Insulin Resistance... What to do?

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BunBun

Member Since 2013
BunBun is going on 11 years; I’ve had her for nine months now. I took Bun from my former roommate because she couldn’t care for a diabetic cat. BunBun has had a lot of ups and downs in those nine months; we were pretty well regulated at 3 U-40 units of Prozinc twice a day for a few months. Recently, we had a huge down slide. We are now at 10 U-40 units of Prozinc twice a day with bg +250, 6 hours after the morning injection. She has chronic UTIs and never uses the litter box anymore. I’ve recently noticed she’s been vomiting bile and brown liquid 2-3 times a week. When she isn’t asking for food she’s drinking a ton of water or sleeping. She's maintaining her weight really well though, holding steady at 9.5 lbs. We ran a full blood panel and all of her other levels are well within the normal range. My vet has told me that beyond switching insulin, which only “might” work because they've had "some" success with it, he doesn’t know what else to do.

Is there an appropriate time to say enough?

Everyone always talks about "quality of life", I took this cat in with bg +650. She was never on insulin with my roommate, so I don't know what she was like before the diabetes. I don't know if she used to play or cuddle. All I know is what she does now is no different than what she did at +650 (except now she doesn't use the litter box).
 
Well first I have to ask how did you arrive at 10 units?

Are you home testing? If you are, how frequently are you testing? If you are not, then you need to start immediately.

10 units is considered a HUGE dose, and unless your cat was tested for Cushings or IAA, then it is possible that you are giving way too much insulin. To understand more about Cushings and IAA please read this link:

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=373

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=375

What kind of food are you using? Dry, wet, raw, combination? How frequently are you feeding the cat?

Are you testing for ketones?
 
Welcome. I would say that the time may not be up yet. More information is needed
- You said "We are now at 10 U-40 units of Prozinc twice a day with bg +250, 6 hours after the morning injection. " What was the BG at the time of the shot?
 
I'm with Hillary. If you give us some more info, we might be able to help.

What is the vet giving her for UTIs? Does he think the antibiotics aren't working or does he have another idea? Infections raise bg levels so it would be great for her and you to get it resolved.

We think food is very important. A vet explains why here: http://www.catinfo.org. We feed wet low carb. Our Oliver switched from Science Diet dry (one of the worst dry foods) to wet low carb and his levels dropped 100 points overnight.

We hometest our cats so we can tell exactly what is happening with the insulin during the cycle. If you find out that the ProZinc isn't bringing down the numbers at home (without stress being at the vet), then yes, there are other insulins.

This shoulds like s very difficult situation for you and Bun Bun. We'd love to try to help.
 
We arrived at 10 units by weekly blood tests and slowly increasing the amount of insulin given. She shows no signs of hypoglycemia.

I do not home test. I am away from home for work for 12 hours a day and don't have the resources to purchase the testing equipment on top of the insulin.

She is currently getting 1/3 cup of dry Rx Purina DM twice a day (so, 6:30am and 6:30pm).

She isn't currently on antibiotics, we finished a bout of antibiotics about two months ago and nothing changed so we decided to try and get the bg under control before using more antibiotics.
 
First I would suggest testing at home. Many cats are stressed at the vet and their numbers are much higher there. So doses based on those inflated numbers can be too high at home and create a rebound effect. They way to know if this is what is happening is to get tests at home. We have lots of people who can only get preshot tests during the week and then get midcycle tests when they have days off.

You can get a free testing kit from us. Click on the testing picture at the top if this page.

Purina dry is very high carb food. You can save money and feed better food with inexpensive wet low carb foods like fancy Feast and Friskies. There is nothing "prescription" about Purina except the price. If you read the ingredients, you can see it is mainly grains. Cats are carnivores and need meat. BUT don't change foods without testing; it can reduce levels dramatically and fast in some cats.

We have had thousands of cats be regulated and/or go into remission in the past 15+ years this site has been in existence. Our methods help cats; we'd be glad to help you and BunBun.
 
There are three key factors to managing diabetes: food/nutrition, home testing and insulin

1) Feline Nutrition: Now, as far as diet - definitely dump the dry food (if you are feeding any) and if the vet recommends purchasing prescription food like DM just say "no thank you". ALL cats, and especially those with diabetes, do best on a species appropriate diet that is high in protein and low in carbs. Dry food DOES NOT fit that bill and DM food, even canned, just really isn't that great as far as quality. Most here on FDMB feed low carb/high protein canned, raw bought from a pet store or they make there own.

Here great links, one is to a food chart put together by one of our board members that breaks down the carb % and protein % of most of the commercial brand foods. You want to keep the carb % below 10% and around 7% or even less is great. The other link is to a site by a vet "Dr. Lisa DVM" ... who also posts on this board from time to time ... there is in-depth info. there about many things, including nutrition and how to make raw food.



The good thing with feeding your diabetic cat this way, is that it is ALSO good for any non-diabetic cat too. All your cats can safely eat the same food without worry and it may save you some costs and headaches of having to do separate feedings and keeping track of what they are eating.

2. Home testing: It is impossible to convey the value of testing your cat's BG (blood glucose) level at home. Some vets will "suggest" this, but most won't even mention it. They will send you home with insulin and an amount to shoot and maybe some instructions about hypoglycemia (blood sugar dropping to a dangerously low level).

Well, the thing is, human diabetics don't EVER give themselves insulin without checking there BG to make sure it is safe to do so, so why shouldn't it be the same for our kitties. Here on FDMB it is. You will notice that the vast majority of people here test their cat's BG at least 2x/day (before giving each shot to make sure the level is safe enough) and periodically at other times to see how the cat is responding to the current dose. We use a human glucometer, test strips and lancets - which are all very readily available and easy to use.

Our kitties get lots of love and treats for "putting up" with this and most of them actually come out to be tested on their own 'cause they want those treats . Here is a collection of great links about home testing. See what you think ... it truly is the best way to not only keep Your cat safe but also really get a handle on this disease and help him to live a healthy life with FD (feline diabetes).



3. Insulin: You are using a decent insulin and for being away from home for many hours this is a good one to use. It is more forgiving and lenient in the protocols.



However, one caveat and again this shows how these three things are inter-related:

If you are feeding dry food or even a high carb food, BEFORE removing these foods, please make sure of your insulin dose as it will most likely need to be reduced, so as to avoid a possible hypoglycemic situation due to the removal of the dry/high carb foods that will lower the BG’s and reduce the amount of insulin required. Again, another reason why home testing is important.



If you are willing, we can help you with home testing, changing the food and honestly, I would suggest starting your insulin dosing over and use 1 unit BID. We want to help you and help keep your cat safe.
 
I would strongly suggest that you not change her food until you can test her insulin regularly at home. When you take away the high-carb dry and get her onto low-carb cans, her BG levels can drop a LOT. You could easily overdose her on insulin if you aren't getting regular pre-shot BG readings. I test before every shot to make sure that Chester's BG is safe to shoot.
 
Vets are like gps - they have to know a little about a lot of things and in a lot of different species. Most get a workshop in Feline diabetes in vet school and their nutrition class is done by Purina. If your vet doesn't deal with diabetes daily and doesn't take refresher courses, then he could certainly be out of date. Purina has lots of money to promote their products. They make a wet food as well so they must not think their dry is a be all, end all solution. It is much lower in carbs than the dry but is liver based and most cats won't eat it for long. And it is expensive.

Many vets don't suggest home testing. It may be that they don't want to overwhelm the owner. It can be that they like the money from vet visits.

We like vets that are willing to think outside the box and are open to considering new ways of treatment. The website I gave you is done by a vet who specializes in feline diabetes and she promotes no dry food and hometesting.
 
Sadly your vet may not be up to date on diabetes. Many vets are not, as they are general practitioners and not specialists in diabetes. additionally, many vets are not knowledgeable about nutrition and how bad dry food really is and that prescription food is nothing special, except expensive.

and not a lot of vets support or encourage home testing - the reasons for this are many. my vet actually forbade me from home testing and said if I did, she would not help me or treat my cat.

so, like many things it is up to us to do our research and figure out what makes sense. luckily that is why this board is here - all of us found our way here and while yes this is the internet and there are crazies on the internet and a lot of misinformation - this place is not like that - it is filled with people, just like you - getting a diagnosis and knowing that something is not right with the vet treatment and searching for answers. we have all been there and have learned and pay it forward by helping new people who find their way here -

we provide information, research, answers and help and even suggestions on how to talk to your vet and see if they are open to working with you and learning - some are, some aren't and that is when you may need to find a new vet, if your vet is not willing to work with you.

now how about that home testing - you willing?
 
Get the tests done for Acromegaly and IAA (done at the same lab in Michigan)

These are much more common than Cushings and the tests are more reliable (definite yes/no answer) than the Cushings tests.

Learning to test your kitty's blood sugar at home would help a lot, and changing to low carbohydrate canned or raw food.

My Norton had acromegaly - he was at a high of 13u BID and when we changed to low carb canned food, his insulin needs dropped to 8u BID. (we made this transition over ~8 weeks because he really loved his dry food).
 
Hi and welcome! Most of us here have walked in your shoes, so I hope you'll take what we all say to heart.

My super-sized, extra sweet boy Grayson started out on ProZinc. We were fortunate to have a friend in town who had a diabetic kitty, and she guided us through those first long, scary, challenging days like you're experiencing. Honestly, it gets better!

Insulin resistance can be a symptom of Acromegaly - giant's disease - the same thing that Andre the Giant had. My boy has it - although likely underdiagnosed, it is still relatively rare (ave 16 cats diagnosed/year). Other kitties are resistant and are NOT Acro. Testing may be a good idea, but some other changes as outlined above are a better place to start in my opinion.

Food is important. ESPECIALLY with the UTIs. If you'll read thoroughly the info on www.catinfo.com, you'll learn about the impact of dry food on the body. I've got two boys and 2 girls that have had crystals and UTIs continually. ABs can be challenging, but giving them canned food with equal parts water has all but eliminated their problems. It's been more than 6 months since their food change (well some of them); longer for others. The Friskees pate is about $1.06/15 oz can at Walmart. For one cat - especially a ravenous one, that's a really good deal. When Fancy Feast goes on sale ($.53/3 oz can) at Petsmart, I BUY CASES!!! Both are about 5% carb. My guys usually spit up beef flavors, so we're almost exclusively chicken and turkey flavors.

I changed food BEFORE I started the insulin, so we could see the impact of the insulin without jacking up the carb count, or risking hypos. Grayson lived about / above 450 even on canned food.

We started on ProZinc. He was up to 9u BID before we had the test for IAA & Acro done. WIth preshots in the 400s mostly, and we spent most of our time in the high pinks with very little movement. Nothing like the smiley-face curves that the others were seeing. Grayson was large boned, but down to 12 pounds (from 22) so I had a hard time wrapping my head around the positive Acro test result... but the insulin resistance positive result was no surprise.

Because of the high dose and resistance, we switched to Levemir. I was reluctant, as I felt ProZinc was safer (in & out in 12 hours). The overlap "reserve tank", shed, depot, I read about scared me. We could've changed to Lev or Lantus. For high dose kitties, Lev is often the better choice because it is pH neutral. Some kitties experience a sting when high doses are injected.

I've also been fostering a kitty who was on 4u ProZinc and not being tested... I changed her food and she's been "OTJ - off the juice" ever since - completely diet controlled. That's why the food change is so important. So, although it's a good idea to have the tests run, I would try the food change first.

Grayson had a staph infection in his ear. That certainly has played a role in his numbers...AND, since the UTI could be impacting the numbers, it makes sense to address that as well. Some kitties will take pills. I give Grayson's thyroid med in a bowl with freeze dried chicken (0% carb), so I don't have to pill him! Others' have done pills, liquid and others. If the AB was Amoxicillan, it may have flavoring that has sugar - which could've impacted the numbers. Baytril, Clavamox, Orbax, Zenniquen are all options. I've gotten the least resistance from Orbax (1x/day liquid). Ask your vet. Remember, they work for you.

It's very helpful if your vet and you are partners in BunBun's care. That means you read everything you find here, print, copy, highlight, and share with your vet. My one vet rolled his eyes when I said something about finding info on the web. The other one IS my partner - and Grayson's primary care-giver. Ask to schedule a consult with them. Bring the info. Be up front if you can - I can't imagine trying to "sneak" testing... although neither were thrilled when I initially started it. My regular vet has now referred me to help another client to home-test. It's a learning curve - for ALL of us. The Acro and Lev and several other things have all been implemented in his care because of people here. We can be a great resource for you, if you'll let us.

Lu-Ann
 
BunBun said:
We arrived at 10 units by weekly blood tests and slowly increasing the amount of insulin given. She shows no signs of hypoglycemia.

I do not home test. I am away from home for work for 12 hours a day and don't have the resources to purchase the testing equipment on top of the insulin.

She is currently getting 1/3 cup of dry Rx Purina DM twice a day (so, 6:30am and 6:30pm).

She isn't currently on antibiotics, we finished a bout of antibiotics about two months ago and nothing changed so we decided to try and get the bg under control before using more antibiotics.

Well, if you are giving the cat 10units of insulin twice a day and the cat's alive, there's no way that you can blame a diet of dry food on the insulin dose. No way you will go back to 1unit and that sort of suggestion is harmful. Disregard such a suggestion because you will harm your cat.

OK testing..... yes, I think you do need to home test for a couple reasons.
1. The testing done at the vet is pretty much useless because stress alone will skew the numbers and show them higher than when your cat is at home.... the vet will base the dose you are to give on those numbers that are too high. Bad idea. One of my cats always tested at least 100+ higher at the vet office, but would drop to her normal numbers within 30min of getting home.

2. You want to know if it's safe to give your cat insulin or not. If you test the cat at shot time and get a number like 120, giving that 10unit shot could be harmful to the cat and you may end up in the ER with a hypo cat. By home testing, you know if you are OK to shoot 10u or 5u or even skip the shot. Cats' needs change and to know their real needs, you want numbers taken in their home environment.

Where are you located? You can get a very economical meter, the Relion meters are just fine and the test strips are also very low priced, if you are in the US. As for being able to test .... if you are there to give the shot, you are there and able to test just before giving the shot.
Lots of people are away from home with work or school or both so quite often during those days, they can get only 3 tests: Before the am shot, before the pm shot, and just before bed test. Many cats go low at nite, so that why the need for that bedtime test.

Then, when they have a day off, on the weekend or something, people are more able to get in a curve, testing every 2 or 3 hours between 2 shots. You don't need to do tons of testing but before shots is safer.

You are using an insulin that is likely going to cost you more because of the high dose, and it's not as long lasting as Lantus or Levemir. If you find that once you are home testing, and can safely switch the diet to a low carb wet one, you can then decide if it's more costly to stay with the current insulin or switch.

As has been said, don't make any food changes until you are testing because you may find that you have a very carb sensitive cat and that 10unit dose could drop to 5u or even 1u, but you won't know till you see at-home numbers.

While we are talking food, it may be an idea to add some wet food to the current diet.... sort of get the wet into the picture and it will make the switch easier. No diabetic cat should be fed dry food unless you truly have a diehard dry food addict.... there are some but not many.

She hasn't lost any weight and is always hungry and is at a high dose.... smells like some resistance there. Most diabetic cats lose weight along with drink alot and pee alot, so no weight loss makes me suspect resistance.

The litter box, can you say a bit more about what she does? I ask because one of my cats was very very clean and used the box all the time, until she became needing insulin. I took her to the vet because she was always urinating just outside the box, never inside it. Her poop was always in the box but not the pee. Even later on, when she was more regulated, she still stuck to peeing in front of the box, so I resorted to using puppy pads in front of the box.. it worked for us.

What has your vet done for the UTIs? What meds were you given for the cat and what were the results? What tests have been done so far and if you don't have copies of the blood results and tests, ask your vet to get copies. You paid for the tests, so you are entitled to copies of the results, including the urinalysis results.

Diabetic cats are always hungry before they are regulated. Both of my cats ate like feline garburators, eating 30oz and 24oz a day but once regulated they got down closer to 10oz and 6oz a day.
If you start on the wet food, it will supplement the dry and cut down on the hunger. You can also add a bit of water to the wet food as it will help to fill up the cat and water is needed as the vomiting is causing dehydration.

Talk to your vet about having your cat tested for acromegaly and IAA; don't bother with cushings tests because they are not firm in the results and you did not mention any signs like thin ripping skin or extreme hair loss. Cushings does not apply; not sure why it was mentioned.
If you get your vet to look into the tests and give you an estimate of the cost, it will help you to know if you can afford it or if it can wait till later. The tests are something like $49 and $18 but you would need to add on what your vet charges for a blood draw and the shipping of the draw to MSU to have the tests done.

Gayle
 
I might have missed this ... but how old is that vial of insulin? How do you prepare the shot (roll the vial before drawing the dose, etc)? What type of syringes are you using?

Has the cat ever been tested for pancreatitis (fPLI blood test)?
 
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