How much food? Help!!

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Dotsmommy

Member Since 2013
We were just diagnosed yesterday. We were told to feed 1/4 cup once a day of Purina DM and give 1.4 units of humulin n. I have decided to go with Fancy Feast classic based on what I have read and for financial reasons. My baby is down to 6 pounds and had a glucose of 565 before diet and injection. Should I try diet only for a while and how much food does he need daily? Help!! I am overwhelmed!!
 
Hello there and welcome to the board! Dont panic. We can help!

You made a good decision to come here and Fancy feast classic is a good food choice . However as you may have read Humulin N isnt the best insulin for cats and certainly not if you want a chance for your kitty to go into remission. Lantus, Levemir or Prozinc are much better. I would discuss those with your vet. Lantus is around $150 but it should last you six months.

The second thing I strongly recommend is home testing. It keeps your kitty safe and gives you more control. It also saves $ on expensive vet curves. If you are short of cash you can request one for free here (there might also be Lantus available): http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewforum.php?f=15 Worst thing you can do is shoot your cat with insulin when it is too low. You should prepare a hypo kit - see link below for that.

here is some more information on home testing etc . https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Rd6sMfsrNB41yQVEqpyjlHrJsDIbGEhbRIWR4QAwu3c/pub

Take a read and let me know what you think.

Wendy
 
I work in a doctor's office and asked the vet specifically about those insulin products and was told humulin was all he would recommend? Should I go out on my own with lantus? I'm sure my dr would write it but I wouldn't be following my vet's advice. I really had rather use the lantus.
 
Yes kcals is calories. Fancy feasts are around 90 per can, but as I said I would tend to feed him as much as he wants assuming he doesn't start to put too much weight on.


Where do you live? You might want to find a better vet. Here is logic on the insulin types
Humulin N is a short acting insulin in which is hits hard dropping the blood sugar fast but in cats wears off in about 4-6 hours since cats metabolize insulin twice as fast as either humans or dogs. When it wears off the blood sugar rises right back up because there is no insulin on board for another 6-8 hours to help the body control the blood sugar until you give the next shot.

The three favorites here are Lantus, Levemir or Prozinc both of the Ls are human insulins and what are known as a depot insulin where one shot builds on the next one causing an overlap so that kitty has insulin on board all the time while both the Ls can last up to 24 hours in a human it does last 12 hours in a cat, they are also a more gentle insulin in that they bring the blood sugars down more slowly but hold them longer...Prozinc is a pet only insulin but it also is a long lasting insulin, but is what is known as an in and out insulin...in that by the time the next shot time rolls around it is wearing off. Any of the 3 are a better choice than Humulin
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Wendy
 
We live in a small town and the next closest vet (that isn't owned by the same people) is 45 minutes away. We have already put out $150 for diagnosis at the only clinic in town and are suppose to go back weekly for glucose checks. I don't know what to do......
 
Weekly for glucose checks?? How much is that going to cost?! And given cats are stressed at the vet, they aren accurate either.

Ok how about you read the various links on here and see what you think.https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Rd6sMfsrNB41yQVEqpyjlHrJsDIbGEhbRIWR4QAwu3c/pub

Then if you wander around the forum and like what you see, call the vet 45 minutes away and ask if they will prescribe lantus and how they feel about home testing. Here are vet interview topics If the vet sounds good call your own vet and tell them you want lantus and will be doing home testing or you are moving to the new vet. If you end up with the new vet then it's ok they are 45mins away as you won't be there that often.

Then you get the lantus and start home testing. No more need for vet weekly checks, we can help you with the testing etc.

Wendy
 
:) let us know how you get on. That vet of yours seems to think he can do what he wants cos he is the only one in town. He is in for a shock ;) he works for you remember?
 
Welcome Dot and Dot's Mom (Your name would be awesome here)

I have 2 diabetics that I adopted as diabetics and neither of mine have seen the vet's for anything other than routine kitty stuff. Everything concerning their diabetes I handle at home. Put I also feel your pain about being in a small town with limited vet clinics to choose from, while we have a grand total of 3 here, I wouldn't take a pet rock to 2 of them. I actually ended up training my vet with what I learned here from these excellent folks, and now they call me when they have a new diabetic patience so I can teach their fur-parents to test and shoot. :-D

I was very lucky my vets are super and also very open to new ideas. They readily admitted that they just don't see that many diabetics so welcomed the updated information I could supply them, and well they also couldn't argue with success..since one of my diabetics has been insulin free for over 2 years and the other is well on her way there.

But in defense of all vets, they are merely human and are rather like GPs in the human medical field, but whereas a human doctor only has to know about humans, vets have to know about everything from a tiny mouse to a huge steer and everything that can go wrong with all of them, it just isn't humanly possible to stay up to date on everything. So if you like your vet for the routine stuff and have a good working relationship with them, then try to work with them and possibly pass on some of the information you learn here.

Mel, Maxwell, Autumn & The Fur Gang
 
Just wanted you all to know that I called the vet this morning and he said it was ok to use Lantus if that is what we wanted to use. I fed Dot the meal of a can of fancy feast this morning. Will give the first dose of lantus tonight. The vet suggested 2 units twice daily which I thought might be a bit much considered we have greatly changed his diet. I may just start with 1 unit. And also, if he only wanted me to use 1.4 units of humulin N once daily, why would you use 2 units of lantus twice daily. I really am not understanding this concept. If Lantus is long acting, it looks like it would be the one used once daily????? All of you have been so nice!! I am hoping to find some info on checking his blood sugar myself.
 
Welcome extra sweet Dot and Dot's Mama! You found the right place!

If Dot were my cat, I'd start with 1 unit rather than the 2 units. Vets that use Humulin N don't tend to understand the difference between it and Lantus/Lev. Humulin N works for that one cycle, when it's done it's work, it's gone, nothing left to work. Lantus works differently - more like a 'timed release' pill would work. Lantus builds a 'depot' then draws off that as needed. Starting with 1 unit when changing food will give you a better idea of how much is truly needed. We don't consult the vet to change a dose, we use the knowledge we've learned from our own cat as well as other wonderful experienced people here just like humans. Unfortunately insulin isn't a chemical medicine that someone can say "take 2 and call me in the morning...", it's a daily walk - a marathon, not a sprint.

BIG HUGS! I know you're VERY confused right now, we've all been there but it WILL get better quickly! The 'sugar dance' isn't hard, just different!

We use a human meter from Walmart - the ReliOn Confirm - cheap strips and small blood sample plus I can go get more any time I need them quickly. Don't let the vet tell you human meters won't work! If they didn't, many hundreds of us would be doing things all wrong - our kitties say we aren't! Only difference is the actual reading of the numbers - human meter, normal is 50-120 while the vet 'cat' meters normal range is 80-150....not very difficult to add or subtract 30 points is it? Nah!

ANOTHER BIG HUG!
 
Lantus and Humulin N work differently...Lantus is what is known as a depot insulin it basically builds up little time released crystals (for lack of a better word) under the skin that slowly dissolve to help bring down the blood sugar. So with Lantus each shot builds on the next to give you coverage for a full 24 hour.

N is an in and out insulin, which is why it hits so hard in the beginning, but by the next shot time it is completely gone, which is one of the reasons we don't like it much for kitties. Although why your vet would do once a day on N and twice a day on Lantus is beyond me.

However, twice a day is how all insulin needs to be dosed in a feline. And I would agree as I'm sure most here would, that you are correct to reduce the dose with the diet change to 1u twice a day to begin with. It is much easier to up the dose later if it isn't enough than it is to get it back out of the cat once it has been shot if the dose is too high, especially while you are still learning to test.

Mel, Maxwell,Autumn & The Fur Gang
 
You can do this :thumbup

And just remember around here the only silly question is the one that goes unasked. :-D So as they come up and they will because this is a pretty steep learning curve and it is hard to absorb everything all at once just fire away. There is almost always someone around to answer any question and if we don't know I will bet money we know who does and can round them up.

Mel, Maxwell, Autumn & The Fur Gang
 
Great! And correct decision to start on 1 unit. Do you want to set up a spreadsheet now so we can watch and advise? See here on how http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=18207

Its a good idea to do a test before every shot as you dont want to shoot when Dot ( is that her name?) is too low. Plus because Lantus lasts for 12 hours, you should try and get a test at the 5-7 hour mark to see how low she is going. Its that low number we would base any further dose changes on. Spot checks would be good too. Plus dont feed for two hours before the shot so that your preshot test isnt inflated by food .

Last thing for now - if she is under 200 - dont shoot, dont feed and post here so we can advise. Until you have a lot of data to know she behaves you need to be careful and walked through it.

Let me know on the spreadsheet.
Wendy
 
Long story but Dot is a boy......but, yes, that's his name. He got his first shot tonight. It went well. I am going to attempt to check bg for the first time in the morning before his second shot. Should I do it before or after I feed him? Also, do the shots have to be exactly 12 hours apart? Is an hour early or late acceptable?
 
Cool but I would recommend a test in 2-3 hours after his shot to see how he is doing.. You don't want any nasty surprises.. There is another user on here recently that did his first test to discover the cat was way too low and nearly had a hypo(got rushed it vet, was fine and is now heading towards remission)

Recommended order is don't feed for two hours, test, give a treat, shoot, treat and feed.

Ideally the shots are 12hours apart give or take 15-30minutes for best effect. Most of us try and do it within those times and if we have to work late or something, and we know about it, we slowly move the shot time to accommodate.

Wendy
 
Ok, I will check before I go to bed. Hope I can get blood. This will be my first attempt. Thanks again!!
 
Also, what kind off treats are good and low carb? Tonight I just gave him some of the purina DM (got to use it somehow) as his treat. I know that wasn't the best choice.....
 
Good job!! How was it?

We don't have any other data so we don't know how he will behave.282 isn't too low and you gave him dry (bad naughty!!!) so that will probably keep him high now for an hour or so too. However If it was me, i would set the alarm for around 6 hours after the shot to check just to be 100% sure.

Low carb treats.. A lot of people use freeze dried chicken here but you can also see this http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=9172
 
Today was frustrating. for is fine, but I attempted 3 ear sticks that were unsuccessful. I did however check a urine and it showed he still had glucose in his urine n spite of his diet and insulin. And that is with only 3 cans of food total and no dry food. Will attempt bg level again tomorrow. He did however jump on the table trying to take some of my boy's food and he hasn't attempted jumping in a long time!
Haven't attempted spread sheet yet. I am a quite computer ignorant and have only looked at your link via iPad.
 
That's good news on the jumping, he has some energy at least!

Testing can be challenge at first but you get the hang of it. Let us know what the issue is and we will see if we csn help, remember to check the tips I gave you above.

Once we have you testing, we can work together on the spreadsheet,

Wendy
 
I was able to check sugar after 2 attempts today. Finally I got a 6 hour post shot bg and it was 323. He may need that 2nd unit..... My problem is getting a bead of blood big enough without getting strip error for not having a big enough drop. By the times get another strip in, it is clotted and won't bleed anymore and I have to restick. Poor kitty.....
 
Hello there
I think you really need to set up that SS. we need to see trends and general lantus behaviour before you change the dose.

What size lancets are you using? Are you using the device or freehand?

Wendy
 
Hi, you will find just the right technique testing technique that works for you. We all do it slightly differently. It will get easier! I promise.

Patience! ;-) :lol: You have only been using Lantus for 2 days. Lantus is different from fast acting insulins, you don't see full results immediately. As you were told it is a depot insulin. That means that part of each dose is held in reserve until the depot is fully filled, that usually takes 5 to 7 days. So be patient! ;-) It can also take a day or two for the carbs from dry food to work their way out of the system.

Use that time to get practice w/ testing, set up your SS and come over to the Lantus support page and READ. There is a ton of information about using Lantus in the Stickies (starred posts that are permanent) at the top of the page. You can post for advice there or come back here, but do go there to read all the great information that has been collected. It can be quite overwhelming at first. Just keep asking questions.

Are you fully transitioned over to wet food? If you are concerned about getting more weight on your cat you might consider a higher calorie food. They are more expensive, but in the end you have to feed fewer ounces. Consider something like Wellness grain free foods. You can get coupons to print out online and it is available in 12.5oz cans. That way the price comes down to about the same as feeding FF and it is 40 kcal/oz compared to 25 to 30 for FF. It's a much higher quality food too.

BTW when and if it does come time to increase a dose we only do it by .25 unit increments (or at the most .5 unit if the numbers are really high.) If you change the dose by too much you can go past the ideal dose and too much insulin can cause high BG reading too. Slow is best when making changes.

On the SS, …… do you have access to a regular computer? The SS is a pain to use on the iPad Google Docs mobil app. I'm a Machead and pretty computer literate and I hate using it. For just looking at the SS it is OK, but trying to enter data makes you jump through a lot of hoops! ohmygod_smile
 
I am using the lancet device and duh, I just thought I don't have it dialed up all the way. I had it on the middle setting. I do have access to a computer at work, but I don't work daily, so I have just been writing everything down. I have a desk top at home but it is a dinosaur and slow!!! But, I will see what she will do. Will work on that tomorrow. I am definitely going to wait a full week before making any changes. Don't know if I have told this or not, but I am a lab tech for a doctor's office and this is really kinda like working with people even though I thought it wasn't going to be. Just smaller patients and smaller doses. It does seem to be getting easier for us. As for the food, the FF is just as expensive for the amount he is eating than the diabetic food that I got for him at the vet... :?
 
Hi and Welcome! Well, you've found the best place to be!!! Sounds like your almost an "old pro" at the testing--good for you! Awesome. Most of us feed our cats wet foods that are 2-5%. I don't know your situation with your cat, but I feed my cat (and the other non-diabetics) wet food that I can afford that is 6% or less (fancy feast, friskies, 9-lives, purina one). When Gobbles was first diagnosed, I printed that entire food chart out. Then I wrote down all the ones I could buy/afford on a sheet of paper, which I keep in my purse for when I'm shopping.
 
NO, what the vet sells us is not good! It is the Purina DM. The fancy feast is 0.57 at wm but when he eats 3 cans a day, it adds up. I am going to look into some other options, but since it's been less than a week, I have not had a chance to shop and compare.
 
Just read on the forum that diabetes in cats can be caused from taking prednisone!!!! Dot was on prednisone in August for an inner ear infection that had him dizzy. (Diabetes could have been the reason as well but this is what the vet said at the time). This is when he started losing weight! Could short term prednisone have caused this? He took 5mg daily for 10 days.
 
Yes, pred can cause diabetes...Often though those cats are transient diabetics, after a short course of insulin and being changed to a low carb diet they go into remission very quickly.

Mel, Maxwell, Autumn & The Fur Gang
 
Dotsmommy said:
NO, what the vet sells us is not good! It is the Purina DM. The fancy feast is 0.57 at wm but when he eats 3 cans a day, it adds up. I am going to look into some other options, but since it's been less than a week, I have not had a chance to shop and compare.
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Check out the food list below and looks for anything less than 10% carbs. Some cats do better on even lower (for example, Mikey does best on under 5% carbs). There are a few other food lists available as well that might have some less expensive low carb options, but the catinfo.org is the most extensive and detailed. What I did was print out the list and highlight everything under 10% carbs that Mikey can eat (he's allergic to red meats and I restrict him to seafood only once a week) and I took that shopping with me.

Wendy&Tiggy said:
Oh and in terms of food, there is a calculation for food

Required calories per day = [13.6 X ideal weight in lbs] + 70

And you can get the calories in fancy feast from here http://www.catinfo.org/docs/Food Chart Public 9-22-12.pdf

However while he isnt regulated you should feed and weigh him and adjust accordingly. He may need a lot more until he is regulated.
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Friskies is one of the cheapest, as well as Special Kitty (a Walmart brand, I believe) and here's a list for 9 Lives. IIRC, Merrick and FF are comparable price-wise and there are often deals or discounts for buying in bulk.
 
It is more important to think in terms of the number of calories you are feeding than in terms of volume. As I said earlier, you can get Wellness grain free food in 12.5 ounce cans. I pay $2.49 a can, that's 19.9¢ per ounce. FF at 57¢ a can is 19¢ an ounce, pretty close in price. BUT a 3oz can of FF will be about 90kcal, 3oz of Wellness is 120kcal, a third more! So for approximately the same price you are getting 1/3 more calories into him! And it is better quality food, no byproducts or grains. Depending on activity level most cats need 20 to 30 kcal per pound of body weight per day (that more complicated formula is for a weight loss diet). If he needs to gain weight, I'd go to the higher end. Regaining weight takes time, my Tess took months to get back to where I think she looks good, a whopping 8.75 pounds!

All that said, cats that have unregulated FD can eat tons of food, but because insulin is needed to get the energy from that food into the cells they aren't getting the nutrition they need from all that food. They can be eating like little piggies and their cells are still starving.
 
Not great. I think his little ears are sore from all of the unsuccessful sticks. He's fighting me a little but we are doing well. We go to vet this afternoon for one week recheck after starting insulin. Shots are a piece of cake now!!
 
Dotsmommy said:
NO, what the vet sells us is not good! It is the Purina DM. The fancy feast is 0.57 at wm but when he eats 3 cans a day, it adds up. I am going to look into some other options, but since it's been less than a week, I have not had a chance to shop and compare.
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If you go to WM- for me, when Sneakers was up to 20oz/day and ate everything on her plate it helped to get cheaper food at the start. Special Kitty- 13oz cans are $.70 each- Tuna, Super Supper, and Mixed Grill are all under 8%. You can buy this in a box of 12 for less. Chunky Chicken and Tuna (4 5.5oz cans pack/4) is $1.47.

If you only have Dot to feed and he likes variety also purchase 4-5 ice cube trays in a different color than you have and use for ice cubes. Once I pop the top and give her the first bite I dish out the rest- a spoonful (1- to 1 1/2 teaspoons is 1/2 ounce or a little more) in each well, add water, mush it in together, and freeze. Once frozen you put it in a ziplock baggie and defrost 2 at a time a minute in the microwave and it takes it from solid state to mouse warm. Three baggies and I alternate what food I give as she is now PICKY. Since she is eating only 6oz/day now I am transitioning her to more costly food since she isn't just eating because she is starving.

Hope it helps.
Heather
 
At the vet yesterday his bg was over 600. He told us to give 2 units once daily. I went ahead and gave him 2 units last night, one unit this morning and 2 units tonight. At 12:00 noon he was 215!! Yay. But before I gave him his shot tonight he was back up to 495.
He is now fighting us over the ear sticks. At first he was tolerating it well but now we have to wrap him in a towel and he shakes his head and I lose the drop!! So frustrating!! Now wondering what insulin dosage to go with?!?
 
Make sure you always give him a treat afterward..and that you aren't only approaching him when you want to test.

Sounds like the insulin is working to bring him down but when it wears off after 12 hours, he goes back up. Hold the dose for a few days to let it settle and keep measuring. You are still filling up the depot (see prior posts). And please set up your spreadsheet and come over to the lantus tight regulation board so the experienced members can help you better..
 
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