? Hi March 12/24 - Gina and Chavvie

hello,

my cat Chavvie is 13 yoa. he was diagnosed with early kidney disease two years ago, and is well managed. He does not lose protein to his urine, thankfully. Pros fine, even his creatinine was quite good until this last finding w sugar high in the blood. Creat. 213.

recently, he was found to have a fructosamine test indicating 319, but a blood glucose reading of 12 . a urine test at the vet indicated sugar in the urine, and a few urine tests at home in the proceeding 2 weeks to that, indicated sugar in the urine

so I have found my way to your site. The vet is theorizing. He is prediabetic. The food he was on was royal Canin, wet, renal D with a carb content of 15%. The vet is now prescribing royal Canin select protein PD also with a carb content of 15% ? I have also bought some Purina pro plan DM, wet as its carb is lower.

What I’m really wondering is do I need to be at 10 or below even if he is prediabetic. He is carrying about 1 pound of extra weight, weighing in currently at 15 1/2. 2I have bought some Purina pro plan DM, wet as it’s carb is lower, but protein 43 higher than prior renal diet protein 28 . What I’m really wondering is do I need to be at 10 or below even if he is prediabetic. And worried about upped protein for the renal, but I’m not sure this is problematic as I kind of feel that the full renal RC formula was a little low in protein …. He is a big boy naturally.

also questions about Purina Hydro care. I had chavvie on three packets per day and I am scared because I started to think this is what was keeping his kidney numbers so good. The vet ordered me to take him off of it with the sugar stuff here. So I am trying to make chicken broth and tuna broth, and he is not impressed. So therefore, I do not believe he is his as well hydrated with the low thirst deal that the cats have (pardon, my lack of proper grammar please!)

the vet believes there is sugar in the hydra care. Obviously, she believes this is significant. I feel dubious about this because I feel like Hydro care is in widespread use at least in the USA and I see through this diabetes site here, and I can’t get confirmation that the Hydro care is problematic for his sugar level. ? I find it odd that there wouldn’t be some more concrete information/feedback, especially for folks using hydra care for cats with sugar issues, existing diabetes, and the like.

I’m also wondering if it is OK for me to feed him just two times a day while also trying to give him hydration a couple times separately

I am a person that tends to overdo it and overreact when it comes to my cats. So I am hoping for your input and also I think for a bit of a frame of reference on what level of concern I should have about this new possible prediabetes situation?
Best of luck to all of you and your kitties and thank you so much for any and all assistance for me, and my boy!
Goodnight.

 

The normal range for a non-diabetic cat is 2.7-6.6.

Many of us have managed diabetes and kidney disease. It can be done.

More in a moment. I'm looking things up. And welcome. Waving from Canada.

 

It would be a good idea to buy a human glucometer and test at home for a few days. Some cats have higher numbers at the vet due to stress. This will give you a better idea of what's what. The vet may insist on a pet meter. Strips for a pet meter can be very expensive. Before a market was found for pet meters, vets used human meters. The two meters are calibrated differently so it is impossible to correlate numbers. A human meter works just fine. Methods here take into account both types of meter.

The food charts contain phosphorus levels. For low carb, you want to look for under 10% carbs and preferably under 1% phosphorus. A higher phosphorus can be managed using aluminum hydroxide if needed. It doesn't sound like you are at that stage yet. But it would be good to keep phosphorous as low as the cat will eat.
https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/links-to-food-charts.174182/

This site is the best for kidney: https://www.felinecrf.org/

A discussion regarding hydracare can be found here: https://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/question-about-purina-hydracare.284848/

Off to bed for me. And welcome again.

 

if you tap on this link and look at post #32 I listed some Weruva pates for another member that's low carb/ low phosphorus.
https://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/new-member-11-8-and-i-am-tired.283363/#post-3124085

 

hi. I fear I am trying trying to figure out another website and I am taking a crash course in another cat illness and I’m screwing up my texts and my messages again. I’m just in overwhelm

I don’t seem to have the brain flexibility to instantly know how to use these little programs anymore, which is profoundly frustrating to me !!

I wanted to thank you folks for your responses and information. Unfortunately I can’t seem to get the specificity around the hydra care. I had a definitely already perused this site before putting out a question to the membership as I feel is the responsible thing to do

anyway I am going to get a glucose metre for humans as it sounds like the cheaper option. Thank you very much for the list of suitable BFF foods. I have copied that

he is thrown off by the food changes impossd upon him and the lack of his hydra care and this is disturbing me. He is in appetent and constipated and anyway it’s just the way it is right now and it will be OK. I pulled the RCD back out as it was relatively in range anyway??

sometimes the solution is worse than the problem ha ha. I find out because I overreact. But the lack of concrete information i.e. on the Hydracare is just a non-starter. I just can’t cope with that right now

I am trying to make broths and things and he just rejects them unless i.e. they have a substantial amount of tuna in them which I need to avoid

I do get frustrated with the vets period. It is kind of like only a partial solution. Thank God for these sites one by the way, I have belong to the CRF for a couple years now that is sort of how I got to this one. And I am in Canada for what it’s worth. Eh?

thanks again I’ll be in touch. Cheers best to all kitties

 

Tagging @Suzanne & Darcy and @JL and Chip who are most knowledgeable.

Waving from Ontario.

 

Thank you. Waving back at you from white rock, just outside Vancouver, BC. .

 

I spent my teen years on the Island.
I'll tag @Wendy&Neko for Vancouver things.

 

I haven't seen people complain about Hydracare increasing their cats blood glucose. According to this link, the as-fed carb % is 2.2%, so well within what we call low carb foods. It should be OK to feed.

Many people use the Freestyle Lite blood glucose meter. The test strips for it needs the smallest amount of blood. Which will make it easier for you. Sometimes London Drugs has a "buy 100 test strips, get the meter for free" deal. In general I found Superstore and Safeway Pharmacy the cheapest places for diabetes supplies, heard good things about Costco too. Do ask around, prices vary quite a bit, and it was a while ago for me.

Waving "hi" from the mountain side of Burrard Inlet.

 

@Ginachavvie
Hi do you have the date correct in your title?
Do you mean March 12th ,2024
If so can you fic it to read 3/12 please
To change it look to the right tap on the word Thread Tools , then tap in Edit title and correct it .
Only because I didn't know what mar meant

 

March 15/24

hello again!

I want to thank everybody for advice, comments, support, and the warm welcoming to me and Chavvie…

I’ve now had the benefit of a proper vet consult ! Makes a difference. . ($94.50 nowadays eekkkk! )

I’ve learned that senvalgo (sp?) IS available in Canada, in the event that we come to need it (in case needles are not possible for us - he is big and super feisty and I live alone) I’ve also learned that Hydro care doesn’t Have a big sugar content so that was a false alarm from a different vet at the clinic, and I’ve learned a fair bit about what to pursue as far as a glucometer, and where!

and I’ve learned that there seems to be a number of us either currently residing in BC or once having down so

seems like things have settled down for me. Just now, next decision would be whether to take him back in 3 weeks to recheck blood, urine. I am able to drop urine off at clinic, and use strips, but for now the vet is saying sort of false alarm leave things alone, other than changing diet tweaks, a little a bit of weight loss program ..

I guess I will do the urine strips twice a week for the next bit, but I am really reluctant to spend another $300 and subject him to all of the stress which might give a false blood glucose anyway. (His fructosamine was ok). It seems more important to me to get with the healthy program/changes we need for now. I don’t have unlimited funds, so there should Consideration of the finances, although Never deny any required treatments due to that…

Any comments, thoughts, always appreciated

Bye for now, best of health to cats and their families!

 

Giving a lower carb food will help, but it may not be enough to keep away diabetes. Best to keep on top of testing him. His fructosamine is on the upper end of the reference range.

Senvelgo, like Bexacat, would not be a good idea for him because of early kidney disease you mention in your first post. Good to know they are available locally.

If you buy a Freestyle Lite blood glucose meter, and can get one of those deals where the meter is free if you buy the test strips (try London Drugs or Walmart), it'll cost you less than $100. Once cats get the idea that testing blood sugar means a treat, they become very compliant. We have lots of members who live alone and manage their cat's diabetes. So we can give you lots of tips should it come to that.

Using the ketodiastix to test sugar in his urine is another option for short term. If you do that, please also check out the ketones reading. You don't want it anything above trace or he'll need insulin ASAP.

 

Hi Wendy and Neko,

Can I buy the American freestyle lite? Do you think it would be a big deal to just get used to the conversion. It looks to be a cheaper system and you can buy fewer test strips - 25 even. It just does work better for my budget right now?

also, can I ask a diet question ? please know I have read widely here and ckd site (but over a short period of time) , should I be under 10 carbs. The food the vet wants is 15. She is biasing for the kidneys. That is her position.

She wants him switched to actually keeps the carb level the same, but swaps out five points in favour of protein versus fat. I can see the merit in that, because with his early kidney, I usually supplemented protein to him as I felt that the full RC kidney was really a bit low. The second half of his daily food was the RC wet aging 12+. I do think that one was higher carb (can’t remember # just now) and that one I eliminated right away when I got the recent bloods.

thank you very much,I appreciate your posts.

 

Forgot to mention she believes that this point that the sv go/bexacat will be OK for him. Apparently the fine print is that you definitely want to avoid for any kind of later kidney. But she is going to a training seminar to get more specific on that at the beginning of April , so very soon…
Thanks again…

 

No need to buy the American Freestyle Lite, unless it's easy and cheaper for you. I used a Contour with Canadian numbers and a Relion from the US with their numbers. I have a spreadsheet (see attached) that shows the conversion. Pretty easy to become bilingual.

We are careful about Bexacat/Senvelgo here. We had a member with a kitty who had some mild ketones when he got his FD diagnosis, vet put him on Bexacat, ketones soared, he didn't make it.

Early stage kidneys it is more important to have good quality protein than low protein. You've probably read this page? http://felinecrf.org/which_foods.htm One of the people on the FB group there put together a list of CKD/diabetes friendly foods. Some of the Royal Canin kidney diets are over 20% carbs. Neko ended up going to Canada West when she became more complicated, at that point up to stage 3/4 CKD. Internal medicine vet was fine with me not feeding special renal food.

 

Hello there,
( I’m still not sure how to do replies yet. I’m somewhat used to the way The feline CRF site works and I can see this definitely works differently. Sorry if this frustrating to folks….)

- the only dry food Chavvie gets is 5 dental kibble + about 10 very small round kidney kibble: this is first thing in the morning. Like he eats them all within 2 minutes probably, though they are scattered about… Is this amount of carb/dry enough to be bad for his blood sugar. Should I be spacing these?

- additionally, on this same dry subject: I assume I would continue to do the dental 5 because they are quite essential for his teeth, but should I be buying diabetic kibble for these little treats? or is it a small enough amount not to be concerned?
I know I have a very low priority question here with everything else. But thank you so much for your responses and of course
Gina and Chavvie

 

Diabetic kibble are not low carb, in fact you'll see they are called dietetic food, not diabetic.

I can't answer the questions on kidney kibble or dental kibble without know the brands.

 

- hills t/d I believe is what the dental kibble is called (it is shaped for their teeth, forcing them to bite on their back molars)

- The teeny ones are royal Canin renal .

I guess by their very dry nature they are Carby?

Many thanks
Gina

 

t/d are 31% carbs, royal canin renal I'm not sure, but even the wet foods are considered high carbs. Dry will be even higher. If you can find hard and larger pure meat treats (dehydrated, freeze dried or air dried), that might also help with his teeth. Or even just larger pieces of meat or gizzards can be good for teeth cleaning.

Anything that comes from the vet and is dry is carby, have yet to see an exception to that.

 

Hi again..

Ok, I guess I’ve got a limit one per day, I think he lives for these dry treats, pretty much :-(((.
I have chicken gizzards right now. I didn’t know if it was all right to just give him a whole one or do you think I should chop these things up or what? They are kind of like rectangular shaped??

thank you Wendy so much !!

 

You could try the gizzards cut to about t/d size.

You can buy all meat treats in almost all pet stores. Just look for one ingredient, the meat. They are more economical getting the dog size version if you find one he likes. Most go nuts for the freeze dried chicken. Lots of other protein options out there two if there are food allergies.

 

I took your advice immediately, and plated out a whole gizzard. I poked my head in the bedroom a minute later, and he had downed the whole thing! He’s very pleased

I have a whole bag of these, they are raw from Savon foods, should I be cutting them up Wendy? as you said above?

 

I guess it’s not any good if you swallowed it whole?

 

lol he* not you!

 

You do want to observe if he's chewing them. Swallowing whole doesn't help the teeth. I very lightly poached gizzards, to get rid of bacteria, and gave smaller portions than a whole one.

 

Hello folks,

I hope I’m doing this right as far as threads, posting, etc!

I am reaching out please to try to get just even some perspective on what’s going on with Chavvie:

- I have not done another bloodwork yet. So on March 2, we had the glucosamine at 319 and blood-glucose at 13.

- since then, with the wonderful help of this website, he is now on Purina pro Plan DM, Weruva pates, I’ve almost totally eliminated even his couple of kibble daily treats. I think I’ve given him one dental treat, broken up and put in his food rolling ball. Couple chx hearts, couple dry meat bits.
- eliminated all the Purina hydra care, though it clearly was not causing the problem, which is what you folks indicated here ( as a sidenote, it sure is frustrating to learn that the vets are much more limited assistance than I would’ve otherwise thought?? the two of them both seem to think the hydra care was the culprit,?? Denial or something! )

- so, he is definitely having very minimal carbs, ( I have chosen not to get the blood metre just yet as I do not expect him to be compliant, he is a brute, )

- starting last August, he began to pee on the bed with me in it : he steps up onto me in the same manner as though he is going to do the nose to nose cuddling, but then he lets the bladder go. He has done this more during the last few days, I have to admit it is a real problem. (The vet also thought this was the result of me over hydrating him due to kidney concern. I thought she was confusing causing effect because I was only hydrating him due to his time spent at the water dish )

- that vet is now retired! . So his longtime vet is gone on very short notice, but I actually have a gut feeling that might not be a bad thing. I have a connection made with a new vet for bloodwork etc scheduled for April 8. But, depending on what you folks advise, I might take him back to the same clinic. It would be a different vet as I think I could get him in sooner than April 8)

- lately then and today, some of the urine strips look extremely close to normal in color. It seems to me that these strips occur when it has been a long time since he has eaten, ie, 5+ hours.
- when I get a urine say 1-3 hrs after significant food intake, often, the colour will be quite close to normal blue, and just a certain percentage of the square like 25% max. will be a very slight tan smattering of colour….
- since getting fully lower carb on the food, I don’t think I have seen a urine test as brown. I really only remember him having one that looked frighteningly tan. Normally, they are still very much blue or slightly green

- The big thing here is that he is obsessed with food. Also, since seeing sugar in the urine, I am trying to feed him more times a day smaller amounts, but I am loathe to get up in the middle of the night. So he does end up going for about nine hours without anything

But last night, he woke me up in the middle of the night sitting beside me, meowing, and I got up and fed, as I am very scared that he is not getting his food!

- and I have had a hard time with my own stress level with him being so food pursuing, as I get very terrified that he is not getting his food inside his body

- bear with me here, I’m almost finished, but here is the thing — he has been in this food seeking behaviour for well over a year with all very good blood glucose readings throughout (bloodwork done, every few months for kidney) - I originally thought perhaps he was developing thyroid. Now the food hunger worse right now, but I’m also aware that he likes these new foods far better than he liked his prior foods which were high carb, and they were kidney formulas.

- now his energy is relatively normal, he is out on the porch hunting mice, he does not run around like he used to. The other thing is his weight has not changed. I do have a digital scale from the neighbour and check it.

- I am desperately trying to lower his calories, but when I feel he might be starving this is not translating for me.. that said even right now, his daily calories are definitely not exceeding 200. I am trying for more like 180

also, if anybody happens to have any advice on this peeing on the bed. Thank goodness his urine is dilute. Otherwise I don’t know what I would’ve done. One keeps thinking that this or that will work but it is not. On average he did does this every 10 to 14 days but in the last week I think he has done it about four times even yesterday doing it twice within a few hours.

I am sorry to be so long, I think you understand .. thanks very much

 

If you can get his diabetes better under control, that might help with the peeing on the bed. Peeing out of the box is usually due to something medical or a behaviour issue. This is a common question for vets - they may be able to help you there.

As for getting blood sugar better under control, the best way to do it is home testing. We've had lots of difficult cats here that have been home tested. Tips and videos in this post: Hometesting Links and Tips including a video towards the end of how to test a fractious cat. Once my Neko got regulated, she wasn't peeing more than 2-3 times total per day.