How much should he eat before I consider a shot?

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Terri&Kit

Terri&Kit

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Kit is eating weird. He'll eat at night, but not during the day. He didn't eat any thing at all yesterday between his AM shot and his PM shot time. So he didn't get a PM shot yesterday. He scarfed down 2 cans of FF last night (with a little kitty crack sprinkled on top) about 2 hours after he was supposed to get his PM shot. His AMPS was 304. Since he ate over night, I felt it was safe to give him his shot, figuring he would eat today since we discovered the kitty cat sprinkle was working. Well...I go home to check on him and he has eaten only 1/2 can of FF and his +6 is 63. I put out fresh food with kitty crack sprinkled on top. I'm headed to petsmart after work to get some of the things everyone suggested in the PZI forum last night. I know don't shoot if he doesn't eat, and don't shoot under 200 since we are newbies, but how much should he eat before I consider a shot (assuming his PMPS is over 200)? Oh and I'm definitely decreasing his dose. So suggestions on that would also be helpful.
 
How much did you shoot?
I am not sure if it matters how much they eat, just so long as they eat something. They shouldn't get inlulin on an empty stomach.
That's not to say just give a few treats and all will be well. Just that I think as long kitty eats maybe like 1/4 can of FF or something like that.
Callie Mae has been on a wet diet for quite some time now, and has many flavors I rotate through, but as of lately, she won't eat it unless I make it soupy. :roll:
Go figure. She's a cat. Next week she will want it cold. Who knows.
Your getting great numbers.
 
Just looked at your SS and I see Kit is on 1u.
Not really a lot of data there to go by, but it seems like Kit is surfin' for a long time for just 1u a day.
Perhaps when you get into a shootable number, you might want to decrease your dose a little to see if that might go better.
Others will be along shortly.
Hang tight.
 
We just started insulin yesterday, that's why there is no data lol. I shot 1U yesterday morning and 1U this morning. He didn't even eat his treat after I checked his BS. Oh I'm hangin tight, believe me. Just a little frustrated that he was fine on the FF for the last 5 days and now that we have insulin, he's being a pain! Guess that's payback for all the times I accidently knocked him off the bed lol. I was thinking of reducing to maybe .5 if I get him to eat. I mean he dropped from 304 -> 63 on just 1U. Is that normal?
 
Terri&Kit said:
I mean he dropped from 304 -> 63 on just 1U. Is that normal?
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Every cat is different, Musette went from a pmps of 417 to an amps of 36 on .75u and then I think she took until around what would have been her +6 that day to even get to a shootable number...So yeah it can happen, just depends on the cat. That is why we home test...they like to throw us curve balls. :-D

Mel, Maxwell, Musette & The Fur Gang
 
I think that it is a delicate line because if the cat doesn't get insulin, bgs go higher and the cat may even feel less like eating. So if you can get some treats or something in, I'd give a token dose (eg. 0.5 units)....but please monitor after to see how things go.

Jen
 
Terri&Kit said:
We just started insulin yesterday, that's why there is no data lol. I shot 1U yesterday morning and 1U this morning. He didn't even eat his treat after I checked his BS. Oh I'm hangin tight, believe me. Just a little frustrated that he was fine on the FF for the last 5 days and now that we have insulin, he's being a pain! Guess that's payback for all the times I accidently knocked him off the bed lol. I was thinking of reducing to maybe .5 if I get him to eat. I mean he dropped from 304 -> 63 on just 1U. Is that normal?
Click to expand...

I think that reducing the dose and working your way up is a good idea, given how long duration has been. He could be getting too much. Try starting with 0.5U on the next shot and stay there for a while so you can see how he reacts. The not eating concerns me though. Was he just switched to canned food?
 
Terri,
I found this thread today on the Think Tank forum. Please read it because it pertains to dosing/no dosing when kitty won't eat. Hopefully the treats from Petsmart will get him eating right and it won't be an issue. Otherwise, you might want to look at "forcing" him to eat.

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=9070&p=518126#p518126

The large drop in BG on 1 unit is awesome. But if he doesn't eat anything, that also could have a lot to do with why his BG is so low.

Carl
 
I'll just throw out there that it is easier to decide on what to shoot in this case with your pro zinc (as opposed to other insulins here)
If you see reduced, smaller numbers you can shoot those numbers.
If you see an unshootable number, you skip shot.
You can wait to see if number rises....but don't even think about shooting under 150 if you are new.
And likewise, you can shoot your higher numbers higher doses.

The pro zinc allows this kind of dose hopping, if you will, whereas with the L insulins and their sheds it becomes a more steady eddy, complicated matter.

So, shoot if you can. Monitor. And get your cat to eat....even if it the forbidden fuds.
Lori
 
Ok, first, he was switched to canned food a week ago and has been eating fine until yesterday when I gave him his first insulin shot. I got several different kinds of treats at petsmart. He wouldn't even eat the treat, let alone the treat sprinkled on top of food.

Second...I read that post. And yes, it makes sense that eating or not, insulin in the body is necessary. However....I'm sorry, but I am not giving him insulin when he hasn't eaten all day and his BG is 134. I'm just not doing it. The insulin is dropping his BG so radically that I'd wake up with a dead cat in the morning.
 
You are right. With PZI you should never shoot if the numbers are lower than 200. And my rule is no food, no insulin. If my cat won't eat, I assist feed. If your cat isn't eating though, you need to figure out why. If that means giving food she prefers more that is higher in carbs, so be it. Cats can get hepatic lipidosis very quickly if they don't eat sufficiently, so it is important to ensure your kitty is getting enough calories daily. Has your vet checked for any other conditions that may be tied to diabetes such as pancreatitis?

Is your cat showing any interest in food, such as acting eager to eat but when food is presented, sniffing at it and walking away? Is she grinding her teeth when eating? If so, she may be nauseated and treatment with an anti-nausea drug like ondansetron may help get her over the hump. However you need to find out why that's the case. I'd suggest that first before trying something like an appetite stimulant, which vets sometimes jump to first.
 
wendy what does the sniffing it and walking away mean? nausea?
 
hey i have some ondansetron from when i did chemo. 8mg tablet.
what is the feline dose?????
 
lori and tom said:
hey i have some ondansetron from when i did chemo. 8mg tablet.
what is the feline dose?????
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1 mg twice per day. You'll need to cut up the tablets into 1/8 segments. It works great, by the way. I've used it on two cats now. If nausea is seriously bad, there is something else called anzemet in an injection form, but ondasetron is great stuff.
 
wombat88 said:
Has your vet checked for any other conditions that may be tied to diabetes such as pancreatitis?
Click to expand...

Yep, all clear.

wombat88 said:
Is your cat showing any interest in food, such as acting eager to eat but when food is presented, sniffing at it and walking away? Is she grinding her teeth when eating? If so, she may be nauseated and treatment with an anti-nausea drug like ondansetron may help get her over the hump. However you need to find out why that's the case. I'd suggest that first before trying something like an appetite stimulant, which vets sometimes jump to first.
Click to expand...

He's so not interested that he isn't even eating his treats after his BG tests. He was pretty excited last night when I put 5 pieces of kitty crack in front of his face. He ate 2 cans of FF last night with some kitty crack mixed in. He ate about a tablespoon of food 20 minutes ago. And has only eaten about one other tbsp of food all day. It's time for his PM shot. His BG is 189. And I have no idea what to do.
 
Does he like tuna?
If you have a can or pouch of tuna, see if he will eat at.
Callie Mae can't resist the tuna..... :lol:

I am worried with you over Kit not eating. Those numbers show he's going back up now. if you can get him to eat the tuna and he goes back over 200, i would go with like .5.

Hope you can try the tuna......... nailbite_smile
 
He was under my feet the whole time from the minute he heard me opening the can. He lapped the broth off of it and that was it. As he was lapping, I got some of his food out of the fridge and put some in a bowl. He came over under my feet, meowing like he was ready for it! I sit it down, he laps the broth off and was done with it. So I took some of the broth off of the tuna and mixed it in with the food and added a little water, making it EXTRA soupy. Nadda.
 
Those damn kids .........:lol:
Put some more water with the tuna and offer it again.
You said you ordered some Fortiflora, right?
Hope that comes soon. A local vet's office may sell you just a pack.
That is how I was able to get mine.
 
I took a handful of kitty crack and dropped it on his wet food. Didn't grid it up, just put it on there. He nosed around all 3 bowls. He ate some. But I have no idea how much as there are a row of bowls across the floor lol. I'ma check his BG again.
 
OK, from the way you describe his actions, he's hungry. Otherwise he wouldn't be paying attention and up around your feet when he hears or sees the ritual normally asssociated with being fed. He's trying to tell you that he wants to eat, but you aren't understanding what he wants to eat. Now you have to figure out what exactly he wants, or you're going to have to insist that he get something in his belly. That might mean watering down food and using a syringe to squirt it in his mouth. He needs calories in some way shape or form.
Force feeding is actually not that hard. From doing wildlife rehab, I know it's not hard to make an animal eat. Problem is you probably don't have the necessary tools. We used big syringes that can hold 10 or 20, up to 50 cc's of food, depending on the animal you're feeding. Of course there's no needle. These things either didn't use a needle, or were intended for use with catheters. Sometimes, like if it was a racoon we were feeding, we'd just cut off the "needle" end and use it that way. You can squirt food easily and quickly into his mouth and once it's there, he'll swallow it. Sometimes with a racoon, or any animal that didn't want to be fed, we'd wrap it in a blanket so it couldn't escape or use its front legs to resist. We called it the "possum wrap" becasue opossums were what we rehabbed most. Here I've seen it called the "kitty burrito". Same concept.
The important thing is to get food in him so that you can give him his insulin. Whether that's 1 unit, half a unit, or less. If he doesn't get food, he might develop worse symptoms, like dehydration for instance. You want to limit his "problems" to "just" the diabetes right now. You don't even want to go down the DKA or even the rehydration road at the same time you are trying to begin the home test and treat route. Believe me, I've been there, done that, and it really sucked, as much for me as it did for Bob. I haven't had a real night's sleep in 8 or 9 weeks.

Carl in SC
 
well, I'm not sure how to digest this information in your case, but this is an interesting read. Despite Kit not eating, you need to give him some insulin, as was discussed here.....
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/view ... =22&t=9070

But you only have 2 days worth of data, since you just started, so it's hard to figure out a good dose. 1u gives him long duration with ps numbers near 300.
you are looking at 189, likely on the rise.
I say shot .4 or .5 if you can get a few tests in to see how he reacts to that.
Hopefully others will come along and chime in, because I'm just guessing.
But I know you are probably anxious right now wanting to know what you should do. I have been there.

But my dosing suggestion is JUST A GUESS as I do not have much dosing experience. I always listened to these guys... :lol:
 
Okay, 212 is not bad. In a month, you'll think it's outrageously high, but right now, 212 is not bad at all.
Plan B if you don't have a suitable syringe:
In the baby food aisle in the grocery store, they sell medicine droppers like you'd use if your infant was prescibed amoxicillin or some other fluid medicine. They are a big plastic syringe looking thing with a rubber bulb on the end (like a miniature turkey baster).
You can mix wet food with warm water to make a really tasty looking concoction with the consistancy of baby food or mush, suck it up into the dropper and squirt it into his mouth. You want to stick it into his mouth toward where his jaws meet, behind the sharp pointy teeth. He might try to bite down on it, but with no effect. Once it's in there, just squeeze the bulb and wait till he swallows, then repeat as often as he'll let you. Good thing about this sort of feeding device is that when you're finished, you can just clean it and use it again.

I hope you don't have to resort to doing something this extreme, but wanted you to realize it's an option if you run out of other ideas.

Carl
 
I'm trying anything I can at this point. He ate about 2 tbsp off of my fingers just now. I put down fresh food warmed for a few seconds and covered in kitty crack powder. Should I give him insulin?
 
And I did put down a bowl of plain kitty crack. He isn't eating it either, so I don't think it's the wet food that's the problem.
 
an inappetant cat is at risk for developing ketones so you need to be testing his urine if you can. Pepcid ac (not complete) helps with nausea, and force feeding is definitely a viable option.

I would never suggest a shot at 134 for a newly diagnosed cat, I would however consider a drop or two of insulin at 200 if those numbers continue.
 
Terri,
I can't tell you yes, and won't tell you no. Very important - ECID (every cat is different). All I can tell you is my personal experience.
First, you're using PZI which is a very "forgiving" insulin. So am I. I've seen others who use lantus or levimir remark that PZI is gentle, and less "rigid" in terms of holding to a strict 12 hour schedule and such. I don't know that for sure, since the only insulin I have any experience with is PZI, and the only cat I have knowledge of is my Bob.
I can tell you this: I have shot Bob with 1/2 a unit when his BG is just over 100, and monitored it closely, and have never seen his BG drop below 50. I've been treating him for about 9 weeks and I've never had a hypo incident, thank god. I see people post that they are dosing .1 units, .3 units, etc, but I've never dosed less than .5 units. Bob has been as high as a BG of 500, and he's gotten as much as 7 units per day during this 9 week dance. In the past 3 days, Bob's highest BG has been 81, his lowest has been 69, and he hasn't had any insulin since Monday. But Bob has never gone through the "I'm not eating no mater what you give me, dammit!" syndrome either. Getting him to eat has never been a problem, so he's been getting dosed based on a daily calorie intake of at least 2-3 cans of FF classic a day. I haven't had to worry about not giving insulin due to not eating.
I really wish I could tell you what to do, but you and Kit are going through something I haven't had to deal with.

KIT - YOU NEED TO EAT!!!!

Carl
 
Terri,
Go start a new thread over in the pzi forum with your new numbers and see what them guys think.
There might be a few more pzi folks still online and that's probably the best place to catch them before they sign off.
 
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