How bad is the CKD?

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Bandit's Mom

Bandit's Mom

Member Since 2019
Marje and Gracie said:
The tests I look at for CKD are: BUN, creatinine, SDMA if available, phosphorus, calcium, potassium, hematocrit, USG, and protein in urine.
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Previous thread

@Marje and Gracie, @Wendy&Neko I got the vet to draw blood for a complete renal profile on Budge during her dental yesterday. Budge was without food and water for 12 hours - not sure if that affects test results.

BUN - 30
Creatinine - 2.21
Phosphorous - 4.8
Calcium - 10.1
Potassium - 3.9
Sodium - 153
Chloride - 118

HCT - 49.6% (test done on day of FLUTD episode)

USG - 1.015
Protein - F. Trace
(Urine test was done on a morning sample but during one of her episodes of FLUTD - not sure if that affects the values)


DIET CHANGE
I need to take stock of how to alter Budge's diet. The vet was again harping on a urinary diet - she's strongly against raw (homemade or commercial) and even canned! When I told her that Budge doesn't drink water her solution was to get a water fountain :banghead:. So I'm not going to waste my time having a diet conversation with her! My options are:

(a) I switch her to Young Again (which is 0.5% phosphorous) and she will be happy to have it but I will have to figure out how to get water into her - is chicken stock low in phosphorous? Budge had a urethral blockage in March and now has FLUTD! So hydration is as critical as phosphorous for her.

(b) Continue with the only LC canned option I have i.e. Whiskas - which is not a great food/brand and has 1.42% phosphorous (0.22% on as fed basis).

(c) See if she will eat raw - there is a commercial raw food company here (https://barfindia.com/barf-for-cats/) but Marje tells me that not all meat (for e.g. rabbit) is low phosphorous?


Will get Bandit's Renal Profile mid next week when her dental is scheduled. Apologize for doing this piecemeal but would be great if you could take a look and put me out of my misery! :nailbiting:
 

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One raw food option (https://www.kongskitchen.co.in/product/feline-magic/):

Ingredients: Chicken drumsticks with bone, Rabbit backs, whole quail with organs, chicken hearts, and KKs secret blend of select herbs.

Nutritional Info:
  • Energy – 388kcal per 100 gms (think there's something wrong with this!)
  • Carbohydrates - 0.6%
  • Total Fat – 9%
  • Protein – 13%
  • Crude fiber – 1.5%
How To Use: Thaw And Serve
 
Any raw diet with bones in it is going to be higher in phosphorus. Generally the poultry and rabbit products will include bones (because they are small), but the larger animal products won't. Here there are some raw products that substitute egg shell calcium for bones - those are low P. The premixes I used were lower P. (TC Feline and FoodFurLIfe).

The kcal seems high in the commercial raw you linked. Raw is denser in nutrients than canned, so you need to feed less volume. Neko used to get about 125 grams per day, and depending on the meat product that varied from 180 to 250 kcal. It was around that range for different raw vendors.
Bandit's Mom said:
is chicken stock low in phosphorous?
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Depends how it's made. Traditional stock is made with bones and cooked a long time. That makes it high in phosphorus. I used to occasionally make some just by boiling meat (also organs) alone to make more of a broth than a stock.

Some cats will drink from a water fountain and not from a dish. Not mine though. :banghead: One completely ignored it, Neko at least got close for a look, then ignored it.:rolleyes:

As for the test results, crazy to go without water for that long! Was the urinalysis by cystocentesis (needle into bladder) or free catch? A dehydrated cat can have higher kidney values. From Tanya's page on figuring out how bad it is. If you look at the IRIS table, looks like stage 2. Too bad the vet only said "trace" for the urine protein, and not a number. That is something to keep an eye on if you see it again.

Here is the link to Tanya's page on phosphorus. And you might wish to read the page on goals for phosphorus.
 
Wendy&Neko said:
Raw is denser in nutrients than canned, so you need to feed less volume. Neko used to get about 125 grams per day, and depending on the meat product that varied from 180 to 250 kcal. It was around that range for different raw vendors.
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How did Neko get his daily requirement of water/fluids if he ate only 125 gms of raw? The commercial food company I linked says to feed 2-3% of the cat's body weight - which in Budge's case is 120gms. She needs at least 200-300 mls of water per day.

Wendy&Neko said:
Depends how it's made. Traditional stock is made with bones and cooked a long time. That makes it high in phosphorus. I used to occasionally make some just by boiling meat (also organs) alone to make more of a broth than a stock.
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Sorry! My vegetarian ignorance is showing! Didn't know there was a difference between stock and broth! :facepalm: How long do I boil the meat/chicken? And would this be chicken with bones or boneless chicken? For low phos?

Wendy&Neko said:
As for the test results, crazy to go without water for that long!
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This was the night before the dental and the vet said no food for 12 hours before. Budge doesn't drink water, so she didn't have any after her meal the previous night. Even though I offered it to her the next morning! :rolleyes:

Wendy&Neko said:
Was the urinalysis by cystocentesis (needle into bladder) or free catch? Too bad the vet only said "trace" for the urine protein, and not a number. That is something to keep an eye on if you see it again.
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It was free catch and the test was done at a human lab! Vets here say it is okay to get urine and stool tests done at human labs!

Wendy&Neko said:
Here is the link to Tanya's page on phosphorus. And you might wish to read the page on goals for phosphorus.
Click to expand...
Thanks :) I already looked even before I got the phos levels. She says between and 4 and 4.5 and Budge's are a little higher at 4.80. I guess I have to give her low phos foods to get it down, but that means dry. And then I am dealing with a blockage or FUTD. I feel like I have teenage children! :rolleyes:
 
Bandit's Mom said:
Previous thread

@Marje and Gracie, @Wendy&Neko I got the vet to draw blood for a complete renal profile on Budge during her dental yesterday. Budge was without food and water for 12 hours - not sure if that affects test results.

BUN - 30
Creatinine - 2.21
Phosphorous - 4.8
Calcium - 10.1
Potassium - 3.9
Sodium - 153
Chloride - 118

HCT - 49.6% (test done on day of FLUTD episode)

USG - 1.015
Protein - F. Trace
(Urine test was done on a morning sample but during one of her episodes of FLUTD - not sure if that affects the values)


DIET CHANGE
I need to take stock of how to alter Budge's diet. The vet was again harping on a urinary diet - she's strongly against raw (homemade or commercial) and even canned! When I told her that Budge doesn't drink water her solution was to get a water fountain :banghead:. So I'm not going to waste my time having a diet conversation with her! My options are:

(a) I switch her to Young Again (which is 0.5% phosphorous) and she will be happy to have it but I will have to figure out how to get water into her - is chicken stock low in phosphorous? Budge had a urethral blockage in March and now has FLUTD! So hydration is as critical as phosphorous for her.

(b) Continue with the only LC canned option I have i.e. Whiskas - which is not a great food/brand and has 1.42% phosphorous (0.22% on as fed basis).

(c) See if she will eat raw - there is a commercial raw food company here (https://barfindia.com/barf-for-cats/) but Marje tells me that not all meat (for e.g. rabbit) is low phosphorous?


Will get Bandit's Renal Profile mid next week when her dental is scheduled. Apologize for doing this piecemeal but would be great if you could take a look and put me out of my misery! :nailbiting:
Click to expand...
Those are actually pretty good labs!! Yes, early CKD but now is when you focus on early management and the number one thing is working to keep that P where it is or even a little lower.

I didn’t do the calculations on the raw food you linked because I looked at the website and it has a lot of ground bone. Normally, that’s a good thing but ground bone means it’s very likely high in P. It’s usually better for CKD cats to have eggshell calcium instead of ground bone.

It does make me a little nervous to suggest feeding Budge a dry diet with her urinary issues. What about not worrying about the food being LC since Budge is not diabetic? Why not try to find a canned food that is lower in P even if the carbs are higher and just make sure Bandit doesn’t eat it?
 
Marje and Gracie said:
Those are actually pretty good labs!! Yes, early CKD but now is when you focus on early management and the number one thing is working to keep that P where it is or even a little lower. What about not worrying about the food being LC since Budge is not diabetic? Why not try to find a canned food that is lower in P even if the carbs are higher and just make sure Bandit doesn’t eat it?
Click to expand...

Thanks Marje. Glad to hear the labs are okay. So focus on low phos food. 0.5% or less?

When you say higher carbs, what %? Don't I need to worry about her becoming diabetic if I feed higher carbs? She would be an absolute nightmare to test and give insulin to if she were to become diabetic. Not that giving sub-cut fluids would be any easier. It is a battle even pilling her! :confused:
 
Bandit's Mom said:
Thanks Marje. Glad to hear the labs are okay. So focus on low phos food. 0.5% or less?

When you say higher carbs, what %? Don't I need to worry about her becoming diabetic if I feed higher carbs? She would be an absolute nightmare to test and give insulin to if she were to become diabetic. Not that giving sub-cut fluids would be any easier. It is a battle even pilling her! :confused:
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You aren’t going to find any commercial canned foods that are as low as 0.5% P on a DMB.

If she is not overweight and is not on steroids, allowing her to have a canned food that is in the MC range (10-12% calories from carbs) is not likely to make her diabetic although there are never guarantees. I’ve seen cats that have been fed LC raw diets more of their lives become diabetic. There is a lot we don’t know about what causes it. But you have to pick your battle here and it just seems to me if she has no predisposition towards FD, increasing the % calories from carbs in exchange for a lower P food is important to be considered. If you look at the %calories from carbs of the renal diet your vet wants to put them on, they are really high.
 
Marje and Gracie said:
You aren’t going to find any commercial canned foods that are as low as 0.5% P on a DMB.
Click to expand...
So I should work with a ceiling of 1%?

Marje and Gracie said:
If she is not overweight
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She is 6 kilos (13 lbs) - looks overweight because she has loose skin in her underbelly - what Dr. Lisa refers to as "doolap". This despite the fact that she doesn't eat more than 170-180 cals/ day and hasn't for many many years! My great vet's recommendation for Budge's arthritis is that she should lose 1.5 kgs (3.3 lbs)! :rolleyes:

Marje and Gracie said:
If you look at the %calories from carbs of the renal diet your vet wants to put them on, they are really high.
Click to expand...
Yes. That is the reason I was against renal diets. That and the fact that I really can't afford the renal canned food that is available here!
 
Bandit's Mom said:
How long do I boil the meat/chicken? And would this be chicken with bones or boneless chicken? For low phos?
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Definitely boneless. I just added meat to water and simmered on low boil for a couple hours, or until the liquid had golden colour to it. Sorry about the smell, might be tough for you. :bighug:

You might want to check out this on line feeding guide for raw from one of the manufacturers I used. I still found them a bit more generous than Neko needed. Of course the activity level of your cat does matter and she wasn't a super active cat at that point. What matters is kcal per day needed, not mg.
 
Wendy&Neko said:
Definitely boneless. I just added meat to water and simmered on low boil for a couple hours, or until the liquid had golden colour to it. Sorry about the smell, might be tough for you. :bighug:

You might want to check out this on line feeding guide for raw from one of the manufacturers I used. I still found them a bit more generous than Neko needed. Of course the activity level of your cat does matter and she wasn't a super active cat at that point. What matters is kcal per day needed, not mg.
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Thanks Wendy. Will try making the broth. The smell will be tough - but there is nothing I wouldn't do for these two brats! :)

Just to be clear - I should avoid all bones in raw food? I think all the options on this commercial raw food site have bones. For e.g. one says "Cage-free whole Turkey with bone, free-range buffalo, Fresh Buffalo liver, Fresh Turkey gizzard, with Quail and Chicken Hearts."

And feeding raw is enough to meet daily fluid requirements? Just that 120 or 150 gms or how much ever?
 
When I did the analysis on raw products with bone, they were a lot higher phosphorus that ones without.

Raw has more fluid generally than canned. Plus you can add water to it easily and mix it in. My non diabetic cat Theo had idiopathic cystitis, and the vet food he was on was way too high carb, plus Neko was a food thief. So his vet suggested raw as an alternative that both could eat. Once I switched him to raw with extra water, he never had another cystitis episode. He did occasionally drink additional water, but he was a good drinker.

The boiled chicken can afterwards be cut in pieces and given as treats to the kitties.
 
Wendy&Neko said:
When I did the analysis on raw products with bone, they were a lot higher phosphorus that ones without.

Raw has more fluid generally than canned. Plus you can add water to it easily and mix it in. My non diabetic cat Theo had idiopathic cystitis, and the vet food he was on was way too high carb, plus Neko was a food thief. So his vet suggested raw as an alternative that both could eat. Once I switched him to raw with extra water, he never had another cystitis episode. He did occasionally drink additional water, but he was a good drinker.

The boiled chicken can afterwards be cut in pieces and given as treats to the kitties.
Click to expand...

Sorry Wendy! One last question! You can answer this at leisure.

I presume ground bone is added as a source of calcium? So I would need to look for a raw option that has eggshell calcium in it? Or the food company would take care of the calcium requirements even in boneless raw food?

Will try the chicken broth tomorrow itself. I really doubt these two are going to look at either the broth or the chicken pieces favourably! :rolleyes:
Our job is to provide them with the options and theirs to turn their noses up at them! :D
 
Wendy&Neko said:
When I did the analysis on raw products with bone, they were a lot higher phosphorus that ones without.

Raw has more fluid generally than canned. Plus you can add water to it easily and mix it in. My non diabetic cat Theo had idiopathic cystitis, and the vet food he was on was way too high carb, plus Neko was a food thief. So his vet suggested raw as an alternative that both could eat. Once I switched him to raw with extra water, he never had another cystitis episode. He did occasionally drink additional water, but he was a good drinker.

The boiled chicken can afterwards be cut in pieces and given as treats to the kitties.
Click to expand...
Don't mean to hyjack your thread Bhooma just wanted to say hello to @Wendy&Neko hi Wendy.
Bhooma I hope you can find foods for both of them that are suitable :bighug:
 
Hi Bhooma,

If you want to try a 'light broth' first, I used to gently poach a chicken breast in water for Saoirse. The poaching liquid was flavoured enough to tempt her to drink more.

Method:

* Bring c. 1 pt water to boil.
* Add 1-2 roughly diced chicken breasts to the water and turn heat down low.
* Cover and cook for about 5 minutes at a very low simmer.
* Turn off the heat and leave the meat in the poaching liquid until it cools.

As Wendy suggests above, you can then chop up the cooked chicken into small treat-sized pieces (put some in the fridge, some in the freezer for later) and use the broth to boost fluid consumption. Might be worth giving it a try to see whether it might be flavoured enough for your kitty while sparing you a longer time with the cooking smells.


Mogs
.
 
Bandit's Mom said:
Previous thread

@Marje and Gracie, @Wendy&Neko I got the vet to draw blood for a complete renal profile on Budge during her dental yesterday. Budge was without food and water for 12 hours - not sure if that affects test results.

BUN - 30
Creatinine - 2.21
Phosphorous - 4.8
Calcium - 10.1
Potassium - 3.9
Sodium - 153
Chloride - 118

HCT - 49.6% (test done on day of FLUTD episode)

USG - 1.015
Protein - F. Trace
(Urine test was done on a morning sample but during one of her episodes of FLUTD - not sure if that affects the values)


DIET CHANGE
I need to take stock of how to alter Budge's diet. The vet was again harping on a urinary diet - she's strongly against raw (homemade or commercial) and even canned! When I told her that Budge doesn't drink water her solution was to get a water fountain :banghead:. So I'm not going to waste my time having a diet conversation with her! My options are:

(a) I switch her to Young Again (which is 0.5% phosphorous) and she will be happy to have it but I will have to figure out how to get water into her - is chicken stock low in phosphorous? Budge had a urethral blockage in March and now has FLUTD! So hydration is as critical as phosphorous for her.

(b) Continue with the only LC canned option I have i.e. Whiskas - which is not a great food/brand and has 1.42% phosphorous (0.22% on as fed basis).

(c) See if she will eat raw - there is a commercial raw food company here (https://barfindia.com/barf-for-cats/) but Marje tells me that not all meat (for e.g. rabbit) is low phosphorous?


Will get Bandit's Renal Profile mid next week when her dental is scheduled. Apologize for doing this piecemeal but would be great if you could take a look and put me out of my misery! :nailbiting:
Click to expand...

I have a CKD cat called FaFa too. I am sure you can take care of Bandit. One thing I would suggest is try both a water fountain and a big ceramic dish to contain drinking water.

I used a small bowl for over 10 years, and four of my cats rarely drink the water. Now I switched to a big dish, and suddenly all of them drink water, which is essential for cats health especially CKD cats.
 
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