how much should the numbers change when testing?

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katlady1974

katlady1974

Member Since 2013
is it normal for them to change quite a bit from the beginning to middle? i mentioned before that i'm doing Timber's first curve at home today. lastnight was 27 (486) at the vet (an hour after insulin). this morning was 29 (522) before insulin, then 21 (378) at 2 hours later and 10 (180) at 4 hours later. he's due for the next test in about 45 mins and that will be his midpoint. but i'm just curious if this is "normal" or does it suggest something needs to be changed?
 
Sometimes they do have quite a drop from PS to nadir (the lowest point during the cycle) and if you are on an L insulin this is really the number you base the dosing off of. PZI is dosed based off of the PS #. This is why it is important to do midcycle tests and curves help you figure out when in the cycle is the best time to test. For my girl her nadir is at +10 (on lev) so getting up at 3am to do her test is fine for me and gets in a mid-cycle since I can't get one during the day.

As Timber starts getting better the hills and valleys should become closer to each other and he won't send you reeling so much.
 
I've seen my Chester drop over 350 points over the course of his day, but I also know that's a pretty extreme drop.
That kind of change can actually send him higher afterward because of the body's reaction to the big drop. The body can actually produce glucose if it senses that levels are "too low" (even if the lower number is a perfectly healthy number!) which ends up raising the BG above where it might normally go. This is sometimes called a "bounce" and can take a few cycles to really clear out.
Chester is a bouncy boy like that - especially when we're increasing his dose. As long as the lowest number of the day is a healthy one (not too low) I try to hold him at that dose for several days to see if the bounce clears. Smaller dose increases seem to keep him from bouncing as much or as long.
But then there are just bouncy days. No changes to dose, food or routine. He'll just run low then swing high...

Your guy may just be fine with it. It can take a while to get regulated and for the numbers to level out.
 
thanks for the info!! i'm interested to see what the vet says about all of it.

i just tested him at 6 hours and it was 12.8 (230), so up a bit from last time.
 
This might be helpful for you. It is the typical Lantus cycle and shows how the numbers might change over the course of 12 hours. Some cats have earlier nadirs (+4 or 5), some cats have later nadirs (+7 or +8), and some cats have both earlier and later nadirs. This is when you hear the ECID (Every Cat Is Different) slogan. ;-)

+0 - PreShot number.
+1 - Usually higher than PreShot number because of the last shot wearing off. May see a food spike in this number.
+2 - Often similar to the PreShot number.
+3 - Lower than the PreShot number, onset has started.
+4 - Lower.
+5 - Lower.
+6 - Nadir/Peak (the lowest number of cycle).
+7 - Surf (hang around the nadir number).
+8 - Slight rise.
+9 - Slight rise.
+10 - Rising.
+11 - Rising (may dip around +10 or +11).
+12 - PreShot number.
Click to expand...

It might also be helpful to check out a few spreadsheets that people have linked in their signatures and see how far cats can drop. For example, in my spreadsheet for Michelangelo, on 5/7, he went from 280 at his morning pre-shot to 198 four hours later. (I didn't get a +6, but knowing how he reacts from previous cycles, he was most likely around 100).
 
To chart your results it would look like

AMPS 522
+2 378
+4 180
+6 230

Did you get any more tests in? Remember food can vary these numbers and alter the curve.. especially if you are feeding dry at any point. I am hoping your plan is to transition him off the DM dry entirely as that will help bring these numbers down.

Do you want help with a spreadsheet?
 
Due to the +/- 20% a meter may read .com two tests are equivalent when the lower number + 20% overlaps the higher number - 20%.
 
sorry i didn't update any further yesterday!

AMPS 522
+2- 378
+4- 180
+6- 230
+8- 522
+10- above 600 (meter wouldn't give me a specific number)
+12- above 600 (meter wouldn't give me a specific number)

vet said i should increase his insulin from 2u to 3u just at night. so this morning i gave him the usual 2u. and i only put down a tiny amount of dry (vet said not to cut it out entirely if he's used to having it). i didn't get a chance to test him this morning as i was talking with the vet and trying to get the kids ready and out of the house to school and then off to work myself- need to organize mornings better!

i tested him before his night time insulin and he was 325. so then i was worried about giving him and increased dose of insulin if his level wasn't as high as the night before. i called the vet and she said to keep him at 2u and test him before insulin to be sure. i'm wondering if it made a difference that he didn't eat as much dry food today???? i'm going to wean them but i'm afraid to do it cold turkey!! :lol:
 
Your vet has forgotten that many cats go lower at night (less activity) and that even dosing works better for most insulins.

Plus, if you increase in whole units, you may miss the optimal dose ... which might be 2.5 or 2.25 or 2.75.

I would strongly encourage you to consider 2.25 units. Yes, you'll need to eyeball the syring. Small, careful adjustments are safer for your cat ... especially if you won't be home if a hypo occurs.
 
Great job on the spreadsheet - that gives us much better idea of whats going on!

I would hold the dose for now, but gradually decrease the amount of dry and increase the wet over the next 5-7 days if you are worried about it.. also makes it easier on his tummy in case of possible stomach upset. Maybe create a plan ie

Friday 1/2 cup dry + 1 can wet
Saturday 1/3 cup dry + 2 cans wet
Sunday 1/4 cup dry + 3 cans wet
and so on. ( I just made up the quantities for illustration purposes.)

We can work out a rough estimate of much he should be eating if we know what his ideal weight is:

Required calories per day = [13.6 X ideal weight in lbs] + 70

FF wet is about 85 calories a can and DM dry is about 270 a cup i think. Because he is currently unregulated though you should weigh him every week or two and adjust the quantities if you find him losing or gaining.

Wendy
 
Also I just noticed the PMPS + 4. Did you get a +6? I wonder how low he dropped last night. You may see a bounce to high numbers in reaction to that today.

When you see the number dropping like that I would get another test at +6 since that can be maximum lantus action (although it varies)
 
i wasn't able to do a +6 test as that would have been 2am. when i did his curve he was lowest at +4 so i figured that would give me a good idea. and he was up higher this morning, but in the red and not the black.
 
the food plan looks great- the only problem i have is that i have 2 cats (brothers) who eat together. separating them really isn't an option for me- especially in the morning. our house isn't that big plus i work full time and have 2 young children. mornings are insane. plus they don't eat the whole can of food at once- they go back and forth throughout the day. so it's just not possible. i've put 2 cans of fancy feast (1 in each dish) down twice a day. and then a little dish of about 1/4cup DM dry twice a day. prior they were getting a dish of about 2 cups of dry and i would make sure it was never empty!
 
Ok then slowly decrease the dry more and increase the wet and they can nibble the wet through the day. If you are worried about them eating it too early, or drying out, you can freeze it (take out of the can first) and make cat foodsicles and it will defrost and they eat it then.
 
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