I PROPOSE

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a think tank discussion for the experienced on pro zinc. we have to have a protocol of some sort that we are all on the same page with. i am not of the school that lantus is 'better' but there protocol is well established. we can also learn alot with our mutual sharing. let's keep it clean and polite k? let's put our collective ideas and come together----we are losing too many users too lantus becuase we don't think a little frustration is normal...in lantus 3,4,5 months of intense frustration is par for the course becuase they have 'a protocol'
anyone who starts the think tank let us know...won't be me today..maybe tonight.
i'm going to the beach!
 
Yea, the thing is Lori that it just took me until very recently to appreciate the fact that there is no one set "protocol" for PZI let alone ProZinc. I just recently kind of had a revelation about it. I think it means that the approach to PZI is more nuanced, more accepting of varying approaches, more inclusive and requires a certain type of bean that wants more than just kind of blindly following a protocol. I can fully appreciate those who do not want to think about what they are doing at every shot. I do believe the 'easy' button has it's place, and IMHO one the training wheels are off PZI is amazingly 'easy' in it's own special way.

We [if I can speak for folks here in PZI in this point?] don't care how you get it done, we just want to you to get it done :smile:

Anyway, here are a few of my points about ProZinc [I think I'm one of the few who hangs around with PZI Vet and ProZinc experience]:
1) Small changes in dose can have seeming larger effects. I recommend 0.05u dosing increments below 1u.
2) Give ProZinc [or any insulin for that matter] about 6 weeks for the bean and kitty to get used to things.
3) I've observed fast/deep early nadirs at the start of ProZinc - especially when the dose is too low. Don't freak out - they tend to smooth out as time goes on and the doses are increased the duration extends and the nadir happens later.
4) My personal "protocol" is for fast and small changes in dose. That's 0.05u increases every 3 cycles up to 1u and perhaps even up to 1.5u. And definitely no more than .1u increments up to 2u but my experience with doses above 1u is very limited. Once the cat is reliably sensitive to a dose range then pull the training wheels off and go variable with hopefully the smallest dosing range possible. For variable, ideally aim for changes [usually lowering of PSs] in PSs of 30 under 300 and 20 under 200. Small changes in PS over 2, 3 or more cycles will get the cat to be where they need to be - don't aim for the ideal PS.
5) If you are changing from PZI Vet or BCP to ProZinc, IMHO do treat it as an insulin change and do the necessary testing. I didn't and got a surprise or two.

The above assumes the bean is doing the conversion and I'm not sure that is something PZI really wants to say folks HAVE to do. I think one of my main criticisms of SLGS is that it does not scale the dosing incriments [so smaller incriments as the dose gets smaller or larger as the dose gets larger]. .2u incriments [lol or .5 as SLGS hedges on] under 2u is pretty [if not too] large IMHO for ProZinc.

Ultimately, I used ProZinc in almost the exact same fashion as PZI Vet - in a completely variable/scale-ish type way. So, I think maybe, just maybe ProZinc was just very slightly less "forgiving" that PZI Vet - I won't commit to that though. Maybe some day if some of the older heads here switch we'll get more opinions on the PZI Vet vs. ProZinc topic.
 
i think prozinc just hasn't been out long enough yet to have enough users and enough knowledge about it and how it works to really have enough info for a protocol just yet.

while it's in the pzi family, from what i've watched, read, and heard about (here, other online places, and my own vet's clinic), it is substantially different as far as how it works for kitties in my opinion. my vet for instance was just telling me today that she's tried it on several clients now and it just isn't working as well as the old pzi from idexx did nor as well as she's seeing lantus work and she said she's done with prozinc. she even said that in several discussions that they've (bunch of vets) had on VIN, etc....they're all seeing the same thing and have decided that getting a cat to average 200-250 on prozinc is the best they're gonna get. my vet doesn't like that. all newly diagnosed kitties at her clinic will be put on lantus right from the get go she said.

don't get me wrong. i loved my pzi. still wish it was out there really. but prozinc isn't pzi, not from what i've seen yet. i had hoped that it would be simply because of the flexibility but given that Mousie is looking at long term diabetes, i can't have her sitting at 250 for the next 10 years.

so really, the few members here, using it, are the ones who will have to establish some sort of protocol for it, if that's possible, and that's going to take time. and believe me, from my early time on fdmb, i can tell you it probably will be a very intense attempt :-) and then, once figured out, everyone can follow it blindly until the next insulin comes out, just as people have done over the years with all the rest of the insulins that came before this one
 
LOL Lori you are BRAVE!!! I've tried a couple times posting on TT with a plea to get responses/input on something like that & no one bites. I have heard that Chriscleo wrote extensive guidelines some time ago and for unknown reasons they never got posted.

I started a thread a while back to get sticky input with the idea that we could at least get consensus on a modified SLGS approach, and got enough comments that it got me stalled. :) Which is where I landed trying to put a few basics in the sticky, but not go too far.

I agree a protocol would be nice. Not a "this is the only way" thing, but a "here's a good way to start for a cat without a lot of complicating factors".

More power to you. If I can help I will, but I'm low on time/energy, not to mention shy of Think Tank. ;-)

[ETA: and as Cindy points to, not having used ProZinc I may not be a huge amount of help beyond the basics. Though I think many of the PZ kitties we've seen here have gotten quite good #s. So I guess once again FDMB trumps the vets. :-D ]
 
For all you ProZinc bashers out there there is BCP too. So no need gettin' all chicken little and running off to Lantus. Come on folks! *sigh* Cindy, I'm sorry your vet can't handle it - does she know about BCP? And from what I've EXPERIENCED Cindy, ProZinc is PZI. This topic was not supposed to be an open topic to bash ProZinc by folks who have not even tried it. Sorry I've just read one too many of the ProZinc bashings by people who have not used it - it just is non-stop silliness really and quite obvious. I see this happening in Health and honestly it is one of the reasons I do not go there. It's sad. I wish folks here would understand that cats are not benefited by the proselytizing. This was supposed to be a topic about how to best help people using ProZinc, not a chance to pee all over it.

And if you really feel like ProZinc is not the thing then BCP is almost the exact same thing as PZI Vet. One can still have their cake and eat it too with PZI.
 
cindy your a friend, i love your whole family raul and kitties, but please understand...this is a pro prozinc topic and people who are not interested in using it successfully should not participate (at least not here in pzi) as it is counterproductive. we are really working very hard and we have had kitties who have done great with it.
mousie and you are on lantus..one day we all may be there too, but for now we are here and need all the knowledge and SUPPORT we can get...and we do have some positive knowledge.
there are a few hard to maintain kitties here, but the same is true on lantus.
just sayin k?
lori :smile: and tomtomt too!
 
Cindy, look. We need you in here. And I want you in here. I'm obviously at my snapping point.

PZI is probably the only group that has people actively in the group ["moles" ;-) lol] who have not tried the insulin actively attacking it and/or advocating other insulins without providing proper perspective. Further, in PZI we actively promote other insulins. I think that says something for PZI and a lot about other insulins and perhaps their users. If I went into Lantus and did that, I would get beaten around like the piñata of a wicked step child.

And Cindy I promise you the biased approach that is taken toward Lantus's furtherance is NOT in the best interest of kitties. For instance, I would spend more time helping kitties in other groups if it were not for the silliness. Further, for some beans and cats PZI is the best choice. And getting in the way of the one thing that is in the vets control [the insulin Rx] is dangerous IMHO. Some folks do not have other vet choices [or other vet choices may not be in the best interest of the kitty] and if they wreck that relationship they are done. I've frequently provided my perspective on how the proselytizing [which includes biased recommendations or recommendations without knowing the whole cat or bashing of an insulin that a person has not even tried] was counter-productive to me/us. I don't understand why there is such a need to continue with it - does it make anyone feel better? If you want to promote your fav insulin then great. Just please, please, please do it with sensitivity, objectiveness, completeness and caution - here AND in Health. I don't think most would do it if they had to follow those rules because they are just too lazy.

But seriously, can we lay off the ProZinc bashing - here and in Health? It's getting old and I'm tired of it. Can we play another song?
 
ya know gator..i was at my breaking point too and then i remembered jojo's comic relief when that would happen. that's why they have all the funny lingo, the surfing, TBP, BOS, GERMAN, Etc.
now i know if jojo were here right now she'd be anti pzi becuase i've talked with her and that's just her position. that's fine. but i always loved the casual way she handled frustration with humour...or use a hypo as a teaching tool to all the newbie's and invite them to watch, she has a knack of making all this crap seem less stressful and even fun.
go there if you can gator, go there!
now i'm gonna check FB and see if i've pissed cindy off. probably not :lol:
and i know she will not likely want to 'help' pro-zincer's not out of any other reason than that she has moved on. that is just what i 'think'.
 
actually my vet does know bcp and doesn't trust a compounded insulin, bcp's or any others. and fwiw, that's the same way i've always felt, for over 4 years, without any vet input on the subject for that matter. having customers who work at compounding pharmacies actually swayed me. my original now retired vet and the new vet are both more versed in feline diabetes than 90% of the vet's people come here with sooooooooooo, i do value and respect my vet's opinion on all this stuff. outside of a small handful of people i've met on fdmb, she would be the only person for whom i would do as she suggests.

no, i have no hands on experience with prozinc. from the day it hit the market i have been reading about it, watching people use it, and giving a lot of thought to it. so far i haven't seen enough to make me want to use it. so what. i like to learn. i like to know my options. that way, perhaps some day when it's figured out, i would give it a try down the road.

and fwiw, maybe take my choosing to not use prozinc as bashing or however you want to take it, but the actual point to what i was saying, that was clearly missed, is that there aren't enough users nor knowledge yet about prozinc to come up with a protocol just yet. i have extensive experience and knowledge about idexx's pzi, so i could tell you up down left right inside and outside about using that one. but as far as prozinc goes, and this is my point, what little is going on here in this isg is going to be the basis and the start of any sort of protocol that members of fdmb can figure out for prozinc, soooooooooo, taking the info here, journalizing it, analyzing it, discussing it, etc....is how you will come up with a protocol. simple. someone just has to be willing to take on that task.

and please keep in mind, lori requested a civilized discussion. :-)
 
and i'm ready to GERMAN up here. i do want to get a bit more aggressive. my two kitties are klinger and charlie. klinger needs kid gloves cause he's a total annomoly and IMHO charlie is still just a big gulper. i'd rather be charlie than klinger at this point. charlie is at least more predictable.
 
cindy maybe i used the wrong word when i said protocol. i want us to have a group think about the experiences of the last year. 2 kitties have gone otj and one is so well regulated he's the same as otj but still getting droplets.
i'm part of the think tank on this cuase i see it being my next insulin and also becuase i've worked with newbies on it and also cause i believe in it. lantus is not for everyone...altho with you schedule you may be the exception.
 
Cindy + Mousie said:
the actual point to what i was saying, that was clearly missed, is that there aren't enough users nor knowledge yet about prozinc to come up with a protocol just yet. i have extensive experience and knowledge about idexx's pzi, so i could tell you up down left right inside and outside about using that one. but as far as prozinc goes, and this is my point, what little is going on here in this isg is going to be the basis and the start of any sort of protocol that members of fdmb can figure out for prozinc, soooooooooo, taking the info here, journalizing it, analyzing it, discussing it, etc....is how you will come up with a protocol. simple. someone just has to be willing to take on that task.

and please keep in mind, lori requested a civilized discussion. :-)
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The actual point I was making that you clearly missed is that you lack the proper perspective to start bashing ProZinc. How do you know what I advocate in the use of ProZinc is somehow not "the answer?" LOL I certainty do not think I have "the answer," and I do not think there is any one answer [one answers are for other insulins]. At least was trying to contribute something constructive to the mix here Cindy. What are you doing?

"Little" as you are very aware is due in part to the proselytizing. You recognize that little is not beneficial so why do it?

I can civilly take you out to the woodshed. ;-) :smile:

Believe or not Cindy, your extensive experience with PZI Vet could really be put to a lot of beneficial use here in PZI for the use of ProZinc. I challenge you to jump on board.
 
lori and tom said:
and i know she will not likely want to 'help' pro-zincer's not out of any other reason than that she has moved on. that is just what i 'think'.
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i'd love to help prozinc people, as i have helped everyone over the years with everything i have learned, whether it be pzi, lantus, vetsulin, constipation, hypo, limping, skin conditions, etc..... but i too am still learning about it. i can only help with it's basics or start with "it's supposed to be like pzi and pzi would do this......." and for that matter, i've never been one to spend alot of time giving dosing advice, no matter the insulin. as lori knows, my life doesn't afford me the time to get too invested in that line

as far as moving on, if you mean away from fdmb, yes. if you mean moving on because i switched to lantus when i got over $200 of it for free and because my insulin of choice was discontinued and there wasn't anything else out there i felt comfortable trying at that time, that has nothing to do with it. i do my own thing as many know :-) . anyone that has been around and read much this year since i switched knows i'm not the biggest fan of lantus. yes, it sure is steady or whatever and the numbers are great but the schedule and the shed thing sucks to be rather blunt about it, but, like i said, with Mousie being type 1, i gotta do what is best for her and right now, what is best for her is not starting over, keeping her off a rollercoaster, and keeping her low so i don't kill her early with premature organ failure since we are looking at more than the average amount of diabetic years in our case :-) so don't worry, i'm still reading and watching and learning
 
ok kids...settle.
now back to the point brought to the table.. i only thought TT because i did'nt want newbie's to actually read this type of stuff. we can ask for a private TT with only prozinc friendly peeps joining in. if that would be respected. i actually wish we could have a conference call...but since this is what we have we could start a TT Pro ProZincers Only.
can we do that???
someone ask Venita. not I...I can't.
 
I think it's a great idea. Still being fairly new to Prozinc (Klinger started on Lantus) it would have been helpful to have posted, even on the current sticky, that newbies shouldn't shoot on a number below 200 and the 12/12 hr protocol is a little more flexible. Maybe this isn't the type of info you mean, but it would be nice to add it somewhere. We reached 7.5 units on prozinc because my vet had me start Klinger on 3 units BID and increased his insulin weekly by 1 full unit. Yikes!
Aww, Klinger, Lori thinks your special. ;-)
 
yes cindy..i meant moved on. altho it's always great to see you specially in health.
and you are a wealth of knowledge no doubt.
someone has to be actively pro prozinc so we gotta start somewhere and it helps if the peeps on board believe in it. would love to have you...but it almost sounded as if your vet did'nt believe or have faith in it and therefore you follow suit.
if you want to help please please do...and gator can't help being a bit ummmmm assertive at times...he's a really good guy and he definetly has a point. if jojo were saying what he was saying we'd naturally agree.
get on board for a general look at our last year or so of prozinc.
and my point about one problem with the lantus folks is they don't seem to mind months and months of aggravation with there numbers but we are so quick to jump out within a month or two of not getting it. and lantus is only to happy to push for that. we are like samson and goliath here...and you know i have good good relationship with lantus. but this is ours.
 
ugh! clearly trying to have a conversation on the internet is useless. "little" is in reference to the size of the isg, the quantity of people using prozinc, etc.....don't take everything so darn personal or literal for that matter. that's the whole problem with fdmb for so long, everyone's got their tights in a wad.

btw, i'll meet you at the woodshed any day. actually, i quite enjoy those meetings. ;-) :-D

lori, anyone can start a TT thread. you don't have to have permission. just do it. and anyone can see TT or here so what difference does it make if you do it here or there?
 
lori and tom said:
1. but it almost sounded as if your vet did'nt believe or have faith in it and therefore you follow suit.
if you want to help please please do...2. and gator can't help being a bit ummmmm assertive at times...he's a really good guy and he definetly has a point. 3. if jojo were saying what he was saying we'd naturally agree.
4. get on board for a general look at our last year or so of prozinc.
5. and my point about one problem with the lantus folks is they don't seem to mind months and months of aggravation with there numbers but we are so quick to jump out within a month or two of not getting it. and lantus is only to happy to push for that. we are like samson and goliath here...and you know i have good good relationship with lantus. but this is ours.
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1. nope, i already had my opinion formed before ever discussing it with my vet.
2. i know how gator is. i've been reading ever since he joined the board. i actually think i might have sent him a newbie kit ages ago. or was it cychow. one of those two guys up that LA way
3. i don't naturally agree with jojo. i want to but i have a gut and if i need to think things over then i do or if i need to ask questions, i always have. she can tell you that :-)
4. i have been reading. maybe not so much for the last 2-3 months cause as you know, we've been busier than holy hell at work.
5. i wouldn't think anyone is fine with months and months of bad numbers. i certainly have never been. personally, i lean towards if one is getting months and months of bad numbers, they're doing something wrong and it's their own fault, barring a health complication with kitty that would cause it. so if they need to change their dosing, their insulin, have kitty tested for other stuff, whatever, so be it, get off the butt and get it done. probably not a popular view of things but it's mine :-)

we're kinda OT though aren't we? i'll just go and you guys can get to your protocol stuff
 
you are soooo right it's hard to have a conversation like this.
big lantus meaning they are everywhere and they do prostelatize (sp)
small meaning we don't have a whole lot of support. ok?
i am in no wad..you came in at half time cindy where we've been having trouble getting a couple of cat's out of the hole. and lantus is regulary used as 'the change'
as for my TT idea...yes i do want only pro pro zincer's to post and that was what i wondered if it was ok to ask specifically for others to not post and turn it into a non productive circus.
for our little size and our lack of exp. we are a VERY friendly and mellow room for the most part. we'd like to keep the conversation that way.
ok? clear?
 
Lori, seriously if it can't even be done here in PZI it'll never happen in TT. ohmygod_smile :sad: And my conspiracy side says that was the intention.

IMHO it's important for PZI newbies to understand why in general the second they show up on this board why they are being hammered about other insulins. So in public is just fine so they can see the insanity.

Cindy, please don't let your genuine discomfort about giving an insulin to your kitty get in the way of what is best for other/all kitties. I know we see things different, I'm very open minded, I was willing to take the chance and I was somewhat foolish [I did not test enough] and I knew H did not have much time left and I wanted to add something to the PZI knowledge-base that would allow H to, once again, give back and we had visited the dude who did the studies on ProZinc [not that I advocate his methods]. And ultimately it became our only choice at the time because of a PZI Vet hoarder and my delays and our vet sitch. But we did it and it worked just fine ... after I started testing which wasn't much in reality. And I know you won't take my word for it. :lol: AFAIK there is not anyone here yet that has gone from PZI Vet to ProZinc that has chimed up to say that ProZinc sucks. And if they are out there, this IS your time to chime up and point out the differences and how that might help the ones using it. IMHO ProZinc *might* have some subtle differences, but in my experience was able to be used almost just like the old -with *maybe* some smaller tolerances but again I won't commit to that since I'm the only one who's sadly really added much input to the topic.

Yes, Cindy that was the exact interpretation to "little" - I did not take "little" to mean something else. :shock: lol We are a little ISG because in part of the proselytizing and it is sad.
 
You know, because Lori asked for it it made me go back to our SS. And looking back on it I'm pretty proud of what we did. If anyone really doesn't believe in ProZinc please read our SS. It CAN be done. I HARDLY tested and was able to keep the BGs below 300 for 5 months with a cat that had crazy stuff going on and with widely varying appetite.
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key ... XYwVFJ4M0E

A portion of our PZI Vet can be found here - if anyone really cares I have all PZI Vet in analog:
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key ... HR0NUNReXc

I don't like sharing our SS for many reasons. He had so much going on, this was not a normal cat and I made many decisions for various reasons that are not evident in his SS. And I would not expect all newbies to have those sorts of numbers - I had had lots of training with PZI Vet and H was like uber-cooperative in the small and big picture [I miss him so]. And I encourage newbies to test more than I did - our SS is not a good exemplem :roll: [and we had dry fud mixed in there - shhhhh!].

For some the numbers may be great, for others they may not be good enough. For me they were perfect. H was happy, I did not have to test much and because of that I was able to dedicate my energies to other parts of his care rather than being tied into focusing solely on testing. AND I was able to have somewhat of a life in a great city! I have no regrets.

Maybe the doubters out there can look at our SS and critique it?
 
i could only get your prozinc ss, not your pzi ss for some reason. just came up with his weight and diet stuff.
looked like a lot of blues to me...what's the problem with that?
gator you are right that a tt discussion might turn into a circus.
i wish we could have a closed door, invite only, discussion.
 
There is a Worksheet tab at the bottom of the PZI Vet one called "Blood Glucose's" that's the one with the abbreviated PZI vet ones.
 
A Few Final Words:

Levemir is the newest prescription human insulin in use for cats. Each owner using Levemir is gathering data for future Levemir users and should not take that responsibility lightly. Levemir has great potential which is as yet unrecognized by the veterinary community at large, therefore each Levemir user is a pioneer in Feline Diabetes management.

We thank you and your cat thanks you.


Vicky & Gandalf

Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 8:28 pm
Location: USA: Quincy, IL
Member since: 21 Apr 2005
Website

The above was copied from the Levimer stickie and now applies to Prozinc. That was my whole point, we are pioneering the protocol for Prozinc. Prozinc is a new and different insulin than any other insulins. It is probably a combination of all of them.

Gator - I agree completely with your first post with the exception of the .05 increases every 2 or 3 days, my old eyes can't see those tiny doses so my thought was to increase .1 and hold for 3 to 5 days. It worked for Harley.

Lori - Thanks for having the guts to post this, this is our TT thread.

Cindy - I miss you every day. I miss your pics and videos. I miss Mr. and the updates on Fuji, Please don't leave us, please support us.
 
LOL, Robin. That's the first time I've looked at your SS in a long time. I love the 45 days marker! LOL

OK so [even though Robin won't say it] for all you doubters/bashers out there, there are two of us that clearly use/have used ProZinc in a variable fashion very well. Robin is a step above me in testing and IMHO results. I think she is more appropriate/better exemplar than me. Thank you Robin for sticking around.

Robin, I see your "f" doses in there. You realize that is actually a 0.05 incriment? ;-) :lol: You are not as blind as you think.

There were quite a few times I came home completely blotto an hour or two late and things turned out OK. And for the times I did not come home blotto and did not have to worry about showing up on time - that was priceless. Sunset on the beach happens at a certain minute - luckily with PZI - H could wait. That's the magic of PZI. :cool:
 
BTW Robin sorry I did not catch it earlier, I believe in a 0.05u increase up to 1u and a .1 increase below 2u every 3 CYCLES not days. I know the trend here is to advocate longer and I'm personally not on board with it because it can delay regulation more than necessary. BUT I do acknowledge that is from the perspective of someone who might be quicker to pick up on trends.
 
Unfortunately, I'll be surprised if Charlie is not IAA/Acro. Nancy knows her stuff and I'll let her lead any day! You know I'm no pro with the higher doses [for whatever reasons they remain high] and tend to shy away from that. And from many reasons [including my schedule] I've wanted to stay out and away from the Charlie business, so I really haven't studied.

EDIT: Also for the benefit of the ProZinc discussion my belief is that it seems to take a while to ramp up to the right dose. Charlie's "good" curves at 2.5u might just be part of the getting used to period while the ultimate real dose might be higher [than the 2.5u]. they might be Charlie's version of the early steep curves without enough insulin?? Charlie hasn't seemed to get below 200 yet. And the drops from the 400's to X-hundreds with a 20% potential error in the readings is maybe not be as significant as they might be read as? I like the "gradual" increases back to 4.xu. Outside possibility of "liver training" needed.
 
Rob & Harley said:
A Few Final Words:

Levemir is the newest prescription human insulin in use for cats. Each owner using Levemir is gathering data for future Levemir users and should not take that responsibility lightly. Levemir has great potential which is as yet unrecognized by the veterinary community at large, therefore each Levemir user is a pioneer in Feline Diabetes management.

We thank you and your cat thanks you.


Vicky & Gandalf

Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 8:28 pm
Location: USA: Quincy, IL
Member since: 21 Apr 2005
Website

The above was copied from the Levimer stickie and now applies to Prozinc. That was my whole point, we are pioneering the protocol for Prozinc. Prozinc is a new and different insulin than any other insulins. It is probably a combination of all of them.
Click to expand...

thank you. that's pretty much what i was saying too. maybe just not in such a clear way i guess.
 
Goooooood Morning PZI!!!
whew, that went slightly south.
i still think the coversation is worth having...perhaps starting a new thread.
can we actually say 'positive feedback ONLY' and keep it that way.
and let's throw around our experience's.
even the newbie's are welcome i thought becuase they are actually on the battlefield and definetly have input. first i thought they would'nt but that' not right, they do.
so starting a new thread. don't be tired. re-energize.
Lori
 
fwiw I thought Cindy made good points. Although from what I have seen of ProZinc my take is quite different (the cats that I've seen struggle with it have the same problems to me as those who struggled with PZI Vet, and those who have done well on it have left me with a positive view of it), to me Cindy was just expressing her view of what she has seen and what her vet said. Since I always take vet/diabetes perspectives with a gigantic grain of salt, I just read it as opinion, not bashing. I may be naive, but I'd rather be naive & wrong than cynical & right. :-D

I think Lori wrote we've had 2 OTJs and one fully regulated - I think (hope!) the #s are a lot higher than that? I can think of 2 off the top of my head who went OTJ or extremely close (occassional shot) who have posted in the Recent Remissions thread, and I can think of a couple who went OTJ and never posted in the thread, and a couple more I lost sight of and *hope* went OTJ as they were on a track that looked to be going in that direction. As well as some posting here who are well regulated, and of course a few who are more challenging, but that is the case at any time in any forum I would imagine.
 
joanna only 2 come too mind..there very well may be more...but when you consider what a small group we are then to otj's in less than a year in a big percent. i'm sure there were more i just can't remember them. some came and went in under 30 days. as far as regulated super well that would be robin...and well regulated peeps just have to come forward and say so.
 
counted 5 ProZinkers in Recent Remissions thread, and I'm pretty sure there are at least a couple more who have come through, so I would venture 10 kitties either OTJ or well-regulated... of course that's not a huge #, but I still like it! :mrgreen:
 
it is HUGE when you consider how few peeps have even been here. that might be like 40%
 
And H was well regulated... add one for that column. Who are the well regulated ones besides Robin and I? Can we PM them and ask them to input into this topic? Were there ever any other besides me that went from PZI Vet or BCP to ProZinc? If so can we PM them too?

rest moved to positive topic.
 
Remission is one thing and successfully regulating for an extended period is another thing. I would like to address the folks who have successfully regulated ProZinc. Any ideas of people I should PM that we know who have done this or who we might suspect they have done this [who might have disappeared]?
 
well i could scroll back to when tom first went back on the juice and see who was around then. and count forward from there. i think we've been back since mid january.
 
excellent investigating gator, i can pm her. or you? i'll just do it now.
great work. she LOVES pz.
 
What about David? I forget his kitty's name - did they go remish? And then there was Soccer - but they went remish pretty fast.
 
if it's ok I would LOVE to learn more about prozinc. I used PZI idexx for 3 years with Merlin and loved it. I'm most comfortable with sliding scales and big doses I'm afraid at that. Had it been available for Boris I would have used it in a heartbeat. The vet that I had to deal with when I had to put boris back on insulin was more comfortable with giving me Lantus. But if you wouldn't mind me learning from all of you - I'd love to read along here.
 
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