IDEAS ABOUT KEEPING MURPHY AWAY FROM OSCIE'S FOOD

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msmurphy2010

msmurphy2010

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Murphy did it again today! But, today -- she jumped straight up to the countertop where I keep Oscie's food! I came home, tested her BG - 217. Little stinker. My vet suggested purchasing a magnetic collar for Oscie so he would be the only one who could get to his food with a little magnetic door, but my question is, what could I use in an apartment -- could this be something that could be built?

She's a little turd!! Any ideas on keeping her away from his food would be greatly appreciated.

Lisa
 
I keep the others away from my civie's dry food by simply covering the dry food when I am not around. If the civie gets hungry enough, she is more than welcome to eat some of the wet.

Same food is the easiest way to go, unless there are some health issues that makes one need a different diet.
 
Some caretakers have installed the controlled cat doors in large carriers and place the food in the carrier. One company even sells (or did sell) the modified carriers.
 
Unless there is a medical reason why Oscie has to have different food, I agree with Dian, feed them the same food. I have 8 cats and all of mine eat the same canned food. By doing so, it reduces the chance of Oscie developing diabetes.
 
Ditto here...got 10 cats and they all eat the same canned food. Even the drooler is on canned food. Unless there is a medical reason for Oscie to have a different diet the easiest would be to feed the same thing. And after seeing the change in my civies I personally would never feed anyone dry again. The civies are even in better health & coat.

Mel, Max & The Fur Gang
 
Boy, sure wish that were a reasonable thing for me to do, but unfortunately, Oscie has had a few periods of struvite crystals, and his diet absolutely has to be so low in magnesium.

I wondered if there was a company that designed magnetic doors into carriers, but I have no idea of where to find this information. If anyone knows, please advise. THanks much.
 
Hi MsMurphy,

One of our cat's (Timmy) has Feline Urinary Tract Disease (crystals), We switched all our pets to canned wellness-no Carb foods (some wellness canned have added carb, check the can, no carb are listed on top of can in a little yellow triangle). Please read http://www.catinfo.org, to see if this is something that would work for your pets, as all pets are differant. Timmy is still on Wellness and has not has a episode of urinary tract disease since. We also add a few tablespoons of water to the food as it is very important to have water flowing thru they pets system. This is explained on http://www.catinfo.org.
All our other pets have since moved on to raw food. Except Timmy, he still eats wellness.
hope this is helpful information for you.
 
You could also install the collar-controlled cat doors in either a closet or bathroom door. If you rent, you could see if the super/owner would mind if you buy a door at Lowes/Home Depot to replace one of your doors and then cut a hole in that one. If you get a cheap interior door it could cost less then $50 plus the door. Alternately you could just build a wooden crate type enclosure and install one of the doors in it and then place it somewhere.
 
msmurphy2010 said:
Boy, sure wish that were a reasonable thing for me to do, but unfortunately, Oscie has had a few periods of struvite crystals, and his diet absolutely has to be so low in magnesium..
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I am going to make some *general* comments here but also, please see my Urinary Tract Health page below.

1) Crystals are so VERY often mis-diagnosed and terribly blown out of proportion...leading cat owners to worry far too much about "special" diets.

2) It makes absolutely *no* sense to be feeding any cat a dry food diet but especially one whose owner is worried about any urinary tract issue. (Again....these are general comments....I have no idea what the OP is feeding.)

3) I do not use any of the Rx diets except as otherwise noted on the UTH webpage since
there are better quality....LOWER CARB....and cheaper OTC options making it very logical to
feed the same food to diabetic and non-diabetic cats.

4) If I had a dime for every time a caring cat owner wrote to me about the "special urinary tract diet" that their vet insists the cat stay on for life, I would be wealthy.

5) crystals are not an abnormal finding in cat urine and do not necessarily need to be 'treated' with the low-quality, expensive Rx diets.

6). Everyone also needs to ask....just how were the crystals diagnosed?? With a send-out test....with a strong posibility of a false positive....resulting in cats being put on inappropriate diets for life at the expense of their owner's pocketbook....and worried emotions.... Or were they diagnosed in-house?
 
Cheryl & Whiskers said:
One of our cat's (Timmy) has Feline Urinary Tract Disease (crystals).
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Hi Cheryl,

Please don't take this as picking on you but i am going to use your verbiage as an example of the mistakes that lead to so many worried cat owners and so many cats being placed on poor quality Rx diets.

If I could shout this from the rooftops, I would: crystals are NOT necessarily a pathological finding in the cat and are definitely NOT always synonymous with FLUTD.

I long for the day when both vets and lay people stop *always* making a big deal about crystals and pH while neglecting the issue of water.

To repeat... These are very general comments. More details are on my UTH page linked below.
 
msmurphy2010
dr. lisa is so right. I went through this with my cats but x rays verified crystals one struvite and the other calcium. . the guys were always getting UTI and not until I switched to a canned lo carb food did this subside. of course the one with calcium had surgery. wheezer was placed on S?D diet which dissolves struvite crystals. I have 8 cats and 6 are on Dr lisa's raw diet and the 2 fosters are on canned. I have never had another problem. cats need fluid to flush out the bladder and ureters to keep sludge from building up and blocking off and/or infections. since they normally do not drink water, canned food (can even mix in wATER SO THEY GET MORE) is the way to go. you will see healthier cats and fur so soft is it like rabbit fur. no dry flaky skin either.
buy what you can afford. special kitty,friskies,nine lives, fancy feast and on up. check out janet and binky;s chart for lowest carb foods. <10 grams is best. I go a lot lower.
hope this helps
 
"We also add a few tablespoons of water to the food as it is very important to have water flowing thru they pets system. This is explained on http://www.catinfo.org.

I did not mean to imply that FLUTD was the correct diagnosis, just what we were told at the time, And referred MsMurphy to Dr. Lisa's web site catinfo.org for a better explination.

Our case was diffucult. Timmy was in extreme pain, completely blocked and at risk of death. After an emergancy veterinary hospital stay and a $3000.00 bill, I went in search online and found that high quality food and water could help all our pets. I found this infomation helpful, and wanted to share it as it may help someone else. Please refer to experts before making changes as I am a layperson.
 
I did not mean to imply that FLUTD was the correct diagnosis
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Actually, it was the correct diagnosis....he did have severe lower urinary tract disease.

However, the point that I was trying to make is that the presence of crystals does not necessarily mean that a cat:

1) has FLUTD or

2) needs to be 'treated' with a "special" diet.

This is a complicated subject and my posts may only be serving to confuse people more. That is why I wrote the UTH page linked below.

Believe me....blocked cats scare me to death. This is why I am thankful that I came across
Opie at close to midnight that night....dying in someone's backyard....minutes away from rupturing his bladder. I am also thankful that I had my camera that night so I could record his suffering for the world to see. After dealing with Opie, my focus about dry food became less about carb content and more about water content.

People who are 'married' to the Rx diets are missing the main point to all of this.

Also, the strong reliance of my colleagues on the pet food reps' spiels, coupled with the fact
that the vast majority of vets are highly uneducated with respect to optimal feline nutrition.....all leads to the lay person to think that Rx diets are not only thier *only* choice
but also their *best* choice and this is simply not the case.

I fully realize that there is a debate about whether carb overloading a cat actually causes diabetes but i firmly believe that it does in *some* cats. Therefore, if behoves the lay
person to re-evaluate the dietary recommendations that their vet is making when said vet chooses a high carb Rx (or non-Rx) diet for their cats with urinary tract problems.

I will say it again.....most of my colleagues are simply very uneducated when it comes to
feeding cats properly and, sadly, are not the best sources of nutritional advice. I truly wish that the situation was different and that the lay person could depend on their vet for the best nutritional advice possible but that is just not the case in many situations.
 
Hey, Dr. Lisa, thanks for the reminder on pet nutrition. With 6 diabetic cats I am fostering because people fed dry food or high carb wet food, your advice has 3 of them either OTJ or close to it.

Happy holidays to you and yours. And thanks for the work you do and the marvelous advice you give on this board and in your catinfo website.

Claudia
 
With 6 diabetic cats I am fostering
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I am not sure whether to nominate you for sainthood.....or the loony bin! :-D

Thanks for your kind comments and holiday best wishes. The same back to you!
 
I can only tell you that I had Oscie on Purina UR for over 10 years, his first attack being when he was 2 years old - I'm a believer in prescription diet if there is a need, and there certainly was, and I will always have Purina to thank for keeping him under control.

We switched to Wellness for him once Murphy was Dx'd in August because it appears to be a better food, and I want grain free for both of them. Struvite is some serious crap, and renal failure can come on pretty quick, and I have read the feedback about this topic and I think that each has their own idea of what is right and wrong, but let me tell you, I was just looking at his records from 2 years old, and that incident scared the you know what's out of me. His bladder had been full for at least 2 days and his vet told me that had I went to work, he would have been in renal failure by the time I came home, he was screaming at the top of his lungs -- ever hear a Siamese scream in pain, let alone just yowel! So I have always been a believer in a veterinary diet - but only Purina UR. Now that we have migrated over, he is only on wet food, and yes, it is true that they need fluids, but the acidity in the urine needs to stay at or below 6.5 for Ph in order to keep struvite from forming. Magnesium in the diet is a huge promoter if struvite that causes the crystals to form, and Wellness is at 0.02 or something close to that, and some times, ash can play along with that, although normally in dry food. I have researched this topic over and over. Some vets now do not think that the ash byproducts have anything to do with the crystals, but there are still some who do believe it does.

So, back on topic -- Oscie is on wet food, his diet was particularly chosen with low magnesium in mind, and so far, since the end of August, he is just fine. The problem I had was the he would not eat Murphy's Evo cat and kitten food, for he'd starve himself to death -- then we'd end up with hepatic problems. So, Wellness was probably my favorite choice. The thing I have to get back to is -- Murphy CANNOT jump on the countertop any longer, so that stupid huge chair of mine is sitting in my bedroom!!!

I believe struvite is very painful, dangerous and not something to play around with as far as food is concerned. It can cause some long-term if not very short demise for a kitty if an owner doesn't play the cards right. It was a really horrible scheme of events for me to see him with a catheter, surgery, recovery. And, he was so miserable at the hospital, after 3 days, they called me and said he was being a bad boy, and I needed to come pick him up -- sort of like a bad kid in school and the teacher calls the parents!

I've had kidney stones and when I saw him in so much pain, I remembered myself having stones and how I wanted to die. So, I believe I have chosen the right diet for him and have turned my beliefs over now to the fact that yes, there are some very good diets out there that promote healthy urinary tract, but I will always praise Purina for the UR diet. Those people know me by name!

:)
 
msmurphy2010 said:
I'm a believer in prescription diet if there is a need, and there certainly was, and I will always have Purina to thank for keeping him under control.
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I am happy that it has worked out for you but in order to stick to the 'science' and not the 'emotions' of the issue, please understand that there are many people who have handled this problem just as successfully (and more successfully in many cases - no diabetes...no IBD..etc...) with OTC canned foods that did not:

1) carb overload their cats

2) use species-inappropriate ingredients

Just because something seemed to work, that does not mean that it cannot be improved upon.

And for any cat that becomes diabetic or end up with IBD on a high carb Purina (or any other brand) urinary tract diet, it would seem to me that the owner might ponder..."hmmmm....I wonder if my cat would be in the diabetic (or IBD) state he/she is in if I would have not had tunnel vision...focusing only on the urinary tract because there are plenty of low carb canned foods with species-appropriate ingredients that can be used very, very successfully to promote urinary tract health."

That is where my brain would wander....

Again, I hate tunnel vision nutrition and that is what these Rx diets are. I feed for *whole body* health - not just one organ system.... to the detriment of the rest of the body.

Take t/d for instance. Sure, it may help keep the cat's teeth clean - while it wreaks havoc on the rest of the body with its high carb load and inappropriate/hyperallergenic ingredients.

Purina will never get my vote of approval for many non-emotional reasons but, instead, for reasons based on scientific fact such as....soy does not belong in cat food....carbohydrates wreak havoc on the blood sugar level of many cats...many of their ingredients are hyperallergenic...etc...etc.
 
I understand your comments. However, Oscie is not my diabetic cat. He is the one with the urinary issues, and had I known then, what I do now about diets, he would not have been on a veterinarian diet. But, for what it's worth, the diet worked for him for 10 years, and to that end, I do compliment Purina Veterinary Diets. Now, with today, had I known that there were other OTC diets that had lower magnesium and not been "tunnel visioned," as you say, my choices would have been different. I would never consider myself tunnel visioned, but more cautious than anything, but like I said, that was 10 years ago, and this is today. So, I apologize, but I'm not that right-wing on things of this nature, because whatever choices I have made in the past have been good choices, made between my vet and myself, and had significant benefits that have (a) kept my siamese (non-diabetic) cat from having any other struvite issues (none whatsoever), and (b) kept him out of the hospital for further treatment of struvite, which ultimately may have been costly had I not made the correct choices.

So, just to clarify, Murphy is not the struvite kitty - Oscie is -- Oscie is not diabetic.

I'm not sure how the topic of my original post came to speaking of the sole issue of struvite and posting on tunnel visioned owners who can't get away from prescription diets, because I initially posted on how to handle feeding two cats two different diets. This string has veered way off topic.
 
Dr. Lisa wrote:

Crystals are so VERY often mis-diagnosed and terribly blown out of proportion...leading cat owners to worry far too much about "special" diets.

In the case of Oscie, my siamese, I believe this is a very incorrect statement as it is not a blown out of proportion situation when your cat is screaming in deathly pain and falls to the floor from so much writhing pain and then has to have the crystals surgically removed. He was completely blocked.

So, this is significant and it was not a missed Dx, and it would in general, lead an owner to fear OTC diets -- why because we are not educated or informed about the other diets.

But, that was over 10 years ago, and things are different now. I can say now that I know what to look for on the canned labels and what to stay away from.
 
msmurphy2010 said:
So, just to clarify, Murphy is not the struvite kitty - Oscie is -- Oscie is not diabetic.
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I understand this.

msmurphy2010 said:
not sure how the topic of my original post came to speaking of the sole issue of struvite and posting on tunnel visioned owners who can't get away from prescription diets, because I initially posted on how to handle feeding two cats two different diets. This string has veered way off topic.
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Topics veer "way off" here on the board frequently and that is how we all learn - myself included.

The FDMB is a very well-read board by a large number of people. No thread is an 'island' and as long as the OP's original question is addressed (this is, of course, very important) ......if the topic provides a springboard for further discussion, then I am all for it.

Please note the liberal use of the word "generally" in my posts. When I write my posts, they are directed at anyone who chooses to read them.
 
msmurphy2010 said:
Dr. Lisa wrote:
Crystals are so VERY often mis-diagnosed and terribly blown out of proportion...leading cat owners to worry far too much about "special" diets.
Click to expand...

And this is a very true statement.

In the case of Oscie, my siamese, I believe this is a very incorrect statement
Click to expand...

The problem is...with most blocked cats....we don't always know what role crystals played in actually blocking the cat. Crystals could very well just be an innocent bystander - since they are a *normal* finding in cat urine - but since they are so readily seen in some cats, we jump to conclusions that they are the source of the blockage when they very well may not be.

Cats can block from mucus, cellular debris, protein material, urethral spasms, etc. For instance, when a cat gets cystitis (sterile or secondary to an infection), the above mentioned 'gunk' (for lack of a better word :-D ) or spasms can block the plumbing. But...if crystals are found, they get the blame and then the cat is put on an expensive, low quality diet for life.

THIS is what I am speaking out about and will continue to discuss.

I deal with a lot of people who do not have money trees in their backyard. They come to me (hundreds of them each year) in a total panic because either 1) they can't afford the diet anymore or 2) their cat stops eating it.

I am not exaggerating when I use the word "panic". These people have been brainwashed by their vets into thinking that an Rx diet is the ONLY way to go and that is why I speak out about this so strongly.

as it is not a blown out of proportion situation when your cat is screaming in deathly pain and falls to the floor from so much writhing pain
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Oh...believe me, I know. I was literally wiping the tears from my eyes and shaking while taking those pictures of Opie. I have been in the vet profession for over 30 years and I will NEVER get used to seeing any animal suffer like Opie was suffering. This is why I spend HOURS...and HOURS each day and every day trying to educate people (both lay and and my colleagues) about the perils of dry food.

I post Opie's pictures on VIN on a regular basis to try to get my colleagues to engage the common sense part of their brain with respect to this issue. Sadly....I have found it very slow going. Humans can be so damn stubborn! This would not make me so angry if I didn't feel so passionately about the pain that cats like Opie and Oscie went through. It is because of them that I am like a bulldog about this issue.

and then has to have the crystals surgically removed. He was completely blocked. So, this is significant and it was not a missed Dx,
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Again, we often do not know *exactly* what was actually blocking the guys.

and it would in general, lead an owner to fear OTC diets -- why because we are not educated or informed about the other diets.
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Exactly my point. My frustration lies with my colleagues, not the lay person. But...since my colleagues tend to be a very stubborn lot...most of which are married to the Rx diets....I spend time on lay boards with more receptive minds.

(Edited to get the quoting correct.)
 
Speaking of Opie....His mom just sent this to me.



(Unfortunately, Opie is an outdoor kitty...(which he greatly prefers)....due to the fact that he is a sprayer. Our rescue group strongly believes in INDOOR ONLY...except when a cat is hell bent on ruining a person's home. Fortunately, Opie lives in southern CA where it is pretty warm...but she still gives him a heated bed in the winter.)

He is now 2.5 years post blocking and is maintained on OTC canned food only. NO DRY FOOD...ever....(unless he gets some from the neighbor's bowls that we don't know about....)
 

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I believe you understand that I am not a tunnel vision pet owner then. As I said earlier, had I known then what I know now on the issue of struvite -- the issue of diet would have been a far easier choice to make. All I had to do was keep him on a wet, low magnesium diet. And, yes, vets far too often push veterinarian diets. But, this time, I have a vet who looks outside the borders and agrees with my choices in diets, while not pushing veterinarian diets, and has as a matter of fact, helped me to make the decision on the diets for each of them and with her input, that's the only way I could do it.

Getting back to my original question --

Oscie has his own very picky eating habits - he hates the Evo that Murphy eats, and I cannot switch her diet right now because we're just too new into the Dx of diabetes and pancreatitis. I had to find something that he would enjoy, which ends up being Wellness. I leave his food out on the counter, and came home one night and before I fed Murphy, checked her BG, and it was 293. Hadn't been that high since her Dx in August. What I discovered was that she had jumped from a large chair some 4 ft away from my counter and ate all of his food that day.

My concern was that she cannot have access to his food because (a) it is a different food, and (b) it will affect her BG levels throughout the day. I want to keep her in range as much as possible, which has been low to mid-100s. This jump scared the you know what's out of me.
 
I had to find something that he would enjoy, which ends up being Wellness.
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These threads get so long that I lose track of things....

Always state "canned" or "dry" when mentioning any type of food fed. I hope that with the issue of urinary tract health being discussed so heavily here, this is canned Wellness, not dry. And...hopefully with a bit of added water.

(Again...forgive me if I have missed something here...I can't review the whole thread.)
 
msmurphy2010 said:
Oh, definitely, he is on Wellness wet always. I do add water to both Oscie and Murphy's food.
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Phew. I just wanted to make sure that it was not dry.

Hopefully you are also keeping to the lower phos end (so no fish) since phos is part of struvite.

(Note that the regular EVO canned is high in phosphorus - at 440 mg/100 kcal according to Janet's chart.)

All that said (about phos content of the food), I still strongly believe that the water content of the diet is the most important issue but...as long as there are lower phos foods available, I don't like to tempt the fate of a previously-blocked cat so I tend to try to stay on the lower phos side of the equation.
 
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