Hershey - Are high #'s still from Sat pm?

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Doug N Libby

Very Active Member
Was hoping someone could take a quick look at Hershey's SS. He had that 43 Sat night, so I don't know if these 400's are normal after that. I'm guessing we should just stay the course for another shot or two (at least) but wanted more experienced eyes to confirm or let me know what else we need to consider doing.

Thanks a bunch!

Libby (and Hershey, too!)
 
Libby,
Usually the bounce takes 2, sometimes 3 cycles to "clear" so it should have done so. It doesn't look like the numbers since then mid-cycle have been low enough to make bouncing continue. Looks like Hershey is probably going down to the high 100's at nadir?
This might indicate a small increase is needed, but if so, I would make it a small increase, like to 1.0 for the next dose. If you were to shoot at AMPS tomorrow the 1 unit, is someone going to be around to get a reading around +5 maybe to see how low it goes? It shouldn't make a huge difference, but anytime a dose gets changed, it's great if you can "see" what sort of activity follows.

The 28th sticks out just because it's "odd" compared to most other days. In hindsight, it looks like we could have suggested you stick to dose on the following morning instead of suggesting you drop down to .5, but in that case, we were all concerned to "insulin sensitivity" after the low green numbers. The sensitivity thing is probably an ECID thing, and it could be that Hershey isn't as senisitive after lows as other kitties. But whenever possible, we err on the side of caution, which is a good thing.

Anybody else have any ideas?

Carl
 
Thanks, Carl. I kind of feel like I'm monopolizing the forum, but I was getting worried about those 400's and wanting to get him some relief. 3am is his shot time; we'll be here until at least mid-afternoon, so we can get readings whenever we need to, multiple times even.

Going to take a nap before shot time - will check back before we give his next dose.

Thanks, again!!!!
 
Libby, you aren't monopolizing! This is the busiest that PZI has been since I arrived last summer. It's a lot of fun lately!

Carl
 
AMPS (534) more than a little scary to me, so we're going with the 1u. Will plan to test ... maybe the +4, but definitely +5. nailbite_smile
 
+5 (144) and +6 (81). He seemed extra hungry at +6, so skipped walking and got to the FOOD! Wondering if we can presume that 81 is nadir or should be we test again, just in case. If we should test again, when???

Thoughts???

Thanks!!
 
I would test again in 30-45 minutes to make sure this isn't a long duration cycle and that he doesn't continue to drop.

I think the "picture" on Hershy is still evolving. He may be a kitty who doesn't bounce as much as others and he may be one who is very sensitive to dose tweaking. I know it is frustrating to go from the 500s to the 50s but the good news is that he isn't stuck in the high numbers. Patience is hard but I do think we will figure him out. He responds well to PZI. We just have to figure out how to make it work best for him.

And with a kitty who dances to his own beat, posting and getting options is the only way to go. Keep asking questions. We'll do this together- it's how this family works.
 
He was fed at +6 and it's :15 until +7, so you're thinking we should retest now? or wait until +7? I had just been sitting here talking this through with Doug...I know food should raise the BG, but his food is low carb (<7%) so it shouldn't raise it that much and not for that long, is that correct? I guess that's why we sometimes see lower numbers later in the cycle? If so, then we may see something lower than 81 even at, say... +9?

(btw - The little rascal made it to Oreo's bowl, again. It wasn't for long and they both eat Wellness <7% carbs, so that's good, but it means he ate a little more than we had planned.)

We were thinking of retesting +8, but you're thinking before then. So, if I don't hear differently, we'll go ahead and retest at +7 (which is now ~:12 out).

Had trouble getting a blood sample at +6. Is there a connection between BG and ease/difficulty getting a sample? I found it much more difficult Sat pm when his BG was 43 and then this am when it was 81.

Thanks, Carl and Sue, it's comforting to know there are other eyes on my boy!

Libby (and Hershey, too!)
 
Unfortunately, BG doesn't effect ease or hindrance of testing. If only our cats were that easy to understand! ;-)

I keep trying to find correlations, too. Dr. Lisa posted once, about all the variables that can effect BG numbers, and I was floored. So many variables! As long as we're being as consistent as we can, and dose based on our trend of numbers, it's the best we can do. :smile:

You guys are doing great! :RAHCAT (There I go cheer leading again! LOL)
 
My theory is that you get the number when it works for you. If it is after food, then indicate that on the Remarks line so you can look back at some point and maybe use the info.

Since your motivation today is probably to be sure he is not headed down, we'll have to look at the number and think he is low with the food, or he is okay with the food or maybe the food is bringing it up. We aren't searching for a true nadir; just making sure he is safe?
 
Thanks, Teresa, I was hoping...oh, well...back to the drawing board ;-)

Well, here we are at +7 and he's down to 61, even after eating at +6...guess we should check again... in an hour or is that too long since he dropped 20 in the last hour?

Guess I'm getting to be a worrier...don't like those 500's but don't like those 61's and possibly falling, either...just can't be pleased...
 
While we all hope for those gorgeous green numbers, they also put me on edge too. "Is he going to go too low? How fast is he dropping? Do I need to worry?" I think we've all had these thoughts. :-D It's a good time to remember to breathe, and test again in 20-30 minutes just to be sure and aware. No need to worry or panic. Even if he does drop lower, you know there are things to do to ease him back up again (gravy, karo, etc.). Remember, it takes food a bit to show in the bloodstream, and as we're sitting here fretting, it's making it's way there. :-D

Keep us posted. You are not alone. :-D
 
And as you can guess, the food question is ECID. Most cats, regardless of the low carb count, go up after food. (I bet Carl has a scientific explanation for that. :mrgreen: )

The one thing you can use, at some point when you are at very low doses, is that when the low carb food starts lowering his numbers, it can mean his pancreas is helping out. Not sure if that is the reason today. But I am wondering if the tweaking the doses is not changing the numbers as much as his pancreas joining the party.

Normally, you would think a longer duration at lowering numbers is too much insulin or pancreas. Since you just barely changed the dose, I am wondering about pancreas. BTW, this Good News, if right. It does complicate the dance a little.

61 is an okay number. We would not "expect" him to dive at this point in the cycle, but I would take another test in 30 minutes or so.
 
+7.5 is 150, so it looks like all is well? Dropped 20 in an hour...rose 89 in :30??? I don't know, but I know Hershey will be glad to have a break from testing. Bless his heart, he lays there so nice and still, but his breathing more than doubles. :cry:

Unless y'all think otherwise, we won't plan to test again until PMPS just before 3pm. Sound like a plan?

Thanks!
 
It is your call, but I would test at +9 or +10 also. I have always been told that a higher +10 reading than your next preshot, is a true indicator of rebound. This might be a good cycle to confirm if the high preshots you are getting are rebound numbers. They sure appear that way to me. I also suggest this, due to the 89 point rise in 30 minutes. Just my thoughts....

But, as far as safety for Hershey....you need no more test this cycle!

Good Luck!
 
The 89 hike is the food showing up, and I agree there shouldn't be any need to worry about hypo today. :-D

I do like Kim's idea. Would be handy information to have. :-D
 
I'm late again. I'm glad Hershey is coming up nicely.

I hate to be the doom sayer but you are almost guarenteed to bounce from today, that is almost a 90% drop, so don't be alarmed to see another 500, it will come down. We will get it figured out.

I'm thinking that Sue might be right about his P showing up now and then to throw off our best layed plans.

Give him some extra scritches for being a good boy. cat_pet_icon
 
Sue and Oliver (GA) said:
And as you can guess, the food question is ECID. Most cats, regardless of the low carb count, go up after food. (I bet Carl has a scientific explanation for that. :mrgreen: )

The one thing you can use, at some point when you are at very low doses, is that when the low carb food starts lowering his numbers, it can mean his pancreas is helping out. Not sure if that is the reason today. But I am wondering if the tweaking the doses is not changing the numbers as much as his pancreas joining the party.

Normally, you would think a longer duration at lowering numbers is too much insulin or pancreas. Since you just barely changed the dose, I am wondering about pancreas. BTW, this Good News, if right. It does complicate the dance a little.

61 is an okay number. We would not "expect" him to dive at this point in the cycle, but I would take another test in 30 minutes or so.
Lol, actually carl does! But it will have to wait till later when I can type with more than one finger... simply put, ALL food will raise BG, even zero carb food. And it should take 60-90 minutes to do so unless it is a liquid sugar like honey or karo or gravy which go straight thru the tummy to the small intestine.
Carl
 
Just did +10 test (353) - argghh

Carl - When you do give us that scientific explanation, please use small words - my brain is already on overload. :smile:

Robin - I was afraid that much of a drop might signal more high numbers to come. ugh - I never have been a patient person, certainly not a patient mom when my kids are sick. I do have confidence that "we'll" (meaning y'all advised/us administering) get it. :-D

Kim - Thankfully, the +10 (353) was not higher than the AMPS (534), not sure what that means, though.

Teresa - That 89 hike was Hershey's way of supporting what you said
Teresa and Poopy said:
Remember, it takes food a bit to show in the bloodstream, and as we're sitting here fretting, it's making it's way there. :-D

But now, I have no idea what to do about the next shot...

Libby
 
I asked Carl to join in some brainstorming about Hershey tonight when he gets home from work. Hope Robin can join in also. Today's cycle was lovely - nadir little late better than early, not too low - except for the high amps. We need to think about whether we should work with the dose or the schedule, or whether we need to consider the pancreas into the picture.

We'll do the best we can, but I do think it will be after your pmps. So pmps will probably be done without his input, but maybe Robin is around. Tonight hopefully we can figure out a plan.
 
We don't shoot a bounce (increasing the insulin because of the higher bg #, when the bounce #'s clear you could have too much insulin on board). A good general rule would be to stay with the last good dose given.

But I'm wondering if he isn't a little sensative to the insulin right now with some of the lower numbers you have been getting, if it were me I would go with .8u, no matter what crazy high number you get at PMPS, unless of course it is lower.

I won't be around later tonight so I wanted to put in my vote now. :smile:
 
Thanks, Robin. We're an hour away from his PMPS... :?

I remember once on Laverne & Shirley - Squiggy said something like your brain can only hold so much, then when you learn something new it pushes something else out. Feeling like I'm close to capacity trying to take all of this in...so glad to have friends on board!
 
I like a .8 as long as he is continuing up and that you can be around to monitor. I think one of the issues for us is that Hershey gets such different numbers on the same dose, or a dose just .1 either way......

Don't feel like you are not being able to keep up because of any of your limitations. He is really changing fast! I think his tune is a jitterbug.
 
PMPS (356) - so it rose 3 in 2 hrs and the 2 hrs before it more than doubled...go figure...

Time to feed and shoot - sounds like y'all are thinking .8u?
 
That is interesting - I expected 400+. Like this number better. Yes, .8 sounds good. You have given it at numbers lower and he has been okay. Guess it will be another indication whether we can use his history to figure doses.
 
Yes, I was afraid it would be 500+, esp since this is the first time he's given me any real problems about walking. (Oh - let me back up - he only made it around 19X and it took ~:12 to do that, with LOTS of kitty mouth! His eyes also looked a little foggy, like before when his numbers went so high. I figured he just felt really bad and let him stop.)

.8u it is - I usually test at +6. Should I add test times for tonight? (I think I need to buy stock in the company that makes the test strips!)
 
Hummm, I was willing to bet some test strips that he would have been 500 but glad he isn't.

I can't wait to see how he does on the .8u.
 
Doug N Libby said:
AMPS (534) more than a little scary to me, so we're going with the 1u. Will plan to test ... maybe the +4, but definitely +5. nailbite_smile

You probably did but I need to ask....did you recheck that test to see if it was right?

Carl
 
No, Carl. We didn't, but since you're asking I guess we should've? :sad: It seemed like a large enough sample and since the +10 was (483) we went with it

PM +3 (323)
 
I'm just a fan of retesting really high or low numbers, but your logic is sound. It wasn't much of a stretch given the +10 number.

Carl
 
Lol, actually carl does! But it will have to wait till later when I can type with more than one finger... simply put, ALL food will raise BG, even zero carb food. And it should take 60-90 minutes to do so unless it is a liquid sugar like honey or karo or gravy which go straight thru the tummy to the small intestine.
Carl

OK, when I saw Sue's message, I asked myself "hey, how the heck does a cat's digestive system work anyway? where do the carbs go, and what makes the numbers go up?" All I heard was "uh, I dunno.." So I used everyone's favorite search engine and googled it!

After I followed a half dozen links, I found this jewel on page two or three on the "hit list".

http://maxshouse.com/feline_nutrition.htm Totally awesome site! Told me stuff I already knew in part, but learned a helluva lot. Some of it is over my head scientific and will require a 2nd or 4th look, but here's some good info:

Cats gulp their food, don't chew it much. Turns out that is because of the way their jaw works and their teeth are shaped. They have no side-to-side movement in their jaw, just up and down. And no really flat teeth, so they can't mush the food up in their mouths like people can, so just chew enough to get it down, and then the tummy takes over. Not really important to this discussion, but I found it pretty interesting!

Cats, like all animals, require six classes of nutrients: water, energy, protein, essential fatty acids, minerals, and vitamins. Cats do not have a dietary requirement for carbohydrates. The metabolic requirement for glucose in the cat is derived from protein (glucogenic amino acids) and fat (glycerol). Cats are adapted to a protein- fat-rich, carbohydrate-poor diet.
All animals have a metabolic requirement for glucose. Carnivores, such as the cat, convert glucogenic amino acids and glycerol to glucose for the maintenance of blood glucose, and therefore, have no established dietary requirement for carbohydrates.
In general, an absence of dietary carbohydrate in the feline diet will not affect blood glucose levels or cause an energy deficiency; this is because the body can use protein and the glycerol portion of fat for glucose production, and fat and protein for energy.
So, cats require NO carbs in order to survive. That doesn't mean we should all feed zero carb food, just that carbs are pointless to a kitty. They get all the glucose they need by converting protein or fat into sugars. That is what I meant (having just read this site) about ANY food is going to raise BG. When they digest their food, which takes place in the small intestine, there are enzymes there that turn protein and fat into "sugar", which then goes into their bloodstream. Normally, the pancreas would counteract that sugar by producing sufficient insulin. In a non-diabetic cat, since their system is working normally, you'd probably not see a noticeable increase in BG after eating, because the pancreas would be there in time to offset the increase. Make sense?

So then I thought "well, assuming there are some carbs in the food, where do those go? Do they just go straight to the bloodstream and make the BG go sky high?

Carbohydrates are nearly absent in the cat's natural diet. The cat obtains small amounts of carbohydrate through the stomach and intestines of her prey. Commercial dry foods, however, may contain as much as 45% - 50% carbohydrates. Since the cat metabolizes primarily fat and protein for energy, most of the excess carbohydrate is stored in the body as glycogen and fat. The primary adverse effect of excess carbohydrate is obesity. The effects of obesity are heart disease because of the increased workload on the heart; orthopedic problems are increased because of increased physical stress on the frame, leading to arthritis and early debilitation; diabetes mellitus, a condition in which the pancreas doesn't produce the amount of insulin that it should to help metabolize blood sugar, is one of the most common problems in obese cats; several liver disorders occur more frequently in overweight cats. Surprisingly, the deadliest one, hepatic lipidosis, happens when the cat stops eating. Changes in the operation of the liver cause fat to be deposited there, which eventually can shut down the liver altogether.
This next part is a little techy and contains words I can't pronounce, but bottom line is the last line....excess carbs go not only into the bloodstream, but are primarily stored as "fats".... Which kitty can then use for energy. A starving animal, for instance, will first utilize excess fat for survival, and when the fat is all gone, then they start consuming muscle, which should come as no surprise to sugarkitty beans, because we've seen how they quickly lose weight, sometimes even muscle mass, even though they are eating like pigs, due to the fact that their digestive system is all screwed up because their pancreas (among other organs) isn't working right.
In the cat's liver, gluconeogenic amino acids and fat in the diet are deaminated and converted to glucose for the maintenance of blood glucose levels. The cat has evolved to maintain normal blood glucose levels and health on a carbohydrate-free diet, a capacity inherited from her desert-dwelling ancestors. This ability is related to its different pattern of gluconeogenesis. In most animals, maximal gluconeogenesis for the maintenance of blood glucose levels occurs during the postabsorptive state, when dietary soluble carbohydrate is no longer available. However, carnivorous species, such as the cat, are similar to ruminant species in that they maintain a constant state of gluconeogenesis - the immediate use of gluconeogenic amino acids for the maintenance of blood glucose levels (these mechanisms are turned "on" and "off" in other animals).

There are differences between cats and omnivores in the relative importance of various gluconeogenic and carbohydrate-metabolizing pathways. Compared with omnivorous species, the cat has a high hepatic activity of the enzyme serine-pyruvate aminotransferase and low activity of the enzyme serine dehydratase. Thus the cat is able to convert the amino acid serine to glucose by a route that does not involve either pyruvate or serine dehydratase.

After glucose is absorbed into the body, it must be phosphorylated to glucose-6-phosphate before it can be metabolized. The liver of most omnivorous animals, including the domestic dog, has two enzymes that catalyze this reaction, glucokinase and hexokinase. Hexokinase is active when low levels of glucose are delivered to the liver, and glucokinase operates whenever the liver receives a large load of glucose from the portal vein. The feline liver has active hexokinase but does not have active glucokinase. Consequently, the rate of glucose metabolism in the liver of the cat cannot increase in response to high levels of soluble carbohydrate in the diet to the same degree as the rate in the liver of a species possessing both enzymes. Thus most of the carbohydrate in dry food ingested by the cat is converted and stored as fat.

The site also contains a great deal of information about dry vs. wet food, and how water consumption is affected depending on what Fluffy is eating. It says that a canned food diet supplies 95% of all the water a cat needs, which is why most people see a huge drop off in "kitty at the water bowl" when they switch and ditch the dry food. Bob almost never touches the water bowl anymore. Conversely, an all dry diet only supplies only 4% of their required water intake.
When fed canned food (80% moisture) with access to drinking water, cats obtain over 90% of their total water intake from the diet, whereas on dry food, 96% of the total water intake is obtained by drinking.

And the more calories they eat from all canned food, the less water they will need.
Canned diets contain enough water that cats consuming them rarely need to drink. Daily water needs, in milliliters, often are "guesstimated" as equal to the metabolizable energy requirement in kilocalories or approximately 60 ml/kg. Once the diet is consumed, oxidation of nutrients produces an additional 10 to 13 grams of water for each 100 kcal of metabolizable energy. Thus a 4 kg cat consuming a 240 kcal canned diet containing 78% moisture will consume 237 ml or 98% of its daily water need directly from the diet. Thus the cat needs to drink less than 1 oz. of additional water per day whereas a cat consuming a 240 kcal dry diet needs to drink over 7 oz. of water per day. This can be difficult becausecats are not naturally big drinkers. Feeding a canned diet containing 78% moisture virtually guarantees homeostatic control of water balance in the cat.

I didn't even quote 5% of the page here. There's a ton of nutritional information, like how to calculate fat/protein/carb percentages, what the vitamin requirements are, and why they need them... I could spend days reading it!


And last but not least, if the question "time to get from the food bowl to the litter box?" is ever the question on Final Jeopardy, the correct answer would be "What is 20 hours, Alex"!
From the small intestine, the food passes into the large intestine, which absorbs additional nutrients and also a substantial amount of the water remaining in the ingested food. The large intestine serves as a storage area for the solid material that is left over after the digestive process. This material--the feces--is eventually excreted from the cat's body, through its rectum and anus. This process normally takes about 20 hours in an adult cat.

OK, school is OUT!
Carl
 
Oh, I love it when you talk "scientific" :mrgreen:

Good info, worthy of a bookmark.

Now, what do you think about Hershey's numbers? (no rest for the wicked....)
 
As I sat here eating yummy chocolate cake and reading about stored fats ;-) ...I actually have that site bookmarked! Didn't understand much of what I read the first couple of times, but put it with the rest of my reading materials. Been thinking of printing out a lot of this stuff and putting it in sheet protectors in a binder for quick reference. (So sue me, until my baby graduated last June, I was a homeschool mom for 17 years :-D

You suggested retesting really high/low numbers. (We do retest really low numbers.) Can you use the same blood sample or do you have to prick again?

Also, I was reading on the big vs little drop of blood thread and you were talking about vein vs capillary hits and how the vein would bring a higher reading. Should I note the difference on the SS? I ask because a couple of times I've gotten really big drops of blood and don't want that to throw off the data.
 
Oh, I love it when you talk "scientific" :mrgreen:
Yep, I'm sort of like the Nutty Professor! :lol:

Now, what do you think about Hershey's numbers?

Well,
I think that they are both too high and too low lately. Looks like he reacts tremendously to the insulin, which is awesome.
I don't understand the AMPS. He shouldn't still be bouncy from the other night, and the numbers since then don't look low enough to keep him bouncing. And then today, he went almost as low, but didn't climb as high (compared to the green low 40s night on the 28th), and I would have expected to see a much higher PMPS tonight like everyone else did.
On the 28th, .8 into a 201 only dropped Hershey 140 points or so. Today, 1u dropped him 470??? Where's the logic? Ooops, sorry I asked. Dancing is not logical.
If this sort of thing keeps happening, then I would think it means "dose reduction"?

I'm looking for a pattern, like are the AMPS always higher or lower than the PMPS. But I don't see one. I guess the PM numbers are lower in general, but a lot of days they are fairly close, or the other way around. In general, it looks like he goes lower overnight, but it seems to be when the PMPS is lower than the AMPS, so that would be expected, right? Some days, although the low at night is lower, the actual drop during the day is bigger. (see 1/28, 1/30, 1/25, etc.). His nadir is kind of wonky too. Some days it looks like +4 or +5, then today he nadirs at +8? Hershey is a very confusing kitty!

Overall, it looks like .8 is his "best dose". Good drop, but usually not too much.

Carl
 
You suggested retesting really high/low numbers. (We do retest really low numbers.) Can you use the same blood sample or do you have to prick again?

Also, I was reading on the big vs little drop of blood thread and you were talking about vein vs capillary hits and how the vein would bring a higher reading. Should I note the difference on the SS? I ask because a couple of times I've gotten really big drops of blood and don't want that to throw off the data.

You can use the same sample if there's enough there after you switch to a new strip. Hershey would prefer that option!

You can note it on the SS for sure. When you do get a big drop, if you can manage it with a squirmy kitty, just try to put the strip "close" to the drop and sip from the edge. That might help the strip not getting flooded. I've read a lot, and think it's right also, that venal blood and flooded strips give you a higher number. I just wish there was some sort of feel for "how high is higher". I mean, is it 10 points, 50 points? I guess there's no real way to know for sure.

Carl
 
Carl,

AWESOME research!!! I love the science in it all. I think we should all get some kind honorary Doctorate Degree in Veterinary Medicine.

Good job!!!! Keep it coming!

I will have to agree on the vein blood drop being higher. i have done many vein pokes, unfortunetly, they do make a BIG difference in BG #'s. Mine are always higher by almost 50 to sometimes 100 pts. It's hard just getting the caps and not the vein. My cat has VERY LARGE vein's in his ear. I've noticed since i've done the caps it is much lower.

lori
 
Thanks! It was funny - this afternoon, Doug was looking at Hershey's SS and asking ME questions! :lol: I was like - all I can tell you is that it looks like his highs are too high and his low can be too low and his nadir should ideally be at +6, but you see it's all over the place. Other than that, read the current thread and post a question.

I felt much better early evening when I was catching my daughter up on Hershey's day. I told her when he was giving me a hard time about walking I thought he was feeling really bad and asked if she had noticed that sometimes his eyes looked...and she said, "foggy." I was like, YES, that's the word I used, but Daddy said they always look the same. She said, "No, sometimes he gives you that glazed look, like he's been eating too many doughnuts."

I have a question that probably has nothing to do with anything, but maybe y'all can give me a nudge in the right direction. A few years ago, Hershey started pulling out his hair, middle lower back, just about tail. We thought maybe it was fleas. Doug gave him a good bath and found nothing. Repeat. Then we thought maybe he was in pain, you may recall he had hip surgery in 2006. He used to have some 'bad' days where you could tell he was in discomfort, esp really cold or rainy days. Took him to the vet who didn't find anything wrong. I believe she gave him a cortisone shot, but Doug isn't for sure I'm remembering that part correctly. That didn't fix anything, either. So, we've just been living with it. I've been doing a lot of reading and found things like stress: new person/animal in the house (All people have been here since before Hershey and Oreo has been since 2006, so surely he's used to him by now.) and mental illness (I don't really want my kitty on psychiatric drugs.). Maybe an allergy or something? I don't know. It doesn't seem to bother him; it does get annoying cleaning up the hair, though.
 
She said, "No, sometimes he gives you that glazed look, like he's been eating too many doughnuts."

that's funny :lol:
I have a question that probably has nothing to do with anything, but maybe y'all can give me a nudge in the right direction. A few years ago, Hershey started pulling out his hair, middle lower back, just about tail. We thought maybe it was fleas. Doug gave him a good bath and found nothing. Repeat. Then we thought maybe he was in pain, you may recall he had hip surgery in 2006. He used to have some 'bad' days where you could tell he was in discomfort, esp really cold or rainy days. Took him to the vet who didn't find anything wrong. I believe she gave him a cortisone shot, but Doug isn't for sure I'm remembering that part correctly. That didn't fix anything, either. So, we've just been living with it. I've been doing a lot of reading and found things like stress: new person/animal in the house (All people have been here since before Hershey and Oreo has been since 2006, so surely he's used to him by now.) and mental illness (I don't really want my kitty on psychiatric drugs.). Maybe an allergy or something? I don't know. It doesn't seem to bother him; it does get annoying cleaning up the hair, though.
First thing that caught my eye was the "cortisone shot", because sometimes steroids can lead to the onset of diabetes. But if it was that long ago, probably not in this case. Apparently the incidence of steroid-induced diabetes can lead to quick remission in many cases, so I got excited there for a minute!
But when I read the whole paragraph, I thought "Mullet"! He's my civvie kitty. He's done that on and off for years, pulling his hair out, mostly around the base of the tail area. In his case, it was flea related. Found fleas, gave him Advantage I think. Then it turns out he's got an allergic reaction to THAT. So, had to get him some kind of shot for fleas and flea alergies, but this was several years ago, different vet, so no idea what they shot him with. It worked though. The habit went away for a couple of years, then we moved out here to the island. Around our house, there were some feral cats, so after years of being a mostly outside cat, Mullet had to spend all of his time in the house for months until the ferals were trapped and removed. When he suddenly became an "indoor" cat again, the behavior reappeared. The cause was "stress". He hates being stuck in the house, and his way of dealing with it was to become obsessive about grooming and plucking his hair out. When we were able to allow him "innie/outie" access again, the behavior stopped. There is some sort of psychological condition I read about in Health in the past few days that one of the symptoms is hair pulling, but I don't remember which thread it was in or what it was called... "Stress" would be my first guess, but no idea what he would be stressed about. I'd say the diabetes and treatment, but it sounds like this goes way beyond that time frame...
Carl
 
PM +6 (198) - hit a vein (I seem to be good at that.) but let the strip kind of hover and sip more than drown. 198 looked good to me! Don't know what it means for the 3am shot, though...

And, I got him to walk 41X (we made up for the lesser number at PMPS).

Thanks, y'all!!
 
PM +9 (96) - small drop of blood, hit capillary - YAY! Now I'm wondering what the AMPS will be in 3 hours...and how in the world to dose. Do we stay at .8u regardless or use Robin's sliding scale??

I hope someone is still up...
 
Doug tested AMPS (438) but it looked like large drop/drown, so retested and got (409). Still looked on the large side to me and Hershey seemed to be getting stressed, so we shot .8u. Was afraid to shoot .9 after PM of the 27th - shot .9 into (419).

Don't know - Sue said go with gut - Lori said vein shot sometimes raises hers 50 - 100 pts - Carl said he thought .8 was good dose for Hershey - Robin's sliding scale .9 if over 375, but if # could be off 50 - 100, that would put it in the 359-309 range and .8u dose. So, chose .8u so he could eat and we could all get some rest.

* And, now (within the last few days) Oreo has decided he doesn't want to bend down to eat, but he'll eat it if we spoonfeed him. That can't happen every meal. I wondered if he was maybe having problems breathing or something and that was making him not want to bend down, but he could always crouch down, which he doesn't seem inclined to do. (I don't notice any signs of breathing difficulty. He crouches other times, just not to eat.) Then, I thought maybe it was where the bowl was (although it's where he has always eaten), so we moved it and he did eat a little. Then, thought it was too thick, so added water. Too much water, added more food. Too cold (Hershey won't wait for his to be heated, eats it straight from the fridge.), so heated it. Haven't found an answer...Thinking maybe elevate the bowl? I don't know...and I hope this is making sense...running on fumes...

Thank you...and goodnight...
 
Doug N Libby said:
Don't know - Sue said go with gut - Lori said vein shot sometimes raises hers 50 - 100 pts - Carl said he thought .8 was good dose for Hershey - Robin's sliding scale .9 if over 375, but if # could be off 50 - 100, that would put it in the 359-309 range and .8u dose. So, chose .8u so he could eat and we could all get some rest.

I like your reasoning. :smile:
 
Try elevating the bowl? They sell bowls on stands at petsmart, but I didn't see them until Bob quit dancing. He probably would have liked one of them as he acted the same way at times.
Carl
 
Don't know - Sue said go with gut - Lori said vein shot sometimes raises hers 50 - 100 pts - Carl said he thought .8 was good dose for Hershey - Robin's sliding scale .9 if over 375, but if # could be off 50 - 100, that would put it in the 359-309 range and .8u dose. So, chose .8u so he could eat and we could all get some rest....

Oh, I am laughing but am sorry. One of the strengths of the board is that it is peer reviewed, but that does mean you won't be getting the same advice from everyone. I love to see your thought process and think the result was great.
 
+4 (109) +6 (229) +9 (380) (+9 was actually +8.5)

What in the world? Should we have gone with .9? Afraid of how high it will be at PMPS...
 
I think that the .8u was a good dose. The higher numbers today could be some bounce from the 96 last night but not too bad at all.

I think we should scratch the .9u off the scale for now.

I like your thinking out loud too. :-D
 
Thanks, Sue and Robin, for checking in on us. Glad to hear my thought pattern actually made sense in my sleepy stupor...that's not always the case and Doug will say something like, 'Where in the world did that come from?'

:YMSIGH: So, we'll stick with the .8 for now. But, the .8 gave us the (43) Sat pm, so who knows...I guess, maybe if preshot is that close to (200) again, back off the .8 for that dose? I feel like I keep messing up...the dry food...shooting too high/low (like the .8 into the 201) making regress instead of progress...kitties are so trusting that we'll do what's best for them...

I shudder to think what would've happened if we hadn't suggested home testing and had just gone with what the vet said. Start him 1 - 2u and bring him back every so often. Truly, I thank God for y'all every day and pray for y'all and your kitties and for comfort for those who have lost their kitties. Isn't it funny how quickly you feel like you know people?

Thanks, again, y'all!!
 
Aww you're so sweet. I have met some of the most amazing people here who have very quickly become friends, I've also had the pleasure of meeting in person 8 people from this site and they are even more amazing in person. It's hard to put into words how it felt to hug a complete stranger while you were embracing a dear friend that you have never seen before.

Use the scale as a guide when in doubt at lower PS numbers.

You're not messing up, it is all a part of learning the dance steps, pretty soon you will be dancing as gracefully as Fred and Ginger.
 
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