believe me on this one..
2. Read everything you can on this site- keep asking for advice since the people on here that are experience will guide you.
3. Stay confident that your baby will get better and you are DETERMINED to find a vet that will partner with you on this journey. My vet is not familiar at all with Lantus however he agreed to monitor my cat via email and told me directly he was familiar with Lantus and commended me on my determination on helping my cat. His goal is to become educated with Lantus through my cat's journey so he can help other clients with diabetic cats that come through his clinic. I will be sending him my spreadsheet, once I get the Lantus I will most likely be talking with him daily or every other day via email.
4. Once in the room with that second vet- set the conversation in such a way that you are confident in what you know regarding feline diabetes however respect the vet's education and expereince so you are looking for a vet that will partner with you on this journey. You want a vet that will respect the fact you will be home monitoring however need the vet to review the BG numbers as well-maybe even via email on spreadsheet? ask--is this something that is possible?
5. You may want to say-- I'm not one to blog however I found an excellent site on feline diabetes that has really educated me/ Ask the vet how much experience he/she has had with feline diabetes, specifically Lantus -insulin. What are his/her thoughts on low carb wet diet for diabetic cats? what about non prescription food diet such as fancy feast- Ok - vet doesn't agree..ok fine lets agree to disagree (smile).
6. Let the second vet know you are very upset on how your cat has been treated and that you have lost some confidence in trusting what is told to you as "the only option" for treatment. You hope that he/she can partner with you to gain full confidence once again and work together to gain your cat's health back.
-- I know I was blunt but polite with my vet- I was very nervous about how I was coming across but it was my cat's life and my cat is my baby and it is ME that must speak for him. It is my dollar and most importantly it is a LIFE we are discussing not some color of paint for my living room (that made him laugh).
You know another thing I have learned from just being a mom--use this statement: "I hear what you are saying however that doesn't work (or sit well) with me" I have used it so many times with my vtech conversations I am amazed on how quickly the person stops trying to convince me their way is the ONLY right way... Good luck :) :) :)
 
I am so very grateful for your terrific tips on what to do with both vets! I have to tell you, I finally 'ransomed' my baby Cherry from the first vet today. And I am so very relieved that I didn't give in to that pressure to have her euthanized. She is so relaxed and happy back home! No diarrhea at all since she got back. I have thrown away all the dry food and have stopped free feeding. She ate 1/2 a can of the DM wet food and started to groom herself. Then took a nap but with us while I was watching TV--didn't hide and sulk like a critically ill cat would.

Also at the vet they told me she was up to 6 lbs. 5 ounces today. When I expressed relief and joy at this, their reaction was "eh..." like so what? And--everyone on this board will be nodding when I share the following. They had promised to get me a glucometer and teach me how to use it. When they didn't mention it today, when they discharged Cherry, I brought it up myself. You should have seen the reaction of the vet tech. Sad eyes and a sigh and "Well, I know we talked about it, but...there's probably no reason..." What?! They basically had Cherry dead and buried. Opposition to hometesting: sounds painfully familiar from the posts I've read here on this site.

I am so glad I found this board and so very grateful for terrific advice like yours that I've been receiving from everyone here. All of you have literally saved Cherry's life. It was your information and advice that caused me to stand firm and not give in to the pressure to euthanize Cherry.

I will now know what to do on Monday when I see the new vet. I have heard great things about her locally and that she is far more patient-centered than my current one. Also a smaller, calmer clinic than the present one which has a hectic, frenetic feel to it. And that is also important in healing.

Great relief at having my baby out of there and great gratitude to everyone here for teaching me not to give up!! :)

pepperthecat1969 said:
UGHHHH!!! How frustrating!!!! Knowledge is power back by confident. This is your baby you are talking about and fighting for life. It is alright to agree to disagree with the treatment protocol and diagnosis. This is your dollar. That vet is not looking to be your life long vet- if she was she would ask for your thoughts and how you are feeling- take the time and open the air up for you to speak comfortably about this site and your thoughts on the treatment protocol. She would partner with you to do what is best for your baby. It is difficult to speak against a person that is supposely more educated than yourself in regards to veterinary care, however- go with your gut feeling- know that just because someone has a degree does not make then an expert. There are many vets that are AWESOME but just like all people there are some that do not know when to reach out to other (people) vets for advice or directly tell the client this is an area of expertise I am not experienced enough in. You are doing GREAT by reading everything you can! Bring your questions to that second vet monday. In my opinon (ok opinions are like #$%# & everyone has one so take this for whatever it is worth)--this is what I would do:
1. Obtain a copy of all your cat's records, if asked why say you would like it for your files, if there is a pushback just state politely -I did pay for the service didn't I OR I have a friend that is going to vet school and I'm interested in her opinion sort of like a case study for her or be honest --I'm seeking a second opinon OR just request the records be faxed to the second clinic. This occurs ALL the time believe me.. REALLY believe me on this one..
2. Read everything you can on this site- keep asking for advice since the people on here that are experience will guide you.
3. Stay confident that your baby will get better and you are DETERMINED to find a vet that will partner with you on this journey. My vet is not familiar at all with Lantus however he agreed to monitor my cat via email and told me directly he was familiar with Lantus and commended me on my determination on helping my cat. His goal is to become educated with Lantus through my cat's journey so he can help other clients with diabetic cats that come through his clinic. I will be sending him my spreadsheet, once I get the Lantus I will most likely be talking with him daily or every other day via email.
4. Once in the room with that second vet- set the conversation in such a way that you are confident in what you know regarding feline diabetes however respect the vet's education and expereince so you are looking for a vet that will partner with you on this journey. You want a vet that will respect the fact you will be home monitoring however need the vet to review the BG numbers as well-maybe even via email on spreadsheet? ask--is this something that is possible?
5. You may want to say-- I'm not one to blog however I found an excellent site on feline diabetes that has really educated me/ Ask the vet how much experience he/she has had with feline diabetes, specifically Lantus -insulin. What are his/her thoughts on low carb wet diet for diabetic cats? what about non prescription food diet such as fancy feast- Ok - vet doesn't agree..ok fine lets agree to disagree (smile).
6. Let the second vet know you are very upset on how your cat has been treated and that you have lost some confidence in trusting what is told to you as "the only option" for treatment. You hope that he/she can partner with you to gain full confidence once again and work together to gain your cat's health back.
-- I know I was blunt but polite with my vet- I was very nervous about how I was coming across but it was my cat's life and my cat is my baby and it is ME that must speak for him. It is my dollar and most importantly it is a LIFE we are discussing not some color of paint for my living room (that made him laugh).
You know another thing I have learned from just being a mom--use this statement: "I hear what you are saying however that doesn't work (or sit well) with me" I have used it so many times with my vtech conversations I am amazed on how quickly the person stops trying to convince me their way is the ONLY right way... Good luck :) :) :)
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Good morning, Mary,

So glad that you have "rescued" Cherry and that she seems to be in such good spirits. It's really good news that her diarrhea seems to be getting resolved. Your next priority is getting a glucometer and learning to test her. I'm sure you've already done lots of reading on these pages about that.

Since she is going cold turkey on the dry food, this becomes even more important. If you haven't come across Dr. Lisa's pages yet, I really encourage you to read them. Her page on diabetes has a strong message about monitoring the insulin dose once dry food has been removed (scroll down to the STOP! sign). This is not to alarm you, just to make you aware of the relationship between blood glucose numbers and dry food.

It is good news that you are seeing the new vet tomorrow. Hopefully, the new clinic can help you wih testing and dosage. With best wishes for Cherry's continued improvement, please get back to us for any help with testing, etc.

Bye for now,

Michele and Kelly

p.s. If you do have any problems with getting a glucometer and using it, it might be wise to start a new thread with a new subject title e.g. Help with Hometesting, or Choosing a Meter. That might direct more eyes to your post. And, for the sake of saving scrolling time, you probably don't need to quote the entire text of the person you are replying to. :mrgreen:
 
It sounds awesome that your cat is home and things look more promising. I have learned with my diabetic Silky that the animal hospital environment becomes chaos on her glucose levels. I guess with some cats the stresses of being anywhere else other than good ole comfy "home" are simply overwhelming. Maybe Cherry is sensitive to the extent Silky is? I don't even bothering boarding Silky at the hospital on the rare occasions I go out of town for a few days. Getting her insulin twice a day in the hospital makes her see 450 - 550 levels. Having a trusted friend that knows Silky come to my Condo and give her insulin once a day, she may creep up to 250 by the time I get back. I'm never gone more than 3 days (2 or 3 times a year) and get her right back on her routine and management as soon as I get back. I just want to illustrate the profound effect of the stresses of Silky being in a different environment. I hope Cherry keeps chilling and getting healthier back in her loving home and do get that home testing going. NO VET can come close to what you can do with home monitoring. With the amount of insulin they would prescribe Silky, based on a hospital glucose curve, the love of my life would be in a coma and dead in a matter of days. I have called and questioned many vets in my area. Fired them, hung up on them, have been hung up on and 'told off' by one that thought i was crazy and said there was no way I would ever be a patient of theirs, and told me to "keep looking", and I did exactly that. cat(2)_steam . I've been told by one vet that I was working too hard and I should just try to keep Silky in the 300's or less and all would be good. Blah to that. Anyway, persistence and gaining knowledge pays off and I now have a wonderful Vet who totally believes in home testing and thinks anything less is a great injustice to our cute little friends. Our cats are not terminally ill as many vets view diabetes. Many are fine with just throwing out a dabble dosage that will make things a little better than doing nothing and give our cats a little more time, as if they view diabetes as terminal cancer. I've seen enough to convince myself of that. Be brave and believe in yourself when it comes to choosing the right vet for Cherry. I'm hoping she has many good years ahead of her and it sounds like you are on track to dealing with her diabetes properly. Keep it up. :smile:
 
Hi Michelle and Kelly! Thank you so much for your super support! Sorry I didn't think to edit the reply. I did that below: I'm learning! I'd like to share an update with you and everyone on the vet visit today and how Cherry is doing.

I took Cherry to the other vet today. Cherry had a little accident in the cab, unfortunately: but at least now they had a stool sample to analyze at the vet's office! No parasites and the stool sample was negative. She has had maybe 2-3 bowel movements a day; still cow-pattie type loose stools and very smelly but not diarrhea.

Vet is concerned about the weight loss ("wasting away," as she called it). Cherry weighed in at 6 lbs 1/2 an ounce today. She is doing the geriatric blood panel just to see what else might be going on. Also the fructosamine test. Said Cherry's intestines felt "ropey" and suspects they are inflamed but she didn't feel any tumors when she felt Cherry's intestines.

The vet thinks maybe it's hyperthyroidism behind the weight loss too. Another clue she had was when she was watching Cherry lying on the examining table and asked me, "Does she breathe that quickly all the time?"

Oh, and the vet is totally FOR hometesting. Will order me a glucometer and teach me how to use it. Said too that she doesn't trust curve tests (when I reported the latest curve test results). Said curve tests could be influenced by high blood sugar due to stress of being at the (first) vet, especially for 2 weeks. Just like I learned from this website and everyone in this thread! She trusts the hometesting more.

I should get the results of the geriatric profile tomorrow. Meanwhile Cherry seems relaxed and happy to be back home tonight. Sleeping all curled up on my bed with her 3 brothers. Still comes over and wants something to eat every 90 minutes to 2 hours or so. Still drinking more than usual and peeing quite a bit, though luckily not outside the litter box today. I am hoping there is still some life left in her and that I can turn this around because even the vet said that other than being very thin she seemed alert and engaged in things...not like a cat that was dying.

Hope it's OK to keep you posted! Thank you so much for your stellar caring and support! :)

Michele And Kelly said:
Good morning, Mary,

So glad that you have "rescued" Cherry and that she seems to be in such good spirits.
It is good news that you are seeing the new vet tomorrow. Hopefully, the new clinic can help you wih testing and dosage. With best wishes for Cherry's continued improvement, please get back to us for any help with testing, etc.
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Hi Hooyerd! Your experience with Silky gives me hope and is an eye-opener for me! Please see my reply above to Michelle and Kelly about what happened during my vet visit today to the new vet. She said the same things as you and many others in this thread: that being at the vet for so long can cause stress and sky-rocketing blood sugar. I am encouraged by your success with hometesting Silky at home. This new vet is suspicious of curve tests for that reason; also totally supportive of my doing the hometesting. Now I just hope we can turn around the weight loss. Cherry sure seems relieved to be back home tonight. I can't accept that this is a dying cat. She looks and acts way too alert for that!

hooyerd said:
It sounds awesome that your cat is home and things look more promising. I have learned with my diabetic Silky that the animal hospital environment becomes chaos on her glucose levels. I guess with some cats the stresses of being anywhere else other than good ole comfy "home" are simply overwhelming. Maybe Cherry is sensitive to the extent Silky is? I don't even bothering boarding Silky at the hospital on the rare occasions I go out of town for a few days. Getting her insulin twice a day in the hospital makes her see 450 - 550 levels.
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Good morning, Mary,

Thank you for updating us on Cherry's latest vet visit. Let's hope that the new vet can help with Cherry's weight loss and bowel issues. How is Cherry doing on the wet-only diet? Did the vet get a glucose reading at your visit?

Anyway, it is encouraging that Cherry is in good spirits and acting normally. Please let us know how the blood tests turn out and keep asking any questions, expressing any concerns you may have.

With fingers and paws crossed for good news,

Bye for now, Michele and Kelly
 
Suggestion for going out of town..FYI-- if you can trust a friend/neighbor/family member great --if in the beginning you can't then find a pet sitter that is passionate about cats, interview/meet with that person and she/he will become the best back up you ever had. I had to do this over labor day weekend and KHAN wasn't regulated.. well he still isn't completely.. well the cost is $14 a visit but she charged me $40 for the 2 days which included 4-5 visits! She was as nervous as I was about Khan's numbers so she kept stopping over to check him. I will be forever grateful for her love for my cats! she had to special feed 5 cats and spend time with each! I gave her more $ (and I really don't have the cash) but to me it was all worth it. I wouldn't recommend meeting the pet sitter the night before your leaving (like I did) because not everyone could be as lucky as I ended up being. I did get her name through my vet office..The weekend before I took Khan with me in a huge dog kennel with a small "family dollar" litter box in it just so I could know his insulin was given.
 
Sorry it took so long for me to get back, Michele and Kelly (and everyone!) Tornadoes in my area (Flagstaff, Arizona) since yesterday. Some power losses and still under tornado warning but still not out of the woods.

News wasn't disastrous for Cherry's geriatric profile. Fructosamine in the 500s. Spot glucose check 391. One kidney's BUN slightly elevated but creatinine normal.

New vet's main concern is getting Cherry to gain weight. She did a 2nd thyroid test (1st came back normal) and will let me know when she hears.

Cherry still wants to eat every 90 minutes to 2 hours. Fewer stools daily: maybe down to 2 or 3 from 5 or 6. Still light colored, bulky and foul smelling. Her spirits are good: she sat in my lap and let me pet her while I worked.

I stopped all the dry food and am feeding her DM and also Fancy Feast chicken wet food. That's pretty much it so far. I welcome and am grateful for everyone's continued caring, advice and support!

Michele And Kelly said:
Good morning, Mary,

Thank you for updating us on Cherry's latest vet visit. Let's hope that the new vet can help with Cherry's weight loss and bowel issues. How is Cherry doing on the wet-only diet? Did the vet get a glucose reading at your visit?
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Hi Hooyerd! Sorry it took me so long to get back--tornadoes in my area the past 2 days. I also think that the vet hospital environment is a stressful one that aggravates existing health problems. I'm sorry to hear that you and Silky know that too from personal experience!

I hope you can find my reply to Michele and Kelly of 10/6 in this thread. It's an update on how Cherry is doing. I am so thankful for everyone's support and ideas! The weight loss is the key thing that has to be reversed...

hooyerd said:
It sounds awesome that your cat is home and things look more promising. I have learned with my diabetic Silky that the animal hospital environment becomes chaos on her glucose levels. I guess with some cats the stresses of being anywhere else other than good ole comfy "home" are simply overwhelming. Maybe Cherry is sensitive to the extent Silky is?
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This is great advice, Pepper! I would need to resort to a cat sitter: have no living family and no one I currently know here well enough to trust to take such careful care of Cherry. Luckily I won't be going anywhere anytime soon. But I agree that a vetted, reliable pet sitter is well worth the cost :)

pepperthecat1969 said:
Suggestion for going out of town..FYI-- if you can trust a friend/neighbor/family member great --if in the beginning you can't then find a pet sitter that is passionate about cats,
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A couple of comments...

This cat was getting 3.5 units of lantus twice a day and free feeding dry, correct? And now she has no dry food and you aren't yet monitoring her glucose levels at home? She is at risk for hypoglycemia now...

To address the monitoring, can you ask your clinic to stop the order of the glucometer? You do not need a pet glucometer; rather, just about any pet glucometer will do and you can pick one up asap at any pharmacy.

Jen
 
I'd like to second that. I have both the accutrak pet meter and a human meter. About 15 -20 difference in glucose measurements in the 90-120 range. To me that is pretty good and workable. The human meter yields the lower number which provides a little comfort also. The difference spreads as measurements get higher but when one meter says 450 and the other says 490 it is almost the same thing to me, high! The important thing is to get a meter and start seeing where she is at. Definately don't want the hypo risk. Thanks for the updates. Hope the news keeps getting better.
 
Wow, thank you so much for the caution, Jen and Hooyerd, about the risk of hypoglycemia. This may explain why Cherry has been so ravenous, wanting to eat just about every 2 hours or so. I did take away the dry food because it seemed to be aggravating her loose stools and other GI problems. She is still having some cow-pie stools, bulky but not so much as before and only 2-3 a day whereas before it was like 6 times a day and watery. She is still drinking and peeing a lot too. I went and got her some cooked chicken at the grocery (I made sure no onions or anything like that: just plain cooked chicken). She seemed to like it. I will get that glucometer pronto! I am totally willing to learn to do whatever it takes to help her feel better! :)

Jen & Squeak said:
A couple of comments...

This cat was getting 3.5 units of lantus twice a day and free feeding dry, correct? And now she has no dry food and you aren't yet monitoring her glucose levels at home? She is at risk for hypoglycemia now...
Click to expand...
 
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