High numbers-ideas please

Status
Not open for further replies.
Sharon14

Sharon14

Very Active Member
Can someone please help me figure something out. Colin is completely off dry food- I'm giving him 3 cans FF/day, two larger meals and the rest spaced out through the day. And still his numbers are extremely high. The last few days he's not drinking/peeing much in excess and he looks pretty good-tired, but good coat, bright eyes, good appetite, no bowel problems,etc. He still has the neuropathy and has been on Zobaline a few days, but I know that can be improved if I can get those numbers lower. I just don't know what to do. Increase dose? Change feeding routine? Go back to my vet? Or is it just too late? Haven't been to the vet in a month, just don't have the funds with having to buy more expensive food for all 15 cats, that's how long we've been on the 5u dose. Last time I talked to him he said some cats are just hard to regulate and need higher doses. If that's true, then ok, whatever it takes. I just need some answers. Thanks
 
If you started low and gradually increased to the 5 unit dose, plus aren't able to go with low carb food, then the dose will need to be higher.
You're getting a drop of about 120 mg/dL with 5 units.
Increasing the dose another 0.25 units would be appropriate; if you're going to be home and able to test, you might increase by 0.5 units.

You might consider the cost of the insulin vs the cost of the lower carb food. At what level of insulin dose would it be less costly to feed low carb to all of the cats, than it is to increase the insulin dose?

Also, check out the various dry foods you would consider with this online calculator. Maybe you can find one a little lower in carb, yet affordable, which you could use for all of them.
 
Last edited:
I don't know, Sharon. Your vet is right - some cats need more insulin than others. He is dropping mid cycle so the insulin is working. Is he still getting into the other cats' dry food? If so, that will are it harder to regulate him.

If he were mine, I think I would increase to 5.5, on a day you can test mid cycle and see how he looks.

I know you are discouraged but his numbers aren't awful. Any time he is under 250 - what we think is the renal threshold - his pancreas can heal.
 
Thanks for the quick replies. He is on low carb Fancy Feast pates. The others are all on Friskies pates and Evo. I keep him away from the others food so I can keep track of the amount he eats. I'm worried because it's been so long. He was started on 1u 2x/day in Feb and increased 1u/month when I brought him in for curves. I couldn't afford to bring him in more often than that. I wish I had found this site sooner...
 
Did some background work today, got copies of Colin's 1st test he had back in Feb - blood work sent off to the lab to see what was wrong. It came back with a glucose level of 354-that was after eating half a bag of Temptations treats and he was dehydrated. That vet put him on subQ fluids and sent me to another vet because she felt she didn't know enough about diabetes treatment. I went to this vets office today to get a copy of the curves we've done in the last months. There were 4. His numbers upon arriving were upper 300's -400's. Through the day he actually got worse and I saw notes from the tech running the tests about how stressed he was and how she had to force feed him. He will NEVER go back there for a curve. I had no idea it was that bad for him. This evening I gave the dose increase as was suggested. I'm not sure exactly how much I gave him though. It's hard to tell on the syringes, but I think it was 5.5. How many cycles before I can tell if it's helping? I guess if it doesn't help the next step would be tests for the high dose conditions BJM mentioned, Although he doesn't show outward signs of those things. About feeding, my vet wants 2x/day feedings, he says that makes regulation easier. I used to free feed, now I give Colin 2 large meals(1 can each FF classic) and 1 more can spread through the day. He's starving, which I know is because of the high glucose. I read on this forum that someone did the same thing but found that the extreme hunger was stressful to the cat and started feeding more food, more often and his numbers came down. I also read that some added fiber might lower BG's a bit. Are either of these something I should consider? I'm just trying to find anything that might help even a little bit. It breaks my heart to see him just laying there so tired. Thanks
PS just took a +3 reading with the new dosage, 401. That's the 1st 400 reading since the 18th. Will test again +5 or 6
 
Sharon14 said:
About feeding, my vet wants 2x/day feedings, he says that makes regulation easier. I used to free feed, now I give Colin 2 large meals(1 can each FF classic) and 1 more can spread through the day. He's starving, which I know is because of the high glucose. I read on this forum that someone did the same thing but found that the extreme hunger was stressful to the cat and started feeding more food, more often and his numbers came down. I also read that some added fiber might lower BG's a bit.
Click to expand...
I'm sorry you're having a hard time, Sharon :bighug: - we all know how frustrating & stressful it is when you don't see those numbers coming down. I also know how it hurts your heart when your kitty makes it so clear that he's hungry all the time (went through that same thing with Bat-Bat).

As hard as it may be to try it, you probably should give your vet's advice a try re: the daily rations split into 2 meals/day @ AMPS/PMPS. While I understand that many feel it may be stressful for Colin to feel hungry, my concern is that some of the problem with his #s not coming down may, in fact, be associated with that "1 more can spread through the day."

The only way you'll know for certain is to do a "rule-out:" Give 2 meals/day a fair trial (not just one or two or three days, either); this would mean sticking to no food at all in between those 2 large meals (unless you need to steer out of a near-hypo #). And I know that can be heart-wrenching, but really: He will not starve on 2 meals per day.

If you're worried about scarf & barf, these little tips can really help:
- Add some water to the canned food to slow him down;
- Pick the dish up for about 5 minutes mid-meal, for a little "food rest;"
- Elevate his feeding surface (a shoebox works nicely), so that his head isn't down at floor level while eating.

I only suggest trying your vet's recommendation on feeding schedule because that change did make a positive difference for me in getting Bat-Bat regulated. If it doesn't work for Colin, you'll know soon enough ...

I am sending some serious lower-number healing vibes to you & Colin!:bighug::bighug::bighug:
 
I'll give it a try. He's a large cat, was 18 lbs before diabetes, now 13, which my vet says is a good weight. How much food do you think he needs?
 
Sharon14 said:
I'll give it a try. He's a large cat, was 18 lbs before diabetes, now 13, which my vet says is a good weight. How much food do you think he needs?
Click to expand...
Before I can answer that: Did you look at him from above, while he's standing and compare his shape to the body condition chart? Does he have that "cut-in" when viewed from above? (Meaning a kitty "waistline?") Please let me know ...
 
Yes, I think so. Was trying to get a good look but he keeps sitting down and looking up at me! Just checked his +5, 331
 
Sharon, I realize you have a real challenge on your hands in treating Colin's diabetes as yours is a multi-cat household, but ...

- Is there food left down for the others - anywhere in the house - at other times of day? (My concern is that unless you get all of your cats on a two meals/day plan, it's impossible for you to have your eyes on Colin 24/7; even a few nibbles of contraband food can make an enormous difference where getting Colin regulated is concerned. Actually, even though the others probably won't like that sort of change at first, it might make your life a lot easier.)

- Also, does Colin ever go outdoors? (Forgive me if you answered this back in another thread, but I need you to refresh my memory if you did).
 
I stand guard over everyone at feeding time and pick up all bowls after. He does go out for an hour or so AM. We sit together on the front porch. He is not a hunter, never has been. The only thing he eats outside is the occasional blade of grass. It's real hard to get them all on twice a day. Some of the older ones sleep through meals then wake up yelling. They're all used to grazing. They stay in the house at night, so breakfast is hectic. The ones that go out during the day often go to the barn and eat the barn cats food. Colin can't get there because he can't jump through the gate with his neuropathy but I watch him outside anyway. Would a treat of chicken be ok after testing? That's when I usually give him a spoon of FF so whenever I sit in the 'testing chair' he comes. I'd hate for that to change.
 
Sharon14 said:
Would a treat of chicken be ok after testing? That's when I usually give him a spoon of FF so whenever I sit in the 'testing chair' he comes. I'd hate for that to change.
Click to expand...
Well ... I would really avoid that, for now: Try a scritch under the chin or a nice cuddle as a reward instead. Remember: You're treating an illness here, not rewarding Colin for cleaning up his room.:)
(Again, I know how hard this is to do; please don't think that I am unsympathetic toward you & your kitty.)

Try to keep thinking along these lines in your efforts to get Colin better regulated: The food is "medicine," too, or even anti-medicine if administered incorrectly (i.e., wrong amounts/ wrong type/ wrong timing, etc.)

You say Colin is a big cat, that he weighed 18 lbs before diabetes - but I think we can safely assume that 18 lbs means he was an obese kitty back then.
As for his current 13 lbs, he may actually need to drop a little bit more; my vet told me that slender is preferable in a diabetic cat (not emaciated/skin & bones, like they so often look after diabetes has been eating away at them). Seeing the results for my own cat, I have to say I agree with him on that. I only mention this because my cat used to weigh 18 lbs. and she is a large-frame cat, too. Now she weighs about 11 lbs. I think Colin might be just fine at 12.5 lbs - or maybe, over time, even 12 lbs.

An extra 1/2 pound or so may not sound like/look like much - but on a cat's body? That's actually quite a bit when you're treating diabetes!

Your cat is a male; often we perceive them as naturally being larger than their female counterparts. (Anybody would think Bat-Bat is a male!) But all things considered, you may actually want to slightly reduce his rations: By say only 0.25 of a Fancy Feast can, to 2.75 cans FF total per day, divided into the two meals. (You had him on a total of 3 cans per 24 hrs, right?) But it may actually be better for you to wait several days before attempting any type of small redux in rations - thereby allowing Colin's body to adjust to the change in feeding routine first.

Then you might might try that slight reduction in rations for a week to 10 days; weighing him daily. (Is never a good idea for a cat to lose even a half-pound too quickly.)

Keep in mind that - especially with a change in feeding routine - even a gradual/ small food reduction will make it important for you to monitor him closely around nadir time. As shifting the food-insulin balance could result in a significant shift downward in his numbers. (That's what we're ultimately hoping for, right?)

Is up to you, of course, which (if any) of these additional ideas I've offered up that you want to try: You not only hold the syringe; you also hold the food dish. ;)
Will be thinking good thoughts for you, Sharon - regardless!:bighug: - Robin
 
A few ?'s. After feeding, how long before BG's go up? This AM I was so tired and thinking about the feeding change that I completely forgot the AMPS test. I got one immediately after food, but I know his BG's were probably already rising. Also I've increased Colin's dose to 5.5 (from5) just last night, should I decrease (change) his feeding routine at the same time or wait a few days to see what the new dose does.
 
Hey Sharon! If you got a test right after you fed it should be okay. I'm not sure how fast BG goes up but it shouldn't be within those few minutes. The number is close to what you've been getting which also tells me it wasn't food influenced.

So you just increased last night? I might wait to make a food change tomorrow. I don't think it would be unsafe to do today but this way you'll know what it does...if the numbers suddenly go down you want to know why so you know how to do it again. I do like Robins plan to change. Tomorrow you'll have 3 cycles of new dose which is a good time to change.
 
Thank you Rachel! Like many newbies here, I'm exhausted and scared. Having the support of the people here does help. Thanks again
 
I share your frustration Sharon, Rupert has been hard to regulate, but it is getting better and so will Colin's. You are doing a great job, just keep it up and with all the great support and help here, you will succeed! Remember to breathe! :bighug:
 
Sharon14 said:
Thank you Rachel! Like many newbies here, I'm exhausted and scared. Having the support of the people here does help. Thanks again
Click to expand...
Yes, I totally agree with Rachel - wait a day, just to see how he's reacting to the dose change, then you can shift the feeding schedule.

As for rising BGs after food - yep, those #s can rise pretty quickly (depending on the individual cat's metabolism, of course.) But don't worry, Sharon - we've all done things like spacing out a test, oversleeping (that would be me!), etc., etc. (Is hard not to panic, isn't it?)

Lynn is right: You're doing a great job; we're all proud of you for the level of your commitment to making Colin better.:)
You need lots of these this morning, sweetie:
:bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug:
 
Colin got a 292 PMPS That's the lowest he's had since 8/13 (before I had a spreadsheet). Does that mean the dose increase is working or is it too soon to tell?
 
Sharon14 said:
Colin got a 292 PMPS That's the lowest he's had since 8/13 (before I had a spreadsheet). Does that mean the dose increase is working or is it too soon to tell?
Click to expand...
Could be; the main thing is that you should get some more tests in - I would really go for a +7, too - as you have just upped his dose and you're trying to see exactly where he nadirs this cycle. (Is possible you could have missed it...) You can't really go by that +6 on 8/23, for example, and this is why: You'd been giving him 1 can of FF spread throughout the day - these little dollops of food throughout the cycle raise his BGs just enough that you've really not been able to get a good read on when Colin nadirs ... with only a random test here & there mid-cycle while you've been doing that, how can you know for sure?

I know we'd suggested you wait a day before changing up his food routine - so when was the last time you'd given him a bit of food? And what times & how much food has Colin had between AMPS & that +6 you just reported?
 
Robin&BB said:
Could be; the main thing is that you should get some more tests in - I would really go for a +7, too - as you have just upped his dose and you're trying to see exactly where he nadirs this cycle. (Is possible you could have missed it...) You can't really go by that +6 on 8/23, for example, and this is why: You'd been giving him 1 can of FF spread throughout the day - these little dollops of food throughout the cycle raise his BGs just enough that you've really not been able to get a good read on when Colin nadirs ... with only a random test here & there mid-cycle while you've been doing that, how can you know for sure?

I know we'd suggested you wait a day before changing up his food routine - so when was the last time you'd given him a bit of food? And what times & how much food has Colin had between AMPS & that +6 you just reported?
Click to expand...
I'm not saying you've done anything wrong here, Sharon - rest assured you haven't! I'm just trying to get a clear picture of his food intake today during this cycle up to this moment in time ...
 
+6 he was 274
PMPS. 292
I gave him 1/4 can FF after +6 test. He didn't seem quite as starving today, just hungry(if that makes sense). I had to go do some work after the +6 so I wasn't home will try to get a +7 tonight, if I can stay awake:coffee:
 
Ok, I was confused about our time difference. He was at 274 @ +6, then you just a while ago got a PMPS of 292. Did you go ahead and give the 5.5 units after feeding at PMPS? Please advise...
 
Thanks for the input. I really appreciate it! I got a good look at Colin from above today as he was walking. He definitely has a waist
 
Ok, that's what I needed to know!
His PMPS @ 292 is a significant change from his AMPS. I know how exhausting all this is, but I really think you need to get a +4, a +5 and a +6 tonight if at all possible. (Is a drag, I know - as I've had to do this, too!) I'd suggest you set some alarms so that you can wake up to do it, even if you're intending to give him any little bits of food (although I'd rather you wait on that, at least until you test @ +4 and we see what kind of # you get then.) Please tell me: what time will it be in your zone at +4?
 
Ok, that's @ 7:45 pm my time, so I will be around. I hope this doesn't all sound too confusing to you, it's just that I'd really like you to be able to clearly identify where he nadirs tonight; it could be as early as +3.5 or +4, or as late as +6 or thereabouts.

You see, we really don't know when he nadirs as yet, because of the way in which he'd been getting food spread out through his previous cycles. (Does that explanation make sense?)
 
@Rachel , @Sue and Oliver (GA) - It is beginning to storm here, & I think you both may be aware that my ISP connection can go all wonky on me at the worst possible time.:banghead: Can either, or both, of you to be around to help monitor Sharon & Colin's mid-cycle tonight?

My concern is that there's a nearly 100 pt. drop @ PMPS as compared to his AMPS#, with an 0.5 unit dose increase that was begun last night ... (Just want some good eyes here to guide Sharon in case my connection dies.) Please let me know if you can help here, ok? I'm wondering if she maybe should go for a +3 test, just to be on the cautious side. What do you think?
 
I can be around for a bit.

How long ago was insulin given? I think a +3 would give a very good indication of where he's going tonight. That might tell if we're in for an active cycle or if things are going to stay fairly even. Sharon, can you get a +3 to see where he's headed tonight? Also, Sharon, do you know what to do if you get low numbers (just in case)?
 
I can get a +3. He's at +1.5 now. Looks normal so far. I have honey and gravy lovers fancy feast. At what number should I use them? Anything else?
 
If he goes down to 50 if start. Give home some of the gravy off the food and keep testing. If he goes lower after that you can try the honey. I don't know that it'll be necessary but good to know. :) I'll check on you before I head to bed...have you tested recently? If so what number did you get?
 
Hi, Sharon - Looks like the storm's letting up - just wanted you to know I'll be around, too; usually still up until until around 11 pm or so, Pacific Daylight Time. (2 hrs. behind you ...) :)
 
Since you're here Robin I'm off to bed! Was getting ready to set an alarm :)

I'll be here early...about quarter after 5 central if you need anything in the morning Sharon!
 
Rachel said:
Since you're here Robin I'm off to bed! Was getting ready to set an alarm :)
I'll be here early...about quarter after 5 central if you need anything in the morning Sharon!
Click to expand...
@Rachel - Cool! Cause there's no way I'll be up at that hour ...;) (Unless my insomnia strikes again.:rolleyes:) ETA: Sweet dreams, Rachel!
 
Sharon14 said:
+3 387. About where he always is at +3
Click to expand...
Ok, that's good. I would guess he's probably going to nadir around +5 to +6, but you may still want to go for a +4, too, in view of the reason stated in my earlier post tonight. (Big diff. btwn AMPS/PMPS #s today.)
 
+4 379. How often should I test tonight? I hate to go to the kitchen, Colin follows me and cries for a snack
 
Hmm ... it's starting to look like he might nadir late on you tonight, maybe not even until +6 or +7 ... or he could drop in the next hour. It's really not easy to tell, Sharon, because he's still high @ +4. My concern is only because of the much-lower preshot # tonight at this dose.
I know he's hungry (because of the diabetes not yet being under control), but if you feed him now, it would be kind of counterproductive for your effort to find his nadir tonight. you know?
 
Yeah, I think you'd probably be ok with a +6; it doesn't look to me like he's going to drop all that much in the next hour. (Ha, if he hasn't dropped by +6, you may have to go for a +7. (Will cross fingers!)
 
No problem, coffee pots still on. I get up at 5:30 AM and test then. I have to go do some work in town tomorrow. Is there a number at which I should lower the dose? I can try to run home to test him at +4 or so not sure(it's a 20 min drive one way). Then back to town for a couple more hours. I'm self employed so if he has a problem I can stay home, but I've done that a lot lately, worried about him, and I really need to work -no work, no pay.
 
Sharon14 said:
No problem, coffee pots still on. I get up at 5:30 AM and test then. I have to go do some work in town tomorrow. Is there a number at which I should lower the dose? I can try to run home to test him at +4 or so not sure(it's a 20 min drive one way). Then back to town for a couple more hours. I'm self employed so if he has a problem I can stay home, but I've done that a lot lately, worried about him, and I really need to work -no work, no pay.
Click to expand...
Yeah, it's lucky that you're self-employed so that your schedule is more flexible than people who have to trudge off to the 9 to 5 all day...
I'd say it would probably be a good idea to get a +4 tomorrow, though.

As for a dose reduction, we usually try to hold the dose for 5 to 6 cycles on ProZinc; he gave you a nice yellow at pre-shot tonight, which is a big improvement. :) So I guess I'd say you'll need to see what kind of an AMPS you get in the morning; if he's still in the upper 200s, you'll likely want to hold that dose for a few more cycles yet.

Rachel will be around at that hour to help you out at AMPS-time. (I'll be asleep then, 'cause it'll be 3:30 am here.:confused: But will take a peek at his SS to see how it went when I'm up around 6:30am my time.)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top