High numbers-ideas please

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Sharon14 said:
333. At +6. Can I sleep now or another test?
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Looks as though Colin may stay high this cycle, but I really can't tell you with 100% certainty if/when he's going to drop his #.

You might want to set an alarm and test at +8, just to be on the safe side. Could be that he only drops back into the 200s near +10 or so or even at AMPS - but again, I really can't predict at this point what he's going to do, as it may be that his body's still adjusting to this dose. (ECID)

So I guess all I can tell you is that it's up to you when you want to test ... sorry that I can't offer any better advice at the moment.
 
Just need to ask: Are you certain he didn't get a fur-shot or partial fur-shot* (it happens sometimes ... has to me!)

*ETA: Not that that's any big deal, either - but might explain why he's staying high. Not to worry, Sharon; sometimes kitties just run a high cycle from time to time.
 
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Sorry Robin I crashed midnight last night. Gave the cats a bit of food first, Colin got 1/4 can FF. This AMPS 370. 1 can FF for Breakfast. I have to work today. Funds are extremely low. Plan to do a normal day-feed after test-so I don't have to worry. I'll get what tests I can and keep record of feeding. I definitely can get a true curve Sat with no meals between AM & PM. As for fur shot last night, I don't think so, but he has pretty thick fur, so a little is possible. Didn't feel anything this AM. Trying to be more careful
 
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Hi Sharon! Heading in to work myself but wanted to say Good Morning! Looks like Colin stayed high last night. I'm super interested to see his PMPS tonight. It's interesting that his day cycle was lower than his night cycle. It's often the opposite!
 
It was nice to see those yellows. I wonder if the higher flat pm cycle was his version of a bounce. He could have bounced from the yellows or maybe there was a lower number hiding in there. I think, as long as you can monitor, I'd be tempted to stay at 5.5. (And as long as there are no low pre shot tests). He is dropping which is an improvement but so far no dangerous lows. Maybe it's finally a dose that he likes!
 
I noticed whenever he gets a day or two of some yellows, the next day or so we're all pink again. I was spot testing him before you set up the spreadsheet for him and he did that then too. So far today, all mid to upper 300's. Will Test PMPS in about 2hours.
 
Hi, Sharon - Just took a peek at Colin's SS; am relieved he didn't do any super-low drop on you overnight last night after his yellow PMPS. (Always better to err on the side of caution, but sorry if all that testing shorted you on some sleep!) I see he stayed in the pinks today; I agree with Sue re: staying the course for now! Let's just see what he does ...:bighug:
 
Colin's AMPS this AM was 434. His highest number since testing started. Is that normal with a dose increase? I've been very careful with injections, checking for fur shots. Feeding is same as it has been.
 
Hmmm...well I'm not sure what happened. It's possible he went lower after your +5 and bounced back up...might have had a late nadir. Or could he have gotten into any contraband by chance?

Honestly, there are a few reasons why he could have gone high, but we probably won't know what they are. It's all part of this sugar dance! I like that you stuck with 5.5 today...let's see where he goes. That might help us figure out why he was high.
 
He was high all day yesterday. The only contraband he could have gotten into was a small amount of Evo, I don't think he did though because there was still some in the bowl when I picked it up at 11PM(if Colin finds a bowl with food in it, there is NONE left when he's done). Is there any possibility he's on too much insulin? When I got copies of his previous curves from my vet, he'd start at 300's-400's but would actually go up instead of down after insulin was given. Notes by the tech stated how stressed he was and she had to force feed him, and I know he was already stressed from the drive over there. Then the vet would increase his dose. I wasn't home testing then, my vet said I could, but not that I should, and I didn't know any better, so I don't know how he responded to each dose increase. I guess I'm grasping at straws here. Will keep at the 5.5 dose. How long before we decide if it's helping?
 
This could be a couple of things (that I can think of, anyway); maybe others will have some additional ideas:

1) An as-yet-undiagnosed problem: Perhaps there's a UTI brewing, or some gum disease (gingivitis) going on, or another inflammatory process that is keeping Colin's numbers up. (I know that the prospect of another vet visit when funds are tight is not exactly something to jump for joy about ...)

Please test for ketones as soon as you can, Sharon - this is very important.

2) It's possible his ProZinc dose is too high: In looking at Colin's SS, I notice that he has - historically - nadired in the yellows more often when he was at 5U, and this was even before you switched to all low-carb foods. (Am I correct on that about the timing in regard to change in feeding?) Btw, did you read through this document @BJM sent you on Sunday? high dose conditions

I suppose you could try returning to 5.0 units.
But I would want another pair of experienced eyes to weigh in on your situation, too, before you make a decision on dosage.
 
He's been on canned food since diagnosis, but the other cats were on dry food, and he probably snuck some now and then. The others are on Evo now and I try to make sure he doesn't even get any of that. I've also cut back the amount of food he gets. He had a UTI in June, that's when the vet increased him to 5 units. He was on 2 different antibiotics and got a clean bill of health after. So far no ketones. As you say this is really expensive. I don't have the money for any more vet work. Can't even pay basic bills this month because of extra cat food costs...
 
Am glad he's not showing ketones - that's good! As for the expense - wow, I can only try to imagine how expensive it is to put multiple cats all on low-carb foods.

Well ... I'm out of ideas, here - except, as I mentioned above it could be possible that his body's reacting to a dose that a bit too high for him.
You've had him at 5.5U for six cycles now, and looks like he's stayed pretty much high & flat last 4 cycles (including this one today, so far).
@Sue and Oliver (GA) , @Rachel - Do you think Sharon might want to try going back to 5 units? (See my post above.)

One of my concerns, Sharon: You'd said in your first post that Colin had been on 5U since you'd been to the vet. So did the vet set that 5.0 dose based on the BG#s he got in-office? As Colin's #s could have spiked much higher than usual due to the stress of being at the vet's.
 
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Colin's history
Feb 12, 2015. Diagnosed BG 364. (Blood was sent to lab)
Feb 16, 2015 started on 1u ProZinc 2x/day
March 2, 2015. First curve -initial BG 394 was given 1u. BG went up to 643 then down to 507+6
April 6, 2015. 2nd curve. Initial BG 458. Given 2u. Stayed in 500's all day
May 6, 2015. 3rd curve. Initial BG 473. Given 3u was in 500's all day except @+3 was 425
June 26, 2015. 4th curve. Initial BG 586. Given 4u was in 600's all day. Was Dx with uti -dose increased to 5u
Notes from vet tech on all 4 curves said how stressed he was. Wouldn't eat so was force fed.
I've spoken with the vet on the phone, he wants him back for a curve. Said may be Somogyi effect. My vet seems like a good guy, but Colin was too stressed out while there. I can't take him back. May talk to my horse vet, see what she knows about feline diabetes (probably not much). Was thinking about trying some MSM for him. Have you heard anything about that?
 
No, I'm not familiar with using MSM. I am 100% in support of you not taking Colin back to that vet. Sounds to me like you could find one who's a little more knowledgeable about how much stress can affect a cat's BG #s. Going back every month for a curve in-office is ludicrous, IMHO.

Not only were those in-office curves really expensive for you; they were entirely too stressful for Colin! Noting that vet tech commented on how stressed he was during curves, it really does concern me that they were adjusting dosage based on #s from a VERY stressed out kitty. (Now you can see why testing & doing any curves at home can yield better results.)
 
Sharon, were you home testing at all during that time? I ask because I agree with Robin that the insulin being increased due to stressed out numbers at the vet is concerning. I was just wondering if you had any other numbers from that time.
 
No I did not home test. He said I could if I wanted, but it wasn't necessary and I would still have to come for curves, so I didn't bother. The original diagnosis in Feb was at a different vet. The blood (BG364)was taken after his eating a lot of temptations treats and he was dehydrated. That vet is a part time vet while raising her family, so she sent me to my present vet. Colin likes her(the 1st vet), I'll see about getting him in to check his teeth. I have a fear of anesthesia in my pets (in me too)
 
Sharon14 said:
No I did not home test. He said I could if I wanted, but it wasn't necessary and I would still have to come for curves, so I didn't bother. The original diagnosis in Feb was at a different vet. The blood (BG364)was taken after his eating a lot of temptations treats and he was dehydrated. That vet is a part time vet while raising her family, so she sent me to my present vet. Colin likes her(the 1st vet), I'll see about getting him in to check his teeth. I have a fear of anesthesia in my pets (in me too)
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Wow. Given the info in your post (#66) above - and now that we know you hadn't been home-testing during that time - all those dosage increases were based on in-office curves alone, which would make me suspect that Colin may, in fact, be on too much insulin. His body may be trying to self-correct; hence, the rather consistently high #s. That certainly is a possibility ... (noting, too, that the vet just now mentioned Somagyi effect when you called him).

I'd seriously consider dropping him back to 5.0 units for a few cycles to see how he does. Could you manage doing a full curve at home over the weekend with a dose reduction?
 
Curve tomorrow would be fine. I would like to see you get in at least one test tonight around +4 or +5, though, since you plan to drop the dose @ PMPS.
 
Good! (Always want to check around nadir when you're changing a dose. (I'm just one of those cautious types.;))
 
That's good, so am I. Thank you again for helping me and giving me a bit of hope.
A friend of mine, who is diabetic, showed this to me. She said taking MSM has helped her and I wondered if it might help cats. It is a natural anti inflammatory. I use it with my horses when they are sick or injured and have had great results. The vets are always amazed at how fast they heal. I take it too for mild arthritis and have had good results. The following is from a human diabetes site...

'Methyl-Sulfonyl-Methane (MSM) is a nutritional sulfur compound that is derived from DMSO. Msm can aid in the treatment of diabetes, as sulfur is needed to produce insulin and other vital components necessary for healthy carbohydrate metabolism, such as thiamin and biotin. Msm taken at 10 grams a day ( 2 1/2 teaspoons) can help restore the normal blood sugar levels to the cells. The sulfur makes the cell walls more permeable thus helping restore the pancreas functions to normal, as the blood sugar is absorbed by the cells.'

Just wondered if anyone had heard of it's use in diabetic cats.
 
Cautious is best! I like the decision to drop back. It'll be interesting to see where he goes.
 
Sharon14 said:
'Methyl-Sulfonyl-Methane (MSM) is a nutritional sulfur compound that is derived from DMSO. Msm can aid in the treatment of diabetes, as sulfur is needed to produce insulin and other vital components necessary for healthy carbohydrate metabolism, such as thiamin and biotin. Msm taken at 10 grams a day ( 2 1/2 teaspoons) can help restore the normal blood sugar levels to the cells. The sulfur makes the cell walls more permeable thus helping restore the pancreas functions to normal, as the blood sugar is absorbed by the cells.'

Just wondered if anyone had heard of it's use in diabetic cats.
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Might put a question shout-out about the MSM on the Main Health Forum
where more eyes will see it. Based on what you just posted about it, I think I'll start taking it for its anti-inflammatory properties!:)
 
All I know about DMSO is that my father used it on his horses and he thought it was a very strong, powerful medicine that has to be used carefully. I don't know that I'd use on any other species.

As far as his number, I liked the two yellows you got at first but now it looks counter productive. I would say, if you want to reduce (and I think it might be a good idea) to go ahead and reduce by half - maybe down to 2.5, plan to test often. And test for ketones regularly. Any time you reduce, it's a good idea.

If you get lower numbers, then we're right and he needs less insulin. If not, then it may be time to look at high dose conditions and another insulin.
 
Sue and Oliver (GA) said:
I would say, if you want to reduce (and I think it might be a good idea) to go ahead and reduce by half - maybe down to 2.5, plan to test often. And test for ketones regularly. Any time you reduce, it's a good idea.

If you get lower numbers, then we're right and he needs less insulin. If not, then it may be time to look at high dose conditions and another insulin.
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@Sue and Oliver (GA) - Good to see you, Sue! Knowing that you have more experience with ProZinc's actions than I do, I want to learn more here: So when you're reducing a dose in a high & flat situation like this one, you can actually cut the dose by 50% as long as there's frequent testing going on? Are there any other scenarios where this would apply? (Obviously, I didn't know this could be done safely ...)
 
Thanks Sue. I was wondering, since he's been on 5u for so long if I should reduce slowly, or not. So you think give him only 2.5 starting tomorrow?

About the MSM, while it is derived from DMSO, it's not nearly as strong. It's really just a form of Sulpher, and has no known side effects. I have read of it's use in cats and dogs with some success.
 
My thinking, Robin and Sharon, is that, if you are going to do a restart and reduce the dose, you might as well go whole hog. If he is getting too much insulin, it probably happened a while ago in this journey and a big reduction, if we are right, will give you some pretty immediate feedback. If he drops, we're right. If wrong, then you go right back up.

Going down slowly may just keep him on the same flat track and we won't get our answer soon enough, if at all.

It is a little scary to do, because you don't want him getting less insulin than he needs. But if he is in the high 400s on the high dose, he can't get much higher. We'll just hope for a lower number.

The other alternative is needing another insulin or a high dose condition. You should know in a few cycles.
 
Sharon14 said:
Thanks Sue. I was wondering, since he's been on 5u for so long if I should reduce slowly, or not. So you think give him only 2.5 starting tomorrow?

About the MSM, while it is derived from DMSO, it's not nearly as strong. It's really just a form of Sulpher, and has no known side effects. I have read of it's use in cats and dogs with some success.
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Good luck Sharon, I've been following this thread and I am keeping good thoughts for Collin and You.!
 
To get your +8 back is to click on say the +7 on top (the J cell). Click on the right side of the mouse or pad while on the J cell. Then click on 1 Insert right.
 
Sue and Oliver (GA) said:
My thinking, Robin and Sharon, is that, if you are going to do a restart and reduce the dose, you might as well go whole hog. If he is getting too much insulin, it probably happened a while ago in this journey and a big reduction, if we are right, will give you some pretty immediate feedback. If he drops, we're right. If wrong, then you go right back up.

Going down slowly may just keep him on the same flat track and we won't get our answer soon enough, if at all.

It is a little scary to do, because you don't want him getting less insulin than he needs. But if he is in the high 400s on the high dose, he can't get much higher. We'll just hope for a lower number.

The other alternative is needing another insulin or a high dose condition. You should know in a few cycles.
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@Sue and Oliver (GA) Cool!:cool: Thanks for the good explanation on that, Sue - will add this to my "ProZinc dosing library!"
@Sharon14 - This will be good timing for you, since you were planning on doing a curve tomorrow anyway!:) Am excited to see how it goes ...
 
Do you know if you have a "mobile" vet near by? Some towns have that available and maybe being vet checked at home could help.
 
Thanks everyone for your support. It's exciting and scary. I'm afraid to get my hopes up that we've found an answer. I live out in the middle of nowhere, No mobile vets here, and the vets charge $50 to do a farm call on top of regular fees. Will keep you posted
 
Well, I tried to add the column to my spreadsheet and I completely screwed it up. Don't know where half of it went... Tired now, will try to figure it out tomorrow, but if anyone has any ideas...
 
Hey Sue! Thanks for jumping in...I've been wondering if she shouldn't drop a bunch...but I wasn't really sure what to suggest. :)
 
Rachel said:
Hey Sue! Thanks for jumping in...I've been wondering if she shouldn't drop a bunch...but I wasn't really sure what to suggest. :)
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@Rachel - I hear you on that; was so glad when Sue answered my tag (and you, too, btw)! Sue's explanation as to why a deep dose redux is okay in this situation makes perfect sense. :)
 
I think I may have screwed up. I gave the 2.5 as suggested, but it didn't feel right. Don't think it was a fur shot, but didn't feel like the needle went under the skin, more like in the skin maybe. I guess now we won't know if high numbers are my fault or the lowered dose. Was excited this AM, now just depressed and angry at myself. Still having trouble with my spreadsheet, now it won't even let me see it to add numbers. AMPS 398
+2 485
+4 426
It has come down a bit. Will check again in 2 hours. If anyone can help me with the spreadsheet, I'd really appreciate it.
 
That might work in our favor - it's a lower dose anyway. It may take a couple cycles to see any improvement (if we are going to see any - no guarantees) but a general downward trend would be nice....
 
Sorry that I can't be of assist with the SS, but just wanted to say: Don't beat yourself up, Sharon - you're doing just fine! (Except for that confounded SS going so wonky on you ...) It's pretty normal to see a BG spike in the first couple of hours after feeding, and he's going down @ +4, so that dose may have actually hit the mark. Keep in mind that this is not an instantaneous process, either. (Breathe in slowly; breathe out slowly. Repeat ...) :bighug:
 
My only idea about the spreadsheet is to go back to your original on Goggle. So open up Goggle docs and find his spreadsheet. Add the cels you need and see if it works. @BJM do you have any other ideas for her spreadsheet?
 
(BTW - Might want to start a new thread here today & call it something like "Colin's BG Curve" - as this one's getting pretty long ...)
 
That would be super. If you can just get the top looking right, I can plug in the numbers. What do you need to get the access?
 
That is what I don't know what to do. Sue, I know you create spreadsheets...can I fix this spreadsheet with the same process i.e access?? I don't know how to access it. Thanks.
 
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