I thnk we're bouncing.....your views pls

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Harrycat

Member Since 2012
Hi,

I have just kinda managed to get to here with the googledocs https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... sp=sharing

Apologies it's not in the standard forum layout but I started this a long time ago without using your layout and haven't had the time to transpose as yet. (UK readings in mmo/l)

I think we're bouncing on the Caninsulin having changed his diet and would be interested in your opinions and advice. I will be testing at intervals today to see how he is getting on and I am now free-feeding him. This is all new to me having had him so high for so long!! :cry:

There has been so so much change in him this month since we switched the food and the reading of 3.9 was a total shocker.

Thanks in advance

Jax
 
Hi Jax,

Hmmm, yes, that 3.9(70) on the 26th is intriguing... nailbite_smile ;-)

It is certainly a possibility that he is bouncing as a result of dropping too low. 'Too low' can either mean 'dangerously low' (ie into hypo numbers) or that he is just dropping 'too low for his comfort'. (Cats get used to high blood glucose levels, and numbers that are lower than they are used to can cause them to bounce.)

You're quite right: We need more info on what is happening during the insulin cycle. So those extra tests you're going to do today will be really helpful. Have you worked out when the insulin starts working in Harry ('onset') and when it peaks? Caninsulin typically peaks (reaches lowest number) at around +4.5 to +5 (but cats aren't always 'typical'!) Of course, if he is bouncing, then you may just see high numbers today. So is it possible to get more tests over the Easter weekend too...?

Hugs to you. We all know how scary it can be when things start to change! But we're all here for you. :smile:

Eliz
 
My first test was just now and he's 11.9....... after a dose of 1.5 this morning!!!! Sadly I was messing about with the kids and then kitty went AWOL so didn't get a reading until +4.

I think it's very true that the lower they are to start with, the more effective the insulin is!!! Talk about rollercoaster :?

I am training the parents how to home test over the weekend (as I am away on Monday night and don't want them dosing without calling me with a reading first - poor parents!!!) so expect lots more numbers, although poor Haribo's ears are looking a bit ragged as I started with the new lancet and it's a bit stronger and I've bruised him in a couple of places :cry: . He's cool though.

I need to weigh him too as he has bulked up over the last 3 weeks.

I am so impressed with his response though - after having him so high for so long this is exciting (if a bit :o too!!)
 
Eliz,

I am also concerned about switching to the Lantus whilst he is doing this.....

In some ways I think it will probably help, in that the long duration could help stop the spikes? But I am a bit :o about swapping him when we're all over the shop like this........but then part of me says that you can't wait for him to be stable before changing him over as a DKA cat would go onto a new/first insulin and they're not exactly stable either??

Could do with some more of your excellent advice!!! On this dose the caninsulin should last till the end of next week at least.... then I would need to purchase another phial.......
 
Hey Jax.
I'm just typing this out to get things straight it my head & look for patterns...


20/03/2013 AMPS 23.7 (427) 3.5U
20/03/2013 PMPS 28 (504) 3.5U
21/03/2013 AMPS 21.1 (380) 3.5U
21/03/2013 PMPS 15.4 (278) 3U
22/03/2013 AMPS 19.9 (359) 3U
22/03/2013 PMPS 25.3 (456) 3U
23/03/2013 AMPS 26.4 ( 476) 3U
23/03/2013 PMPS 24.1 (434) 3U
24/03/2013 AMPS 20.2 (364) 3U
24/03/2013 PMPS 26.3 (474) 3U
25/03/2013 AMPS 21.9 (394) 3U
25/03/2013 PMPS 20.1 (362) 3U
26/03/2013 AMPS : 19.6 (353) 3U
26/03/2013 +6: 3.9 (70.2)
26/03/2013 PMPS : 29.2 (526) 2U
26/03/2013 +12.25: 32.1 (578)
27/03/13 AMPS 27(486) 2U
27/03/13 PMPS: 13.3 (240) 1U
28/03/13 AMPS: 27.7 (499) 1.5U

So his preshot numbers are definitely lowering on his new diet :thumbup , and I think you were right to drop his dose in response. As Eliz says, it looks like he is 'bouncing' when he gets too low for comfort, but I don't think he's Somogyi'd (new word!) as he'd be off the scale for 24 hours or more.

After the 13.3 preshot yesterday evening, you were right to have given him just the 1U. I think I would have stuck with the same dose for this morning, too. If the midcycle number of 3.9 you got on tuesday is indicative of how he is responding, then he's dropping well on the caninsulin.

You may well get a high number again tonight if he has dropped low again. I think I would keep him on the 1 unit until he starts his new insulin.

You're doing really well & I'm impressed a) that he's eating Bozita (I am sooo jealous - my cats won't touch it) & b) that his preshot BGs are dropping and c) you're adjusting his dose accordingly. Nice one, gal!

J
xx
 
Harrycat said:
I am also concerned about switching to the Lantus whilst he is doing this.....

In some ways I think it will probably help, in that the long duration could help stop the spikes?
Click to expand...


it will. At first it may look a bit weird, but it will get him stable.

Harrycat said:
But I am a bit :o about swapping him when we're all over the shop like this........but then part of me says that you can't wait for him to be stable before changing him over as a DKA cat would go onto a new/first insulin and they're not exactly stable either??
Click to expand...

Lantus will help him to stabilise. You may never get him regulated on Caninsulin as #1:it drops his glucose rapidly & #2: it leaves his system so quickly. With lantus, you should be able to get him regulated far more easily. The period of transition may well be a little weird for him & you may see some peculiar numbers for the first few days, but as his depot of insulin forms, and he starts experiencing that gradual release from the depot after a few days, your preshot numbers should change too. The sooner you switch, the better, really.
 
Oooo - is there a difference between a Somogyi and a bounce then...?? I thought they were the same thing?? ohmygod_smile :lol:

Okeydokes, I think prob sticking to a dose of 1 works for me too ;-) that way the phial of Caninsulin lasts 3x longer than it was going to at the beginning of the week too!!! :lol: so I can wait it out not having to switch insulins over the bank holiday ;-) and wait until my new (cheaper than the vets) u-100 needles arrive from Amazon :smile:

I think he is less enthusiastic about the Bozita now he has come down a bit, he absolutely goggbled it up to start with (but at that point he was starving and would have eaten anything). He is keener on the chicken than the Elk.. :lol: It's just quite new to me that he is actually LEAVING food as he has been ravenous for so long. I have ordered some different varieties for next week. There is some comfort in him leaving food as this shows how much better he is feeling. He is eating enough, it's just us getting used to free-feeding!

Now I am going to do some work (!) today, and test in an hour or so again..... I have nearly finished the 2 packs of strips you so kindly sent me (Had a few user errors!! :lol: ) as it needs slightly more blood than the Alphatrak but it's working so so well and I am very grateful to you. Anyone wanna buy an Alphatrak??? :lol:

xxx
 
So, he's putting on weight, AND leaving leftovers?!

Wowsers. :shock: :razz: Sounds like he is heading in the right direction! Really good signs!! Go Harrycat!

I do feel sorry for your poor parents! Talk about baptism of fire! Are they going to SMS you his BG readings? There's absolutely no way any of my friends or family would test Milo for me. They think I'm nuts for managing his disease like a human! :lol:

Can you get hold of new strips for the OneTouch easily?
 
Lol, parents will be fine. I've had them inject already but I've always bottled it and sent him to the vet the last twice we've been away and swallowed the cost of boarding him as it was safer (and because my sister has just had twins and she needed my parents help!!). There's 2 of them so one can hold the cat and the other can sweat and swear over trying to get blood......... :? He's very good really. His ears are used to it now so they should be OK.

I've already got new strips for the Relion off eBay, no problemo. I made sure I bought off a business seller as it makes me a bit :? that people could be getting the strips on the NHS and then selling them on eBay!!

My new needles have arrived and so has the Lantus. We are all set for next week!!
 
Hi Jax,

So, this morning you got a preshot number of 27.7(498.6) and then got a +4 of 11.9(214). That is quite a drop.

What I forgot to say earlier is that another reason for cats to 'bounce' is that the BG drops too fast. So, bounces can happen because a cat drops too low (ie hypo low, or just too low for comfort) or too fast.

If the Caninsulin started working at around +1.5 then Harry's BG could have dropped 15.8mmols in 2.5 hours. That averages out at a drop of 6.3 an hour (but the rate of drop may well have varied over that period). In my own cat a drop of more than 5.5 per hour will cause a bounce, and I think that is not uncommon. So...you may have Harry bouncing because of the speed of the drop and/or the numbers that he's dropping to. But at this stage this is conjecture.

Caninsulin typically drops fast and is then out of the system fast (often within 8 hours). Juliet has a lovely graph somewhere that she did of her cat Milo's BG readings while on Caninsulin, and it's a very graphic illustration of how this insulin can typically work in a cat.

It seems likely that the lower carb food is having an effect on Harry's BG numbers. But it could also be that his body is actually learning to utililse the insulin better (reduced 'glucose toxicity'). And it might even be possible that his own body is producing some insulin of it's own at times.

I agree with Juliet about sticking with the one unit dose during this interim period and seeing if things level out at all; but with the proviso that if you see a long period of high numbers - and given Harry's DKA history (?) - you consider increasing again. Are you testing his pee for ketones..?

I will just add for the benefit of others reading this thread (especially for any Caninsulin 'lurkers' reading this), that although Caninsulin is not considered an easy insulin to work with some cats manage on it just fine. And quite a few UK cats have gone into remission using it. ;-)
 
Brilliant - more pearls of wisdom :smile: . I thought it was a pretty hectic drop too, makes sense.

Nope I am not testing for keytones unless I absolutely have to as he pees outside and hates me shutting him in to get a sample, plus I hate the cat box out when I've got kids crawling around, so it's an overnight job only :? I know that's making excuses but it's an arse of a job (literally) as we have never kept a litter tray so I only do it to him when I have to. I am assuming you would ask this because keytones would indicate that he was too high for too long and therefore suggest a dose increase again?

He has only had one episode of DKA when he was first diagnosed. His only symptoms when he was diagnosed was the drinking, weight loss and food refusal. (Obv had keytones when first diagnosed too). We have never had any of the more scary ones (high or low).

He looks sooooooooo much better in himself since we changed the diet, I think perhaps because his numbers are lower he is actually getting a chance to catch back on the excess, and also the insulin is more effective on him because he is lower. Also, I have been injecting into his flank and not his scruff (as he was looking ropey on his scruff the other day). But with hindsight, I think that's because where he was shaved at initial diagnosis for his drip, it is finally growing back!! :thumbup
 
Can't claim it was all my own work - Juliet did that hard work!!! :cool: :lol:

Just got a reading of 19.1 so we're on the way up...... :?
 
NIce SS! Be interested to see how his numbers are over the last few days. Hope you are still testing and am looking forward to him moving to Lantus.
 
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