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Magda

Magda

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My at was diagnosed with diabeties end of November 2015. His sugar was in the 500s. Got prozinc insulin 4 units twice a day. At 2 week check up (about 7 hours after insulin) his levels were still 530
He was prescribed WD dry and wet. Kept urinating tons, drinking a lot and diarrhea.
We increased to 4.5units and still the same. High levels and same side effects. At some point we started 5 units
Finally some other vet that I know thru rescue suggested getting high protein/low carb food and to stick with only wet. She also said to go up to 6 units 2xday

Excessive drinking and urinating stopped. No more diarrhea.His values are little lower but not perfect. He seems to be weak in his rear legs. Slipping and sliding and having hard time jumping on sofa.

He is always starving. Polishing off 5.5 oz of wet food in am and than panicking trying to steal food from other cats. Pulling at the doors to get to them and franticly chasing past me any time I am near food.

I bought alpha track glucose meter and started curve yesterday. So those are my current reading if someone can make out anything from that
Yesterday
6:05 am 416, had 1 can of food + 6 units of insulin at 6:20 am
8:05 am 411
10:10 am 284
12:05 pm 195
2:10 pm 160
4:08 pm 265 (gave him about 1-2tsp of wet food)
6:05 pm 491 , 1 can of food and insulin at 6:20 pm
around 10 pm I give them little food for late night snack so he got about 1/3 can.

starting today
6:05 am 439, 1 can of food +insulin at 6:20
8:05 am 403
10 am 220
12:05 pm 83 (I actually rechecked it to make sure it wasn't mistake)
14:05 pm 83
still working on measuring and will post final results later

I've tried to do curve before on human glucose meter but had too many errors and lost few strips so I wasn't able to finish 2 days.

Anyone can advise me and guide me through all of this? This is my first cat with diabetes.
I already owe a lot of money for his medical care as he was in hospital for 2 days+my other cat and have no job at this moment so trying to figure out some things on my own
any help appreciated
 
I do not use Prozinc myself, but from your curve I would venture to say that the dose may be too high. Today you had a drop from 439 at shot time to 83 just under 4 hour later. That is a big drop and will most likely cause your kitty to "bounce" (get into higher levels) as the cycle (12 hour period between shots ends). The problem with doing a reading at the vets is that some cats can have higher glucose levels because of stress. Also the check up was done 7 hours after the insulin shot which is the time your kitty could be "bouncing" or the shot wearing off. The best indicator is what you are doing....a curve at home.

If you want to repost this on the Health forum and change your title to something like "Dose Advice Needed For Prozinc" you should get more people there who are familiar with Prozinc. This is the link to the Health Forum:

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/forums/feline-health-the-main-forum.28/
 
last time I did curve it went from 361 to 366 to 291 than 319, 324, 385,401
so his levels are not steady. What I want to figure out is if he is properly absorbing insulin or he has some kind of resistance. Can't figure out dosing if his numbers are always so different
 
Welcome Magda,

What is your kitty's name? When did you switch to wet low carb?

Four units is a high dose. We usually suggest starting at one unit and working up slowly. Your two curves (great work by the way!) show he drops a lot at mid cycle. What this can suggest is that the higher numbers are bounces. It's a strange concept but the idea is that their body senses a lower number than it is used to and releases extra glucose to keep them safe. So the next pre shot number may be higher than "normal", reflecting the extra glucose. Giving the same dose can set up a pattern of highs and lows - human diabetics suggest it feels like a roller coaster.

If you just recently switched to wet low carb, you might consider lowering the dose and see if the food and less insulin flattens out his cycle. This is tricky because you want to have as much insulin as he needs, but it is hard to figure that out if he is getting too much. Too much and too little insulin can look similar. Sometimes a switch to low carb can mean a reduction of 100+ points so I am concerned with the high dose if the food kicks in.

There are high dose conditions that require more insulin, but a restart might help you eliminate that possibility. But if you do reduce, we suggest testing for ketones at the same time. (You buy the same ketone strips that humans use. If he won't let you stick the strip in his urine stream, we have ways to do the test.)

The weakness in his legs may be neuropathy. Here is some info on it.

http://petdiabetes.wikia.com/wiki/Neuropathy

The protocol we put together for ProZinc is in my signature in blue.

This forum is small but friendly. If you ever have an emergency, post here and on the Health forum to get more eyes.
 
Thanks for stepping in Sue. I didn't see you on or I would have tagged you.

Magda Sue is very experienced with Prozinc and has a wealth of knowledge. You are in good hands!!
 
4 units was suggested by the vet after Menda spent 2 days in hospital getting his curve monitoring. Vet started at lower and his sugar didn't move. I started newest food change mid January.
What do you suggest I should lower insulin too?
I am having hard time using lancet as I keep missing the vein so I just use the needle part of lancet and poke my itself without device. Any suggestions on how to use lancet properly and which setting (1-4) should work best?>
I tried this thing on my finger and it did hurt a lot. So I would love to avoid pads and stick to ears.
 
I should mention weak legs don't stop him from playing, galloping and bouncing around, expecially when I am near food. SO he doesn't seem like he is in pain.
 
Oh sorry. See you changed in January. And what percentage of carbs? We suggest staying under 8 - 10%.

The trouble with the vet curve and dosage based on those levels is that most cats are stressed at the vet and stress raises blood glucose levels. The doses based on those numbers can be too high once he gets home and relaxes.

I liked the lancet holder once I took off the top. Also using something behind the ear can help - something to poke against.. We used a small make up sponge. sometimes poking under a light to see where those capillaries are can really help.

For today, I would get a number 10 hours into the cycle - to make sure he is headed up, not down, and to see how long the insulin is lasting. If he gets 50 or below. post on Health and ask for HYPO help. 50 and lower is too low. Then at +12 and depending on the number, we can consider what dose might be best for the shot tonight.

I have to leave for an hour or so, but will check in on you when I get back. Be sure to post on Health if he drops below 50. You can raise him using food, but it helps to have someone guide you through it.
 
it is friskies chicken and tuna patte. Hate to give them cheap food but at this moment have no choice. I think it is either 2% or under. I started fundraiser to help with my vet bills but didn't get too much of response. Next reading in about 35 min
 
Thanks, Linda. I missed that. Magda, are you at +10? If so, the number is rising and should be okay. It looks like you may have a lower pre shot test than usual and you may need to look at lowering the dose.

We need to set you up with a spreadsheet to keep your numbers. It's handy for you and for us, when you need quick advice. I will send you a conversation and can set it up for you. When you see a notification at the top RH side of the page, click on it.
 
what is +10?
I start reading at 6 am give insulin at 6:20 after feeding him than checking every 2 hours until next insulin time at 6pm. so this was 4 pm reading
 
+10 is the number 10 hours after the shot. Because we are in different time zones, we use that measurement rather than actual times. Check out the spreadsheet in my last post and see if I got the times/numbers correct.
 
new to this forum or any forum. I am checking again in 15 minutes. Should I continue with 6 units insulin or we may need to change it?
 
How long till your shot time - 15 minutes? Let's see how he looks. We suggest that new diabetics not get a shot under 200, but stall. So you'd wait 20 minutes, without feeding which can raise the number, and retest. You want it closer at 200+ and sure rising, not still falling. He may be under 200 or he may bounce at the end.

Regardless, I would reduce the dose, He went way down from his preshot number. That has to feel crummy. I'd like to see a flatter cycle and a lower dose may help with that. And you don't want him dropping lower than 68 overnight. He was pretty close today.
 
you see yesterday results. So different than today. And both yesterday and today morning 12 hours after insulin it was in 400 range
 
he has been diagnosed with diabeties in November. Not sure how long he had it before that. With 4 cats at that moment I didn't notice that someone was drinking/urinating a lot so don't know how long he had it
 
OK. So that is 100 points lower than this morning. And I am worried, if he did the same pattern as today, he might drop in hypo range overnight when he is harder to monitor. What do you think about lowering the dose to 3 units? You can always raise it the next cycle if he is high and flat, but you can't get the insulin out of the cat once you shoot.

I am guessing that his body is learning to use the insulin (sometimes that can take 6 weeks or more) and the low carb food is also helping out. So he has dropped pretty significantly the last two cycles. And remember, they are the accurate ones - not the ones at the vets that were stress related. So, if he continues to drop, we want him on a safe dose.

Does that make sense? I am being cautious but he seems to be changing patterns so I want him to be safe.
 
Hi Magda, I'm still learning so am not great with dose advise. But don't worry about "low quality food." Often much is made about meat by-produts but they are still meat. If you look at "high quality foods" they often have muscle meat say chicken but they also have more carb heavy fillers because muscle meat is more expensive. Fancy Feast, Friskies and Generics like Special Kitty (walmart) or Grreat Choice (pet smart) are fine especially if we don't want to be spending more food to feed our fuzzies they we spend on ourselves.
 
ok at what point should I give him something sweet? when it drops below what number? I have karo syrup, maple syrup both pure maple and log cabin and icing.
 
I think getting a pre shot number tomorrow (remember the under 200 thing) and a number around +3 and then +6 will give you an idea of how the insulin is working, rather than every 2 hours.

:p You have lots of goodies at your house. If he would drop near 68, first give him a little snack of the regular food and retest in 20 minutes. If he is still dropping, then a little bit of the gravy off a gravy wet food (good to have in your hypo kit. Fancy Feast gravies flavors work well for this). If he continues to drop, then a teaspoon full of Karo syrup rubbed on his gums. If he won't let you do this, add a little bit to a tablespoon of food and mix it up. While he is in low ranges, test every 20 minutes until you get three rising numbers above 68.
 
BTW, great job today. Testing him at home is a hard thing to master and you got it done! It gave you lots of good information you can use. And now that you know his levels, you can keep him safe.
 
He might be experiencing a bounce, meaning because he got so low today lower then his body is use to his body is pumping out the sugar. Only time can tell. If you can I'd say get a +6 to see if he continues to rise or if he start to come back down. If this is a bounce it can take 6 cycles (3 days) for things to become more normal.
 
I'm on the phone so can't update the sheet now but hoping someone is here. At +6 hours from 3 units Menda was at 441. This morning at + 12 hours sugar is at 457. Should I continue with 3 units or go back to 6?
 
Magda

Right now there are only a few people on and no one I can see that is a Prozinc user. Since you have already given the shot, the best thing to do would be to do your +3 test and see how the dose is working, The more information you have the easier it is to make dose adjustments.

@Sue and Oliver (GA) should be on a bit later and can give you more information on dose changes with the prozinc
 
I think you did the right thing in giving 3u. It might be that Menda's sweet spot for insulin is somewhere between 3u and 6u. However, with the diet change it's best to start low and go slow when increasing so you don't miss the sweet spot.
 
Hi Magda, a ProZinc user here. I'll admit I haven't read the entire thread, but from what I can gather, I'm thinking that the dose has been too high. When Goof was diagnosed, his BG was 652 . He was started with one unit twice daily. It takes some time for the body to learn to work with the insulin. Plus, when you cut the carbs in the food, as you should, now that's another thing the body has to adjust to. So this is a marathon, not a sprint. It's going to take TIME to obtain regulation and nothing you can do will change that.

It's better that the numbers be too high than too low, but if they're over 300 you should be checking for ketones if you can.
 
I posted before I was finished with what I wanted to say, but I wanted you to know that a ProZinc user was here to help. :cat:

When testing, this is your order: test-feed- shoot. The only time you don't shoot is if BG is below 200. Make sure food has no more than 10% carbs. Some people say 8% but I don't know where that idea came from. I try to keep Goof around that tho. He's always hungry...correction, STARVING! It's the nature of the beast that is Diabetes. When Goof actually stands in the kitchen and YOWLS :arghh: I give him a couple tablespoons of plain tuna. It quiets him down and doesn't mess with the BG too much. I buy it in the pouch and put it in a container in the fridge for fast access.:cat:
 
Question for anyone here. Where do you get your ketones strips? Any brand you like best ? Which one reads easy? I would think Amazon would be cheapest but maybe someone can post link of the ones they get?
 
I did get mine from Amazon but walmart or any pharmacy has them as well. They don't seem to have a huge price spread between things.
 
Hi Magda,

Ketostix (urine test strips for ketones) or Keto-diastix (for ketones and urine glucose) are usually easily available. Also I think Walmart do urine ketone test strips in their Relion diabetes range.


Mogs
.
 
I am in Colorado so don't get on as early in the morning. Sorry I missed you. I think sticking with 3 units is fine for another cycle. If he is still high tonight, then maybe increase to 4? I am torn. I think 6 units was too high and took him down too low and Likely caused a big bounce. And I am still wondering whether he is getting used to the food and the insulin. But I want him safe and not too high also.

Ketone strips should be available from any pharmacy as they are what human diabetics use.
 
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