Huge mistake...?

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Manouk & Billy

Manouk & Billy

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Hello everyone,

My cat has been diagnosed with diabetes this August. My vet has been really helpful with his sister which suffered from a severe condition at the time, but as far as diabetes is concerned, I feel like there's a lot of knowledge missing. Not that I blame her, nobody can know it all.

I started the treatment as soon as I received the news. Billy receives Lantus twice a day since; he used to receive two units a day but it got up to four after about a month. Since my vet told me that insulin should be handled carefully and that I dropped the bottle on the floor today, I was a bit scared that the molecules would be damaged. I have no idea if what I'm saying makes sense, as I feel like such a newbie to all this. I wish I would have discovered this message board sooner.

Anyways, I went to the pharmacy to get another bottle and asked if there was an expiration date on Lantus. My bottle was to expire in a couple of months and the vet told me it lasts a long time, but still, I just wanted to make sure. You can imagine how shocked I was when she said insulin had to be replaced after 28 days... I've been using the same bottle of insulin for my cat for 6 months now!

Can insulin last longer for a cat than for a human? Have I been shooting the equivalent of water under my cat's skin for the past 5 months? Or worst, have I been giving him dangerous medication? Were the last 5 months of treatment all for nothing?

Needless to say that I bought another bottle of Lantus today, but I am feeling pretty down, and I would like to know how harmful I have been to my cat's health... Thank you. :(
 
Most people find that lantus loses its effectiveness but this seems to vary. Chances are, yours has long since stopped working effectively. I'm guessing from your post that you do not test blood glucose levels at home, because if you did, you'd certainly notice changes.

Can we help you with treatment? Can you tell us more about yourselves, like how Billy was diagnosed, what he eats, whether you test at home, other medical conditions, etc.?

Jen
 
Wow, that was fast. Thank you.

Billy was diagnosed this summer. He has a... I don't know how to call this as I am not quite fluent in English, but it looks like a cyst and it is on his ear. Sometimes he scratches it and it bleeds a lot. At the time, he was going to the vet to get it removed, but I asked to have a blood test before just to be sure he'd be fine (he had had a surgery in the past and died for a second on the table, so I was really worried). That blood test revealed that he wasn't ready for such a surgery and that he needed to be started on insulin pretty fast. I've been treating him (or at least i thought I was) since. And the cyst is still there.

He eats Purina DM food. I was planning on switching him from dry food to canned in a couple of days. I read somewhere that canned food seemed to be better, but his sister (Mia) had a lot of tartar and it didn't seem to be a good idea to make her eat it too. And if her brother was having canned food, there is no way she would have accepted to eat dry food... Sadly, she passed away 2 weeks ago, so I am beginning to think of the changes I could make to help Billy have a better life, even with her not being around.

He has been acting a little different lately, but I didn't expect anything different, as he and Mia were really, really close. Anyways, I have been using the same insulin for such a long time that I think it stopped having effect more than just 2 weeks ago.

I do not test at home, but I would really love some help to start doing so. I should have a glucometer (or whatever it's called) by Sunday.

As for other conditions, he seems to have problems with his litter lately. I switched brands a couple of weeks ago for financial reasons, I don't know if that could be it. He stopped covering feces and urine and just gets out of the litter box as soon as he's done. He usually gets urine under his paws and literally jumps out of the litter box, putting litter everywhere. He gets some stuck under his paws from time to time so I try to clean them as much as I can, but he really hates it. I'm afraid of how much he could have swallowed trying to clean it off, actually. I'm switching him to the one we used to have today.

Billy will be 9 on April 16th. He's a little overweight, but not as much as he used to be since he has diabetes. Oh, and he hasn't been eating so well lately - he used to finish his plate in no time, but now it takes him the entire day before eating everything that he needs to eat. Although that might just be because he feels lonely without Mia. :/

That's about it. He's a pretty relaxed cat, he's always just laying down in what I like to call the rabbit position - on the back, with his front paws up his chest. Treatment never have been a problem - he purrs as soon as I approach him and sits when I tell him to - so testing him at home shouldn't be, either.
 
Welcome. You have come to the right place. The experts here are wonderful (I am not one of them). They helped me so much when Harley was diagnosed. I am sure you will find everything you need to know right here.

Pattie
 
I see you are in Quebec? I'm in Alberta :) Not certain if there are others in Quebec but we have members in Ontario and the maritimes...

Hometesting will be invaluable and you won't regret it. Wish I could comment on the cyst....I too have a cat who is sensative to anaesthetic but his issues come from the use of narcotic pain killers and not the actual anaesthetic.

Switching his diet will totally help, and it actually will not hurt his teeth...its a myth that dry food helps with dental health! My Squeak likely became a diabetic from his dental food....

Jen
 
I used to use my vial for up to 2 months before I started seeing the numbers creep higher - so that is probably why you had to increase the dose so much. Are you using the new vial now? If so, then your kitty might be experiencing dramatically different numbers. Is there any way to get a glucose meter before Sunday? Also, do not switch to a low carb canned food until you have that glucometer. A drastic drop in the carb content of the food can equate to a drastic drop in the overall glucose levels, which can mean he would need a drastic drop in his insulin dose.

Like Jen said, dry food doesn't actually help clean teeth like most people think. It is kinda like thinking eating potato chips will help keep our teeth clean :lol:
 
Welcome to FDMB - you've come to the right place for help.

I would suggest starting over again at 1 unit every 12 hours, since your old insulin was probably ineffective for a long time.

The diet change to high protein - low carbohydrate (grain-free) canned food will help reduce insulin needs too.

Most of us use the pen cartridges which come in a 5-pack (3 ml each) -- it ends up being less cost in the long run because the 10ml vial will go bad before it is used completely.

Humans would change pen cartridge every 28 days, but many here get more usage before noticing the blood sugar numbers going up (from insulin going bad or "pooping out" as we say).

Personally, I use Levemir (aka detemir) for my diabetic cat Tiggy. It is functionally very similar to Lantus (glargine) but it lasts longer -- instead of 28 days "guaranteed", it is good for 42 days "guaranteed".

a 5 pack of 3ml cartridges costs about $120 Canadian at Walmart or the big pharmacy chain store (I forget the name). Since i only live 35 miles from Ontario, I usually go buy insulin in Canada at lower cost that I can find it in the U.S.

The 5-pack of Levemir lasts over a year because I can usually get nearly 3 months before it goes bad.

Good luck!
 
I sure feel like there is a lot of mistakes I'll stop doing by coming here. :) And, yes, Quebec. Hence the difficulties with vocabulary and grammar - I'm much more used to French. This message board seemed to be full of helpful people and filled with informations, so I decided to give it a try anyway.

We had to increase Billy's dose during the first month of his treatment, so I am thinking it wasn't because of my old vial. As for today, I already gave him his shot so I will have to wait until tonight to change the vials. I wouldn't want to give him too much. :/ I have to go away for the week-end and will only be coming back on Sunday, that's why I'll start the testing then. People are coming to take care of him (one of these person actually has the glucometer I need), of course, and they'll call me if something seems strange. Everybody knows Billy pretty well so they'll be able to tell if there's something different in his behavior. I'll still be sure to check him tonight when I give him his first shot of the new vial, though. Do you guys think I should wait before using the new vial?

As for the food, I'll switch from dry to canned when I'll be able to test him. It's a relief to see that it should hurt his teeth. ^_^
 
Thanks a lot, Phoebe. I'll be sure to check that, too. 80$ a vial every month seemed like a lot more than what I could afford without cutting on my own food needs... :/

What is a pen cartridge? Does it mean I don't need syringes? I'm sorry if I am asking so many newbie questions...
 
Not a cartridge user but...humans use them, and we can use them as well, but a syringe is needed so keep your U100 syringes.

Don't worry about the language...while predominantly american here, there are people from all over the world including Asia, Europe and New Zealand and not eveyrone speaks english as a first language.

one thing you might also want to do is buy ketone strips from your pharmacy. Ketones are a possible complication from poorly regulated diabetes and its important to test Billy's urine for them when you can, until he's better regulated.

Have a good weekend and let us know how else we can help

Jen
 
The pen cartridge is basically a small tube shape instead of vial / bottle shape. One end has a rubber seal similar to the seal in the vial -- you stick the needle in a similar way.

You still use syringes to take out the insulin and inject your kitty.

We are very patient with language problems -- if you do not understand, please ask for more explanation. We have bilingual members here as well, so posting in French is ok if you don't know the right word in English.

I would start the new insulin right away at your next injection time and discard the old. I would reduce the dose since your insulin has probably been bad for a while. Jumping from zero to 4u will be like hitting with a baseball bat.

When a diabetic's blood sugar has been high, it is possible to develop Ketones. Ketones can make a diabetic (cat or human) feel very sick and can require emergency treatment at great expense and risk of death.

It would be a good idea to buy Keto-sticks for testing urine for ketones -- available in human pharmacies.

Sometimes when ketones are present, the cat (or human) has a sweet chemical-like smell.

Ask many questions - we don't get upset -- we want to help you and your kitty feel good.
 
Thanks to everyone. You're all very helpful, and very comforting as well. I'll use the new vial tonight and give him 1 unit. I'll probably be back after this week-end with a lot of questions about testing and ketones, haha. :)
 
Hi and Welcome!
You are DEFINETLY in the right place! You can feel confident in the good hands here!
The lantus solarstar pens are what I was using, and i was lucky enough to find a Safeway that would sell me one pen at a time, which was I believe $22.00. I would usually just buy one or two at a time..
The food change will also make a big difference in your sweet kitty!

And for the record, your English,grammar and punctuation is looking pretty darned good to me!! ;-)

As for your next round of questions, ask away...As jen said everyone here is helping in the same way we were when we first arrived!
Have a great weekend!
 
There are others in Quebec - Randi and Max are in Montreal I think.
I don't know if you can get Lantus cartridges in Canada but you can get Levemir which is a great insulin. Being in Canada, you don't need any rx for the insulins and you can just go the pharmacy and purchase a package of 5 cartridges of Levemir.

While at the pharmacy, you can pick up a regular glucose meter, test strips, and lancets. There are many types; many people use One Touch or one of many others. I have several meters, collected over time, and did like the various One Touch, ultra and mini, but my favorite at the moment is the Bayer Contour meter.

Just talk to your pharmacist, Shoppers Drug Mart or London Drugs, or any other near your home, and ask for a meter and everything needed to test blood glucose. You don't need to mention it's for a cat - I have gotten most of my meters free with purchase of the test strips. While you are there, please pick up a box of KETOSTIX as you want to be testing your kitty for ketones in the urine.

There are many people here who will help you along once you have all your testing items - every person on this site has been EXACTLY where you are now.

For food, you want to feed low carb wet food. The dry food, including any of the dry treats, will likely result in high BG numbers, but switching to the better wet food will mean less insulin is needed and that's the reason people are suggesting to start over at a 1u twice a day.

Any questions you have, please ask.
 
I am new to feline diabetes (three weeks), so I don't have any advice to offer at this point. I do know that the folks on this forum gave me spot-on info that might well have spared our cat Jayne a hypoglycemic episode, and I've found this whole site invaluable in terms of educating my boyfriend and me about the best way to deal with this condition. We started home-testing over this past weekend, and it has really made a difference insofar as our knowing where Jayne's blood glucose levels are before we administer her insulin shot (Jayne doesn't speak English -- which is our first language -- so she can't tell us if she's feeling this or that way!).

So very sorry to hear of the passing of your kitty Mia. Sending warm thoughts your way...
 
Hello and welcome. I'm a newbie too and this forum has made all the difference in the world in helping me get my cat Max healthy again. The diet change from dry to low carb wet (Max eats Fancy Feast Classic Chicken but there are many others) made a huge difference in Max's BG levels. As others advised, I'd hold off on the diet change until you're able to test at home and start low with the new insulin. With the help I received here, I'm happy to report Max is now off insulin and diet controlled. Best wishes to you and Billy. So sorry to hear about the passing of Mia. Oh and I had all the same newbie questions as you and am still learning too.
 
Bonsoir et bienvenue à la famille FDMB!

J'espère que mon français n'est pas trop horrible, il ya déjà quelque temps puisque je l'ai utilisé.

Mais vous vous trouvez dans de très bonnes mains ici! Tout le monde ici soit a ou a eu un chat avec le diabète le succès de leur traitement. Nous sommes toujours heureux de vous aider à répondre aux questions et tenir la main et la patte le long du chemin.

Rappelez-vous la seule question stupide est celui qui va non sollicitées.

Mel, Max & The Fur Gang
 
Welcome to you and your beau chat :-). My mother was french Canadian but my french is very limited. Compared to my french, your Eglish is very good!

My cat is on Lantus and I can use a bottle about two or two and a half months. After that it gets weak and doesn't work as well. You should be able to use the bottle you just bought at least two months. I agree with the other members that you should reduce the dose. Four units twice a day is a lot and you don't want to overdose your cat. One unit twice a day would be a good place to start.

Have a good weekend and I am glad you found this site!
 
You can see how Google translate works to edit your English back to French to see if it seems reasonable. I was actually able to understand a good deal of the German Diabetes Katzen using it.

English to French translation
Vous pouvez voir comment Google traduire des ouvrages pour modifier votre dos l'anglais au français pour voir si il semble raisonnable. J'étais en fait capable de comprendre une bonne partie de l'allemand Katzen diabète de l'utiliser.
 
Again, thanks to everyone.

Regarding my limited English skills, the translators do come in handy, but I usually don't need them. I just wanted to make sure everybody knew that if I do make common mistakes, it is because I am still learning. ^^

I just came back from my week-end so I haven't tested Billy yet. Dangerous roads have to be expected from time to time with Canadian winters. Billy has received 1 unit of insulin twice a day for a couple of days now and I have to admit he looks like he feels better. I received my glucometer (along with the instructions that goes with it) so I'll be testing him before his next meal. I may have a couple of questions then, but I'll go read the f.a.q. first. :)

Now, from what I understand, food for diabetic cats doesn't seem to be necessary to have a good diet. Since I'm switching from dry to canned, what would you guys recommend? I was planning on switching Billy to Purina DM since he's been eating the dry version of that brand for a while. But really, anything would do if it's good for him. My little guy would eat just about anything. :P
Any ideas? Of course I'd like to have something not too pricey, but quality always comes first. I don't know if that is relevant regarding the choice of a good diet, but just in case it might be: Billy is 9-year-old and overweight. He stays in the apartment at all times and his fur is neither very long nor very short.
 
Hi again :)

Glad your boy seems to be feeling better!

Food. You are looking for a few things
1. canned or raw
2. using Janet and Binky (GA)s charts, look for foods that contain less than 10% of the calories from carbs
3. depending on what you can afford, choose foods with no bi-products or at least with bi-products low on the ingredient list. Eg: 'chicken' vs 'chicken bi-products'.
4. do not buy only foods made from fish as they are high in phosphorous, may be high in heavy metals and are not an appropriate protein source despite what cartoons tell us :)
5. If there are other medical conditions then you may have other considerations as well. Some people choose to avoid wheat gluten, which is a protein, to avoid possible allergies.

This diet described above is good for all cats. For more, see www.catinfo.org
 
I hate to think how my non existent French would be on a forum. You are doing wonderfully well!

Glad you got your glucometer and will start testing. You want to test before each shot to make sure the dose you are planning to give is safe and then about 6 hours after the shot to see how the insulin is working.

Purina DM (wet) isn't a awful food. It is 7% carbs which is good, but it is liver based and most cats won't eat it for long. And it is very expensive. Most of us feed Fancy Feast, Friskies, Wellness or Merrick. Check out this chart: Janet and Binky’s chart
You want a food your kitty will eat, that you can afford and that is around or under 8% carbs.
 
my understanding is that both of those are fine. my vet actually sells those in her clinic, along with Wellness and raw varieties
 
You can also look at grocery stores in the pet food isle. Not sure what stores and brands you have there but fancy feast, friskies etc. are all options, and Walmart has a few brands that work as well.
 
If you want to start a new thread and ask specifically for foods in Canada, we have a lot of Canadian members who should be able to help.
 
Oh, good! I'll be sure to go check at WalMart's tomorrow before I ask.

I spent some time reading the infos available here but there are still some things I can't seem to figure out. When should I test Billy? He's now at +10 (meaning he had his last shot 10 hours ago, I hope I'm using the numbers correctly). He should be eating his next meal in an hour and a half. I understand he should receive the insulin after his meal, but how long should I wait before I test him?
Do I test him now and right after his meal to get some kind of a curve?

Also, I think he's having peripheral neuropathy because he hasn't been receiving the insulin he needed. That would certainly explain why he walks in a funny way. I thought it was his litter getting stuck under his paws, but I probably mistook the cause from the consequence. :/

Finally, I tried using a spreadsheet to put in my signature but as I click on new template it only loads a white page with nothing on it. I might need technical help -
 
Actually you want to test, then shoot and feed. Food can raise blood glucose levels and you want a "true" number, not one influenced by food. So you can test at +11 or +12, depending on how long he is willing to wait for dinner.

Better bg numbers and Methyl B can help with his legs: Neuropathy

Send me a pm (in the lower left hand corner of my post) and tell me what the problem is. I will be glad to help you get your spreadsheet working.
 
Hi and welcome to FDMB! The EVO foods are very good and complete nutrition, but a little high in fat. Unfortunately there was a recall announced today for the Wellness canned cat foods. :-x So I'd hold off on them. Be sure to check out the "old food chart" on Janet and Binky's page. Many foods never got updated for the newer list, like the Fancy Feast Classic varieties.

A lot of us actually shoot while our cats are eating, half the time thy never look up! :lol: If you are transitioning from dry to canned you may want to gradually change over several days. Put a little canned out next to the dry and every day a little more canned and a little less dry. No sudden changes that way.

If you shop at Walmart you may want to look into one of their Relion brand meters. The expense in testing isn't in the meter, it is in the cost of the strips. The relion meter is a good one and the strips are much less expensive then the big name brands.
 
I received a free glucometer from a friend that works in a pharmacy, so it helps. It's an Accu-check compact plus. :)

I just tested Billy and he's at 18,3 (times 18 equals 329 for US numbers, I think that's how they work?). +11 after his 1 unit dose this morning. I should give him his pm dose right now and feed him afterwards, right? Does 1 unit seem good with these numbers? They look pretty high, should I try 2 units?
 
MommaOfMuse said:
Bonsoir et bienvenue à la famille FDMB!

J'espère que mon français n'est pas trop horrible, il ya déjà quelque temps puisque je l'ai utilisé.

Mais vous vous trouvez dans de très bonnes mains ici! Tout le monde ici soit a ou a eu un chat avec le diabète le succès de leur traitement. Nous sommes toujours heureux de vous aider à répondre aux questions et tenir la main et la patte le long du chemin.

Rappelez-vous la seule question stupide est celui qui va non sollicitées.

Mel, Max & The Fur Gang
Click to expand...
Bravo! Je ne savais pas que tu parles français!

I am from Quebec, living in Toronto. Nathalie (and Pelusa) is in Montreal and I believe there are others. Your english is fine :smile:
We usually use Wellness and sometimes FancyFeast. Actually, with the current Wellness recall, it's Fancy Feast only for now.

Welcome!
 
I don't use your insulin. I asked someone from the Lantus forum to stop over or you could post there yourself and ask for advice. viewforum.php?f=9 Just be sure to include NEWBIE and NEED DOSE ADVICE in your subject as this time of night it moves pretty fast. They all use your insulin and will be able to give you good advice.

Everything I have read about Lantus says you hold the dose for several cycles - that switching from am to pm messes it up. But they will be able to give you the scoop.
 
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