Hobbes diagnosed with diabetes 3 days back

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Tragicomic

Member Since 2016
Hello everyone,

(Long post alert.)
I just posted an introduction in a separate thread. I have some questions.

Background. My cat Hobbes is 12 years old. My husband and I adopted him from a shelter here in India when he was about 6 weeks old and he is a beautiful, darling, lovable, black-nosed purring machine. For ten years, he was generally healthy. Then last year in February, he got constipated and was diagnosed with intestinal motility issues, which we are managing by using pumpkin puree and Miralax, as well as medication (Mosapride, an analogue of Cisapride). Since he was 1 year old, he has had tiny tumors on his skin which five vets we showed him to said should be left alone. Last year, two of the tumors started acting up, and the vet surgically removed six of his nine tumors. Four more have cropped up this year.

Recent developments. One of his mast cell tumors was inflamed early last month, and the vet prescribed 0.3 ml of Depo Medrol injections every 3 weeks. After his third steroid shot, he started losing weight and going downhill fast. He weighed 7.2 kgs (15.8 pounds), which is his ideal weight, on September 30, and 6.6 kgs (14.5 pounds) on October 26. On October 27, he had blood tests, urinalysis, x-rays, and ultrasound done. His blood values are normal except that his blood sugar level came back as 280, after 8 hours of fasting (he had to be sedated for the tests). His urine showed sugar and ketones (3+). The vet asked us to start him on 3 units of Lantus insulin s.i.d. using a Solostar pen and monitor his blood sugar at home using a glucometer.

Current situation. I brought him home and did some reading. Per my understanding, 3 units of Lantus would have been too much to start him off on, so I contacted the vet, and we decided on 2 units of insulin to start off and 1 unit 12 hours later. (Please see table below). (Separately, the vet has a history of overdosing both cats. Unfortunately, she is the best vet in our city, and we have no option of going elsewhere. As far as diagnosis and surgery go, she has always been brilliant. It is only in dosage that we have to adjust what she prescribes according to each of our cats' needs.)

Here is what his dosage and blood glucose values have been:
10/28: Diabetes diagnosed with a blood glucose reading of 280 at the vet's clinic. Had to be sedated for tests. Started eating only on 10/29 morning since he took so long to come out of sedation.
10/29: 2 units of Lantus at 3 PM after a meal of 25 grams wet food
10/30: 1 unit of Lantus at 4:30 AM after a meal of 25 grams wet food
10/30: Blood glucose was 84 per the human glucometer we used at 4:55 AM, half an hour after a meal of 25 grams wet food
10/30: 1 unit of Lantus at 5:40 PM after a meal of 24 grams wet food (unable to test blood glucose)
10/31: Blood glucose was 63 at 4:40 AM two hours after a meal of 25 grams wet food, so we skipped the Lantus shot we had planned to give every 12 hours.
10/31: Tried to check blood sugar again at 10:40 AM but couldn't get enough blood. Visual confirmation on the strip shows blood glucose between 30 and 80.

The vet says to keep him on 1 unit of Lantus once a day for now, so we are supposed to give him 1 unit at 5:40 PM today (India time).

Questions. The vet has asked me to give 1 unit of insulin every 24 hours for now. What do you think looking at the values above? I will try to get his blood glucose again in 6 hours. I am afraid if I cannot get the reading and still give him a unit of Lantus, I risk hypoglycemia. What do you think his dosage should be until we are able to check his blood glucose consistently? As mentioned above, he currently weighs 6.6 kgs (14.5 pounds) and is underweight. His ideal weight according to body shape is 7.2 kgs (16.6 pounds). I have dry food, tuna water, and honey on hand in case of hypoglycemia. We are taking turns to monitor him 24/7 these first few days/weeks until we are more confident of his insulin requirements and blood glucose patterns.

Here is some additional information.
Challenges/goals. (1) I am not very good at pricking him and don't get enough blood despite heating the ear. My husband holds him and I talk to Hobbes to calm him while pricking his ear, but he still cries. It will take a few days for all of us to get better at this, and I hope to be able test 4-5 times a day then to figure out his insulin needs better. I have only been able to test twice until now. (2) He doesn't eat more than 25 grams of wet food over a 3 hour period and we will have to give him at least 12 grams of dry food daily to meet his calorie requirement. I will track his carb intake and try to keep it below 10% (ideally 6%) every day. (3) We plan to start collecting a urine sample once every few days to check for sugar and ketones. This will take some learning as well for him and me. (4) We are looking for a U-100 syringe and will print out a scale so we can start adjusting his dosage in units of 0.25/0.5. We are only able to find U-40 syringes, but we will figure something out. But until then, we will only be able to dose him in units of 1 directly from the Lantus Solostar pen. (5) No more steroid shots for him! We will try to use antihistamines alone to tackle his mast cell tumors but this can be difficult since he does not tolerate Benadryl, cetirizine (Zyrtec) or cyproheptadine.

Food. Hobbes is fed every 3-4 hours. He used to have 2 wet food meals and 4-5 small dry food meals through the day. But since the diabetes diagnosis, we have moved him to 6 wet food meals through the day and 2 dry food meals just to meet his calorie requirements, which we are unable to do only on wet food. We will try to keep his carb percentage under 6% and track his food and carb intake. He has a number of food allergies for which we had an IgE test done in January. He is allergic to chicken, lamb, carrots, yeast, potatoes, per the blood test. He has been much less itchy since we took him off these foods. We have to order all his food from Amazon UK and Amazon US since nothing available in India suits him. This can be a challenge because of delivery costs/issues sometimes.

Other medication. Hobbes is on 2 mg Mosapride b.i.d. for his intestinal motility, 2.5mg Atarax (hydroxyzine) s.i.d. for his mast cell tumors, and 1/6 Ranitidine b.i.d. because of his mast cell tumors. He is also on 1/4 tsp Miralax for his motility issues. This I'm told should not affect his blood sugar, since the Miralax does not get absorbed. He is very good at taking his pills and comes himself when called and sits on the couch/bed to take them. He gets a B-12 shot every 2 weeks.

Sorry about the long post but I wanted to give all the information. Thanks for your time and any advice you can give two worried cat parents.

Cheers,
Neha
 
Welcome. I'm not able to give you much advise about dosing with Lantus. It is usually given every 12 hours. You should be able to get U-100 syringes as that's what humans use for their diabetes. Don't ask for pet syringes. Take your time to read the different forums here, there is lots to learn.
 
Please read the Stickys at the top of the Lantus and Levemir forum. Their is a sweet spot in the ears that don't hurt when you poke. Keep trying are you using 28 gauge Lance's? If you are testing with a pet meter you need to keep kitty above 68 and on a human meter 50. You need to give a teaspoon or two of medium carb food with a small amount of karo syrup or honey or pancake syrup and test 15 to 20 minutes. If rising feed mire food and check in 15 to 20 minutes till you have 3 rising tests. Then no food and test in 30 minutes.
I'm hoping more experienced members will be able to give you advice.
 
Also please start a Spread sheet . If you have trouble with the spread sheet @Marje and Gracie would be able to help you. Also will you be following slgs or tr?
With you feeding dry which most is way too high in carbs it is best to feed all wet canned or raw but please be careful when tapering off dry as the glousce numbers will be lower.
 
@donnalea: Thanks for replying. Yes, I have been asking for human U-100 syringes. We'll widen our search. If some members from India could tell me what they use for their cats, that would be very helpful, since it's possible that availability of medical paraphernalia differs from one part of the world to another.

@DebG: Thanks for replying. Hobbes gets 8 meals a day, 6 wet and only 2 dry. The dry are only given to meet his daily calorie requirement, since he doesn't eat more than 25 grams wet over 3 hours. With all wet, and the calorie content of wet food being 0.7 calories per gram on average, he would only get 140 calories a day. As mentioned in my original post, I am tracking his carbohydrate intake and aim to keep it under 10%, ideally 6%.

Yes, I'm only pricking the sweet spot between the vein and the tip of the ear. I have read the Stickys. Yes, I'm using 28 gauges lancets.

Can someone please read the table above and let me know what you think of my vet's recommendation to give 1 unit a day of Lantus until we can test Hobbes's blood glucose more regularly?

Thanks.
 
Welcome and congratulations on starting hone testing right away!!!! :bighug: :bighug:

There is a good chance that the depo medrol shot may have contributed to the diabetes. I don't know whether Hobbes will be continuing to get steroids for his tumours. If there are to be no more steroids used it is possible that as they clear his system, the glucose numbers may drop more. The effects of a depo medrol shot can take about 1 month to fully clear the system.

At this point what you should be giving for a shot is hard to say, without more data. The usual starting dose of Lantus is 1 unit every 12 hours, but that also will depend on what readings you get at preshot and how low a dose takes him at nadir (the lowest point) which with Lantus is usually around +5-+7 hours after the shot, although that can vary with each kitty.

It would be good if you could remove the dry altogether from Hobbs diet, but I would wait until you have more data, since removing dry food and feeding a low carb wet diet can also cause glucose numbers to drop. The Tight Regulation protocol is only used if there is no dry food being fed, as dry food is higher in carbs and it is very hard to judge how much a kittty needs or how far the numbers can drop with high carb food on board. Since TR is an aggressive approach you don't want any other variable in the mix.

Setting up a spreadsheeet will be most helpful for you and anyone who is giving advice as the patterns from prehot and during the cycle (time between shots) give a good picture on whether a dose is good, too low or too high. Here are the instructions for setting up a spreadsheet:

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/fdmb-spreadsheet-instructions.130337/

If you need help just ask and @Marje and Gracie can get you set up very quickly.

I would suggest that you do your preshot test..with at least 2 hours after having last eaten, and post your numbers on a new thread (post) before shooting, with a title like "Lantus need dosing advice" you could include the preshot number in the title as well. |

When first starting on Lantus it is suggested not to shoot under 150 until you have more data on how your kitty is responding. This is also going to depend on how long you are able to monitor your kitty during a cycle and to make sure you have adequate testing supplies and a good hypo kit ready...if ever needed.

:bighug: :bighug:
 
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@Tuxedo Mom: Thank you so much for your informative reply. We were able to check his blood glucose at 3:40 PM and it was 70 two hours after a meal of wet food. I spoke to the vet and she said to hold off on the insulin shot. We will check his blood glucose every 24 hours just to make sure he's doing fine. It is possible that the Depo Medrol is clearing his system and he may have a remission (at least that's what we hope).
 
@Tuxedo Mom: Thank you so much for your informative reply. We were able to check his blood glucose at 3:40 PM and it was 70 two hours after a meal of wet food. I spoke to the vet and she said to hold off on the insulin shot. We will check his blood glucose every 24 hours just to make sure he's doing fine. It is possible that the Depo Medrol is clearing his system and he may have a remission (at least that's what we hope).


WOW 70 2 hours after eating is quite low. Usually there would still be a food influenced higher number at that point. I am SO glad you are home-testing...you could have just saved your Hobbes from a hypo episode!!
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Good call on holding off on the insulin shots and getting more data on what Hobbes numbers are doing. The depo medrol could indeed be a big factor in the glucose numbers. While you are not giving insulin this would be the perfect time to remove the dry food altogether from his diet. Dry food is higher in carbs which can also be some of the cause of higher glucose and if you are not giving insulin it is the perfect time to banish it forever ;)

Good luck with your monitoring and fingers crossed that Hobbes can get back into normal numbers very quickly. :bighug:

ETA Even if you aren't giving insulin at this point setting up your spreadsheet and recording your tests will give a great visual aide for your testing data.
 
Wowsers only three days post diagnosis and look how far you've come - I am so impressed. At that point of Vyktors diagnosis I think I was still just a blithering mess!

With numbers as low as you've been getting so soon into the treatment and not being able to monitor too closely yet I think skipping is a good plan.

Hopefully Hobbes has already gone into remission with the steroids stopped but if he does need more insulin, once you have your spreadsheet set up the lantus/levemir forum is the best place to post for advice on lantus dosing. You are right to be concerned about your vet's thoughts on dosing but with any luck we won't need to bother telling you why - Go Hobbes, keep those normal numbers coming :cat:
 
B/D makes insulin syringes that a lot of people in Europe use....I can't think of anyone right now that's living in India

They're called BD MicroFine 0.3ml Insulin Syringes U100 Demi
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A human pharmacy should be able to order them if they don't carry them

Sorry, I forgot to mention I'll be following TR and will start a spreadsheet. Thanks.

As long as there is dry food in the picture, we don't recommend trying TR.....the "rules" specifically say the cat must be on a canned or raw food diet only. TR is already a very aggressive treatment protocol so we tend to follow it exactly. With dry food in the picture, you'd want to go with the Start Low, Go Slow method until you can get the dry out of his diet. The only low carb dry foods are available only in the US and even people feeding one of those 2 brands are still supposed to be doing SLGS. I realize you're dealing with a lot of challenges being in India, but getting rid of the dry is one of the best things you can do for Hobbes.....most of them are 25% carbs or higher

Once the diabetes is under better control, Hobbes should gain back some of the weight he's lost

 
If you would like me to do a spreadsheet for Hobbes, please send me a private message by clicking on “Marje and Gracie” to the left under Gracie’s photo and then “Start a Conversation”. It will only take me a minute or so to do the SS and I’m happy to help.

Welcome to FDMB.
 
@Marje and Gracie: Thanks for offering to help set up a spreadsheet for Hobbes. I sent you a private message just now.

Thank you so much, @Tuxedo Mom, @Vyktors Mum, and @Chris & China, for all the encouragement, support, and advice. We tested his blood sugar today two hours after a meal, and it was 77. He has been off insulin for two days now, and his last dose was 1 unit. He only received three doses in all. We are hopeful that the diabetes was brought on by Depo Medrol and now that the steroid is clearing from his system, he is going back to normal. We will continue testing his blood sugar for two weeks. We will also check for sugar in his urine.

I am very relieved too that we started testing his blood glucose at home as I believe he would have had a hypoglycemic episode based on the vet's dosage instructions of starting off with 3 units of Lantus. The links on this website helped me a lot, as I learned to massage his ear first and then heat it with one of those little heating pads that came in his pillow. This finally got the blood flowing and I now get a nice big blood drop every time. More than anything, I'm so thankful to Hobbes for taking his treats and forgiving us immediately each time we prick him. He's a big, strong cat and could make it difficult for us if he liked, but even though he grumbles a bit, he seems to know we are doing it for him.

I do have one question for everyone here: With wet food only, how do you make sure to meet your cat's calorie requirement, especially for large cats? Hobbes's ideal weight is about 7.2 kgs or 15.8 pounds based on his body shape, and even on high-quality wet food only, he starts to go down quickly. Wet food is on average 0.7 calories per gram and we cannot get more than 140 calories per day into him on a wet-only diet, while his calorie requirement is actually about 180-200 per day now that he's 12 years old. I cannot give high calorie treats since they all contain chicken or some form of poultry and he's allergic to chicken and duck. The only treats he eats are low-calorie freeze-dried Alaskan salmon.
 
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How wonderful that Hobbs is responding so well even without insulin and thank GOODNESS you are home testing. What the vet suggested for dosing would definitely have caused a hypo. It really looks like the depo medrol played a big part in the high glucose levels. With removing that and a change to wet low carb Hobbs is certainly on the right path.

Many people on here use foods such as the Fancy Feast classic pate or Friskies pates (NOT the one with the green lid..it is high in carbs) . Friskies has about 120-150 calories in a tin (on average). Would Hobbs be able to eat 1 1/2-2 tins a day spread out over the day? This should be enough to meet his calorie requirements.
 
@Tuxedo Mom: Thanks for the suggestion. Unfortunately, I am not able to feed Friskies or Fancy Feast Classic because they all contain poultry protein or chicken derivatives, which Hobbes is allergic to. Food allergies are dangerous to him because he has mast cell tumors and these become itchy and inflamed if he has an allergic reaction. This in turn will need treatment through steroids which I'm hoping to avoid going forward at all costs. This is why I'm left with foods like Encore and Applaws (from Amazon UK) and Soulistic tuna/salmon and Purely Fancy Feast tuna flavors (from Amazon US) for him. All of these are less that 0.8 calories per gram and do not contain poultry derivatives. (The only wet foods in India are Whiskas and Royal Canin which are both low quality and contain ingredients like "animal and animal derivatives" and "various sugars," so we definitely don't want to feed these to our cats.)

I am afraid it looks like he will need some hypoallergenic dry food in his diet to make up his calories each day.
 
@Tuxedo Mom: Thanks for the suggestion. Unfortunately, I am not able to feed Friskies or Fancy Feast Classic because they all contain poultry protein or chicken derivatives, which Hobbes is allergic to. Food allergies are dangerous to him because he has mast cell tumors and these become itchy and inflamed if he has an allergic reaction. This in turn will need treatment through steroids which I'm hoping to avoid going forward at all costs. This is why I'm left with foods like Encore and Applaws (from Amazon UK) and Soulistic tuna/salmon and Purely Fancy Feast tuna flavors (from Amazon US) for him. All of these are less that 0.8 calories per gram and do not contain poultry derivatives. (The only wet foods in India are Whiskas and Royal Canin which are both low quality and contain ingredients like "animal and animal derivatives" and "various sugars," so we definitely don't want to feed these to our cats.)

I am afraid it looks like he will need some hypoallergenic dry food in his diet to make up his calories each day.

I don't know what other foods might be available in India or that are available by ordering online that would be higher calorie and still be low carb and poultry free. It would be counter-productive to add dry food back in since that will cause problems with Hobbes glucose levels. Once a kitty has become diabetic, even if they go into remission, there is a greater chance of it returning if proper diet is not maintained. Another option would be to try making your own food...I don't know if this is feasible for you, but you could adjust calories by adding extra fat into the mix. OR if there is a good source of animal fat that would be suitable for Hobbs you could add extra into the wet food. Just throwing some idea out there.

You could try starting a new thread with a title "Need higher calorie food suggestions that are available in India" or something along that line. With a bit of brainstorming and people from different parts of the globe maybe you can find something that will work without having to revert to dry food.


ETA There is one dry food that is very low in carbs that members who have confirmed dry food addicts will use called Young Again Zero. It is very expensive, but not much is needed. I don't know if they ship to India however.
 
Thank you so much. Let me check.


Another thought is adding some baby food...plain no onion or garlic to the regular food. Something such as this:

http://calorielab.com/foods/baby-food/babyfood-meat-beef-junior/84/03003/5

has 76 calories in a 71 gram jar and has no carbs. I don't know if it has any onion or garlic since I just did a quick google for this information. I would assume that the baby food is "pure" meat and not a mixture of different protein sources, but you would have to check on that. I don't know if the quantity Hobbes would have to eat to get those extra calories is too much for him to consume. Still brainstorming ;)
 
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If you can do it, it seems that making your own food is your best option. . You can get mixtures that contains all the nutrients to add to the meat. You can control the calories by adding more fat, or choosing meats that are higher in fats. It might take a couple hours to make up the food. You can portion it into meal sized packs, put it in ziplock bags and freeze it. That let's you make up a months supply at a time. Just take it out of the freezer to thaw in the fridge the night before.

With all the people on the board, we will get this worked out.
 
I was making raw for Vyktor and adding fatty cuts of pork to get the calorie levels up.

Hobbes might be ok with a little dry food in his diet (as minimal as you can manage) since it does seem that his diabetes is steroid induced. There are a few kitties that have managed to maintain remission even though they've continued to get some dry for a variety of reasons. It would be interesting to test Hobbes a couple of times an hour after he's been fed with wet and an hour after he's been fed with dry to see how carb sensitive he is - ECID (every cat is different). In doing that experiement you'll want to test before he eats too so you have a base line from where he started.

I'm glad he's being so good for you, it really helps when you're already very close before you start as they do seem to understand that you wouldn't be doing this to them unless you had to :)
 
Hi everyone,

Thank you so much for your suggestions. I wasn't able to get back because I hurt my ankle and was bedridden but am finally moving around on crutches. But that's not important. What's important is that Hobbes is doing fine now! I've updated his blood glucose numbers in his spreadsheet for the record, but I hope we won't have to use it anymore. It appears the diabetes was transient from steroid use. He will continue on a combination of dry and wet food, and I'll try to keep the carb percentage down as much as possible, but, well, I'm so happy as you can imagine.

He's such a sweet cat, he lets me test his blood glucose by coming to me himself even with me out of commission and bedridden. He comes to me himself for his pills as well. Cats do know when you're helping them. My other cat, Tequila, who is also 12 years old and has feline asthma, comes herself to take her inhaler puff once a day. I thought it would be impossible to manage on a broken ankle, but the cats are so kind. I know I'm gushing but I'm just so grateful to them.

And to all of you for giving me the confidence to continue testing at home. Looking at your spreadsheets here gave me hope that I could manage Hobbes's diabetes diagnosis. One of my friends in the US has a cat who had a hypoglycemic episode recently. The vet did a curve at the hospital and prescribed 3 units of insulin twice a day. I've recommended my friend join this forum and start home testing, though I know it isn't so easy with all cats and there is some apprehension in the beginning about how to do it.

Thanks again.

Cheers,
Neha and Hobbes
 
Sorry you have hurt your ankle and I hope the healing process is well under way. Yes, our kitties do seem to know that we are trying to help them and how fortunate your kitty is being so co-operative with the testing...he must know that Mom needs some extra help right now. ;)

What great news about Hobbs!!! Steroids can indeed cause a transient diabetes, which seems to be the case with Hobbs. This is a perfect example of why home-testing can be so important. I would still continue testing periodically just to be on the safe side. I know your food choices are very restrictive in India and with Hobbs allergies, but do try to use as little dry food as possible.

:bighug: :bighug: :bighug:
 
@Tuxedo Mom Thank you so much. The cats seem to enjoy having me bedridden since they get to spend more time plonked on my lap! :) I cannot thank you enough for your suggestions. I will keep the dry down as much as possible and only give enough to meet his calorie requirements.
 
It might be worth looking at Zooplus for food choices (not sure if they'll ship to India but worth enquiring - they're probably cheaper than Amazon).

Hobbes is an absolute cutie!


Mogs
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