He's going to die,

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Please , please help me. My cat has had BG over 600 for 2 months, he's getting weak. We started with vetsilin and then the human N something. We started at .50 units for 2 weeks then 1 unit for 2 more weeks on vetsilin. Then changed to the N one. After 4 weeks and up to 2 units, they switched him to Prozinc. We continued this at 2.5 units. It's been almost 2 months and a gradual increase to 3.5, now he says go to 4 units. My cat is going to die, I missed, fur shot a dose 2 weeks ago and didn't give it again, the next morning I tested and he was 550. I was so excited I didn't give his morning dose. It was still a number at 560 when I got home. I use a human meter it seems more accurate than the purple animal one I bought, but doesn't read over 600. My vet doesn't understand why it would go lower but insists he needs insulin. I gave him his 3.5 reluctantly with food and three hours later back over 600 although is was back to five the next morning. I had to board him this past weekend and he was over 600 with the vet curve. His Cushing test was negative, no key tones in his urine. He is 17 and this was they think brought on by a streroid injection for his itching. He's had ear infections on and off the last few years but we just went 2 weeks on steroid free ear meds and antibiotics. His kidneys are old, but not bad enough to be causing insulin resistance. I'm giving 100ml sub Q fluids every other day to keep him feeling good. I found this sight last night at 1am. I can't sleep well, my cat is going to die if something doesn't happen fast. I read here somewhere that if we started to high a dose the BG will never go down. We started at 2 with prozinc because that's what we had worked up to with the other 2 insulins not make any difference at all. He's eating the Royal Canin and another vet glucose wet food . I give him a whole little can twice a day with his shot or half of the big can. Being desperate last night I gave him 4.5 units. This morning it was 537 , I only gave him 1 unit this morning after reading something about maybe we missed his happy place with this type insulin , tonight at 5pm it is 540. I gave him 1 untit again instead of the 4 units we have worked up to . Please I don't know which way to go, I'm broke on all this food and tests , full geriatric profile blood work and on that his BG was 961 and this insulin is not cheap, and it's not made any difference. I thought he couldn't see the morning after boarding at the clinic for the weekend, but his site is okay now. All I know is he was over 600 at that time as well. He's getting weak, can anyone help us , please tell me what to do to get this down.
 
Welcome! Take a deep breath, you’ve come to the right place. I’m glad you’re home testing. Please set up our spreadsheet, it will help us see what’s going on. Here are the instructions, but if you need help, let us know and we’ll do it for you
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/fdmb-spreadsheet-instructions.130337/
How long ago was the steroid shot? Many of the vet recommended diabetic foods are actually high in carbs. You can save some money by feeding a low carb over the counter food. Since there is some kidney problems you need one low carb and low phosphorus. We can help you find one he’ll like.
 
Diabetes sucks said:
Please , please help me. My cat has had BG over 600 for 2 months, he's getting weak. We started with vetsilin and then the human N something. We started at .50 units for 2 weeks then 1 unit for 2 more weeks on vetsilin. Then changed to the N one. After 4 weeks and up to 2 units, they switched him to Prozinc. We continued this at 2.5 units. It's been almost 2 months and a gradual increase to 3.5, now he says go to 4 units. My cat is going to die, I missed, fur shot a dose 2 weeks ago and didn't give it again, the next morning I tested and he was 550. I was so excited I didn't give his morning dose. It was still a number at 560 when I got home. I use a human meter it seems more accurate than the purple animal one I bought, but doesn't read over 600. My vet doesn't understand why it would go lower but insists he needs insulin. I gave him his 3.5 reluctantly with food and three hours later back over 600 although is was back to five the next morning. I had to board him this past weekend and he was over 600 with the vet curve. His Cushing test was negative, no key tones in his urine. He is 17 and this was they think brought on by a streroid injection for his itching. He's had ear infections on and off the last few years but we just went 2 weeks on steroid free ear meds and antibiotics. His kidneys are old, but not bad enough to be causing insulin resistance. I'm giving 100ml sub Q fluids every other day to keep him feeling good. I found this sight last night at 1am. I can't sleep well, my cat is going to die if something doesn't happen fast. I read here somewhere that if we started to high a dose the BG will never go down. We started at 2 with prozinc because that's what we had worked up to with the other 2 insulins not make any difference at all. He's eating the Royal Canin and another vet glucose wet food . I give him a whole little can twice a day with his shot or half of the big can. Being desperate last night I gave him 4.5 units. This morning it was 537 , I only gave him 1 unit this morning after reading something about maybe we missed his happy place with this type insulin , tonight at 5pm it is 540. I gave him 1 untit again instead of the 4 units we have worked up to . Please I don't know which way to go, I'm broke on all this food and tests , full geriatric profile blood work and on that his BG was 961 and this insulin is not cheap, and it's not made any difference. I thought he couldn't see the morning after boarding at the clinic for the weekend, but his site is okay now. All I know is he was over 600 at that time as well. He's getting weak, can anyone help us , please tell me what to do to get this down.
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He needs what he needs. I would continue with the 4 units. Don't reduce... It seems he needs it and that there's some glucose toxicity going on. He may need to be increased for a while until you find his breakthrough dose.

As far as getting weak, so you mean muscle wasting? If so are you giving b12 for the neuropathy? How much does your cat weigh? It doesn't sound like he's getting enough food.

I'll tag some ProZinc dosing regulars

@Rachel @Kris & Teasel
 
It's going to be okay! You're in exactly the right place and I'm sure we can help you. Setting up the spreadsheet that Sharon mentioned will really help us to help you. Most likely he just needs more insulin and that is OKAY. As Janet says, cats need what they need. It's the same with humans, so it's not a bad thing. So you worked your way up to 4 units gradually? I'd stick with that for now too. I would really suggest getting some mid cycle tests...can you do that tomorrow or do you need to wait for the weekend? Anything you can get is helpful, but if you can grab something anywhere between 5 and 7 hours after a shot, that will help tell us how low he is going. That's is really important data because it shows us if he's getting good numbers at the lowest point of the insulin or not.

We'd definitely love to help you out! We've seen plenty of cats in high numbers before and we've helped get them down. We're here to help!
 
Sharon14 said:
Welcome! Take a deep breath, you’ve come to the right place. I’m glad you’re home testing. Please set up our spreadsheet, it will help us see what’s going on. Here are the instructions, but if you need help, let us know and we’ll do it for you
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/fdmb-spreadsheet-instructions.130337/
How long ago was the steroid shot? Many of the vet recommended diabetic foods are actually high in carbs. You can save some money by feeding a low carb over the counter food. Since there is some kidney problems you need one low carb and low phosphorus. We can help you find one he’ll like.
Click to expand...
I'll have to find out how long ago the steroid injection was , I'm going to guesss about 4 months ago. Then his weight started dropping fast, I thought he was in kidney failure, I couldn't get him hydrated for anything so I took him in to to vet. They did the bloodwork and kidney were a little elevated but nothing to be concerned about , but he said he was diabetic. He's an outside cat, never been overweight so they blame the steroid. His current food is prescription diet Hills MD / Glucose/ weight management. I only gave him 1 unit tonight to see what he looks like in the morning, do you also suggest going back to 4 units in the morning?
 
Hills prescription glucose/weight management. He's never been over weight, he's an outside cat . In a fenced yard with his own 8x10 insulated and heated and furnished cat house , because we used to live far from a Highway and now we are close to a road and have coyotes come around a lot, he's skin and bones now, from 8 or 9 pounds to 6.
 
Rachel said:
It's going to be okay! You're in exactly the right place and I'm sure we can help you. Setting up the spreadsheet that Sharon mentioned will really help us to help you. Most likely he just needs more insulin and that is OKAY. As Janet says, cats need what they need. It's the same with humans, so it's not a bad thing. So you worked your way up to 4 units gradually? I'd stick with that for now too. I would really suggest getting some mid cycle tests...can you do that tomorrow or do you need to wait for the weekend? Anything you can get is helpful, but if you can grab something anywhere between 5 and 7 hours after a shot, that will help tell us how low he is going. That's is really important data because it shows us if he's getting good numbers at the lowest point of the insulin or not.

We'd definitely love to help you out! We've seen plenty of cats in high numbers before and we've helped get them down. We're here to help!
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Yes we've worked up gradually, but it's been with 3 different insulins now. I thought maybe if we had started the prozinc at 1 unit it might have worked. I read somewhere if you gave to much it would never come down. Before reading that someplace I had given him 4.5 and then I got the 500's this am , then I only gave him 1. After work it was still 500's so I only gave him 1 again to see if it goes lower. But if you all think 4 is okay, I'll do it. I asked the vet since it's so high why don't we just give 4.5, that a 1 unit jump, but he said not to jump the gun, all I can think about is alll the damage that is being done to other organs while we are playing around with half units all this time for levels over 750 .
 
While he’s unregulated he’ll need more food because they can’t process their food properly, so you need to feed them more. As I said, the prescription foods are a bit higher in carbs than we like. They are also very expensive, so switching to a more affordable option will help you both. As high as his numbers are 4u is probably ok. Are you testing before food and shot as well as mid cycle?
 
Hi and welcome!

Take a big breath there are lots of very experienced people here that can help you and this is a very slow process it can take a long time to get a cat regulated so you will need to have a lot of patience

Like people diabetic cats need to watch what they eat so you need to start switching him to a diabetic friendly diet, with a little bit of luck you can do it fast but if not a gradual change will be ok, here's a list we use that can help you find some food that he likes and that is ok with you too (this is the link http://catinfo.org/docs/CatFoodProteinFatCarbPhosphorusChart.pdf) and low in phosphorus to help his kidneys, you have pick one that is under 10% carbohidrates (carbs) and under 200 in phosphorus

Since you mentioned he has some kidney issues, It would also help if you could post some of his lab results so that people here can get a better idea of what's going on
 
JanetNJ said:
He needs what he needs. I would continue with the 4 units. Don't reduce... It seems he needs it and that there's some glucose toxicity going on. He may need to be increased for a while until you find his breakthrough dose.

As far as getting weak, so you mean muscle wasting? If so are you giving b12 for the neuropathy? How much does your cat weigh? It doesn't sound like he's getting enough food.

I'll tag some ProZinc dosing regulars

@Rachel @Kris & Teasel
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Before this all started he was an 8 lb cat , now he's a bone with skin pulled over he was 6 lbs, maybe 5 now, I didn't ask the vet , he's never said anything about any B12, he will definitely eat, but I thought he's only supposed to get food at shot time. I had dry Royal canine glucose balance down the whole time and a few weeks ago I read that dry was bad . So he's not free feeding anymore.
 
Sharon14 said:
While he’s unregulated he’ll need more food because they can’t process their food properly, so you need to feed them more. As I said, the prescription foods are a bit higher in carbs than we like. They are also very expensive, so switching to a more affordable option will help you both. As high as his numbers are 4u is probably ok. Are you testing before food and shot as well as mid cycle?
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Yes , testing before food, if I check him right now it's been 3 1/2 hours since meal and shot. I ordered 30 cans of fancy feast classic from chewy last night, turkey and chicken pate, can he it that?
 
Veronica & Babu-chiri said:
Hi and welcome!

Take a big breath there are lots of very experienced people here that can help you and this is a very slow process it can take a long time to get a cat regulated so you will need to have a lot of patience

Like people diabetic cats need to watch what they eat so you need to start switching him to a diabetic friendly diet, with a little bit of luck you can do it fast but if not a gradual change will be ok, here's a list we use that can help you find some food that he likes and that is ok with you too (this is the link http://catinfo.org/docs/CatFoodProteinFatCarbPhosphorusChart.pdf) and low in phosphorus to help his kidneys, you have pick one that is under 10% carbohidrates (carbs) and under 200 in phosphorus

Since you mentioned he has some kidney issues, It would also help if you could post some of his lab results so that people here can get a better idea of what's going on
Click to expand...
Thank you, what food do you recommend, I have heard fancy feast classic is a good one
 
First, SLOW DEEP BREATHS - SLOOOOOW.....sing 2 rounds of Row Row Row your boat <---and I'm SERIOUS! Just do it!!! It will help you calm down for a minute.

Is this right:
He's on Prozinc
You're feeding both Glycobalance wet and dry
You have used both Vetsulin and N
You are testing before each shot

How often in between are you testing and are you testing sometimes overnight too?
 
Diabetes sucks said:
Thank you, what food do you recommend, I have heard fancy feast classic is a good one
Click to expand...

Yes Fancy Feast Pates are good BUT when you change from the Royal Canin, you MUST test lots because the difference in the carb counts is huge.

That food isn't going to do anything any better than Fancy Feast. It's for LOSING weight, not gaining it.
 
Did you sing? Seriously - now the ABC song - sing it! Regardless of how stupid you feel doing it - DO IT! You have to calm down a bit! We all get it - we've been scared and confused about OUR babies.
 
The Fancy Feast is fine for now, Since you say his kidneys are ok, but you may want to find a food lower in phosphorus in the future. Also you can feed him several times a day, not just at shot time. I fed my cat 4-6 times a day.
 
Squeaky and KT (GA) said:
First, SLOW DEEP BREATHS - SLOOOOOW.....sing 2 rounds of Row Row Row your boat <---and I'm SERIOUS! Just do it!!! It will help you calm down for a minute.

Is this right:
He's on Prozinc
You're feeding both Glycobalance wet and dry
You have used both Vetsulin and N
You are testing before each shot

How often in between are you testing and are you testing sometimes overnight too?
Click to expand...

Yes that's correct, but I read the dry was bad , I had that out for him all day, now he only gets some canned with his shot. I don't test him every single time, I attempted a cure test weekend before last and got trapped in the cat house by a huge wolf spider that stopped right in the freaking doorway way, allowing my cat to run across the yard and into the shed to eat some forbidden dry cat food, so I didn't finish the test. The curve the vet did last Friday was never under 600
 
Sharon14 said:
The Fancy Feast is fine for now, Since you say his kidneys are ok, but you may want to find a food lower in phosphorus in the future. Also you can feed him several times a day, not just at shot time. I fed my cat 4-6 times a day.
Click to expand...

Okay , I'm going to check his GC now and feed him , I'm sure he would thank you for that. What food do I need to buy ? I will buy it.
 
Fancy Feast is just fine for now, but you did mentioned some kidney issues so if you have any blood test results from the vet that can help us see how his kidneys are it would be very good that way later on we can help you find some diabetic and kidney friendly diet

Let's go with all this one step at a time get the test results you already have into the spreadsheet, you will be amazed how much it helps to know what's going on looking at all of them in an ordered and friendly way as the spreadsheet shows them and get some extra tests

And one more thing cats are more resilient than what most people give them credit, so hang in there slowly everything will get under control
 
Diabetes sucks said:
Okay , I'm going to check his GC now and feed him , I'm sure he would thank you for that. What food do I need to buy ? I will buy it.
Click to expand...

OKAY ! Wednesday night I gave 4.5 units, this morning it was 537. I gave one unit this morning and after work, 12 hours later it was 540, now I just checked 3.5 hours after 1 unit and it's 438 ! It's getting lower on 1 unit it looks like. How is that possible? And he was extremely happy to get more food ! He says thank you
 
Could you go ahead and remove the 911? We use that for medical emergencies like hypoglycemic crisis.

It makes our hearts skip a few beats anytime we see it.

I want you to look in my signature under "China White's Profile".....You will see two very different pictures of the same cat. (you have to click on the 2nd picture to see the whole thing)

That's how far back these kitties can come with the right diet, the right insulin and the help of the great people here!!
 
My thoughts - I suspect your cat may be transient diabetic from the steroid shot and doesn't need any insulin. From everything you've said, it all fits with a badly overdosed cat. When you give less insulin, his pancreas is working but the liver keeps dumping extra sugars trying to deal with extra insulin.

Can you test for ketones? It's a little plastic 'stick' with a pad on the end that you run thru his urine. I don't now if you've been told about doing that.

ETA: I going to throw this out for discussion. Labs are good altho' kidneys are a bit compromised but he's an elderly cat so that's to be expected.

My advice is to change to Fancy Feast pates or Friskies pates and completely skip the insulin shots for 2 days. Test each morning, mid-day and at night minimum. Also test for ketones daily. What I believe you'll see is those numbers come tumbling down. The reason to test for ketones is if he DOES need insulin, ketones can develop due to him not being able to use the food - insulin is what helps the body use the converted food.

This is just MY opinion - others please chime in...
 
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Veronica & Babu-chiri said:
Fancy Feast is just fine for now, but you did mentioned some kidney issues so if you have any blood test results from the vet that can help us see how his kidneys are it would be very good that way later on we can help you find some diabetic and kidney friendly diet

Let's go with all this one step at a time get the test results you already have into the spreadsheet, you will be amazed how much it helps to know what's going on looking at all of them in an ordered and friendly way as the spreadsheet shows them and get some extra tests

And one more thing cats are more resilient than what most people give them credit, so hang in there slowly everything will get under control
Click to expand...

I have his blood test result papers,
 
Chris & China said:
Could you go ahead and remove the 911? We use that for medical emergencies like hypoglycemic crisis.

It makes our hearts skip a few beats anytime we see it.

I want you to look in my signature under "China White's Profile".....You will see two very different pictures of the same cat. (you have to click on the 2nd picture to see the whole thing)

That's how far back these kitties can come with the right diet, the right insulin and the help of the great people here!!
Click to expand...

Yes, how do I take it off ?
 
Diabetes sucks said:
The curve the vet did last Friday was never under 600
Click to expand...

Tests done at the vet's office are unreliable.....they can test up to 200 points higher due to the stress of being at the vet's office (just like our blood pressure is higher at our doctor's office!)

If all the dose adjustments have been made based on vet curves, he's most likely getting too much insulin, but one way to know for sure is to start testing before every shot and getting at least 1 test mid-cycle on the AM cycle and at least a "before bed" test on the PM cycle.

Keep good data on our spreadsheet and we will be able to help you a lot more!!

And Welcome to the FDMB!! This is the best place you never wanted to be!!
 
Squeaky and KT (GA) said:
My thoughts - I suspect your cat may be transient diabetic from the steroid shot and doesn't need any insulin. From everything you've said, it all fits with a badly overdosed cat. When you give less insulin, his pancreas is working but the liver keeps dumping extra sugars trying to deal with extra insulin.

Can you test for ketones? It's a little plastic 'stick' with a pad on the end that you run thru his urine. I don't now if you've been told about doing that.
Click to expand...

The vet said there are no ketones although I don't know exactly what that means. I just checked him 3.5 hours after 1 unit v/s 4 and its down to 438. Is it too early for me to think this one unit is all he needs if it keeps dropping? I will check again at 5 am
 
Chris & China said:
Tests done at the vet's office are unreliable.....they can test up to 200 points higher due to the stress of being at the vet's office (just like our blood pressure is higher at our doctor's office!)

If all the dose adjustments have been made based on vet curves, he's most likely getting too much insulin, but one way to know for sure is to start testing before every shot and getting at least 1 test mid-cycle on the AM cycle and at least a "before bed" test on the PM cycle.

Keep good data on our spreadsheet and we will be able to help you a lot more!!

And Welcome to the FDMB!! This is the best place you never wanted to be!!
Click to expand...

A headache made me have to sit up at 1am this morning, that's when I typed in something about the highest insulin level for a cat and came across your website. I will start filling the sheet out tomorrow! Thank you all so so much !
 
Ketones can develop at any time.

Diabetes sucks said:
Is it too early for me to think this one unit is all he needs if it keeps dropping?
Click to expand...

Since your insulin is a 'single cycle' insulin, no it's not too early to think 1 unit or even LESS or he doesn't even need it at all. Do the spreadsheet, put in numbers - that will tell us a lot.

HUGS!
 
Chris & China said:
We look forward to seeing your "extra sweet" kitty's picture too!!
Click to expand...

You probably won't, when this all first started and nothing was changing, I shaved both side of his back because my vet thought I had to be missing my shots. I was sure I wasn't and knew if I did. His hairs growing back nice, but he's sooo skinny , he looks pitiful.
 
Squeaky and KT (GA) said:
Ketones can develop at any time.



Since your insulin is a 'single cycle' insulin, no it's not too early to think 1 unit or even LESS or he doesn't even need it at all. Do the spreadsheet, put in numbers - that will tell us a lot.

HUGS!
Click to expand...

I will try to figure out that sheet tomorrow, I get up for work at 4am. Thank you all HUGE ! I have been worried sick for months. I think I might sleep all night . Good night my new friends ! ❤️
 
Chris & China said:
Did you look at China when she was first diagnosed? She was a walking skeleton....her hair was oily, dirty and awful looking.

Compare it to the 2nd picture.....several months after I joined here!

You can always change it as improvements are made!
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Yes ! I saw her ! My cat also got very oily , when I bathed him all the hair started coming off his tail, I thought I was going to faint
 
Our first vet told me that "insulin is a hassle.....feed her this expensive (and crappy) prescription food and she may live another 4 months"

That was over 5 years ago

Our kitties can be very resilient
 
Diabetes sucks said:
Yes ! I saw her ! My cat also got very oily , when I bathed him all the hair started coming off his tail, I thought I was going to faint
Click to expand...
The hair will improve when the numbers improve. I don't think 1 unit will be enough but I'm glad your seeing downward movement. The food you were feeding was not good for a diabetic. I'm so glad you're switching to fancy feast classic.
 
Rachel said:
Good morning Annette! How are you and Queed today?
Click to expand...

Not good, he can tell time you know, he starts talking about 4:30, and it was quite. He was up and walking around, but his glucose is over 600 so I gave him the 4units. I just don't understand, if prozinc lasts 12 hours and he was 540 at five pm and down to 438 three hours( 8:30pm) after 1 unit and cat food, why is it over 600 now at 5am. I really thought after those one unit injections and seeing an actual number was going to work. I guess not. I don't know if I can access this site with my phone from work, I'll try. I'll be back home by 4pm. Have a good day everyone.
 
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