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Poleysmom

Member Since 2014
Help with my kittie! Napoleon is still urinating outside the box. Diagnosed 3 weeks ago today. now on 5 units bid and diabetic food which he isn't particularly happy about.

Suggestions please on symptom cessation and food that are high protein low carb.

Will get some Friskies Pate or Fancy Feast Classic. what others do you suggest?
 
Hi and welcome to the forum,
My kitty is still peeing outside the box too and honestly, for now, until he is regulated, there is nothing you can do. I have put puppy training pads in his usual spots and he has gravitated to using those. Not ideal but it saves your house.

I think you should take Mel's advice re your dosing - the 5u your vet told you to use is very high. My vet told me to start at 2u twice a day and I blindly followed her advice for 6 weeks until I decided to listen to the forum. 8 days later, he is doing better than he ever was.

By the way - the 911 icon is for use when your cat is in danger - ie you've given too much insulin and you need immediate help to save your cat. You give us a scare with a 911 tag when you're asking a question about peeing outside the box.

Could you go to your original post (above my comment here) and switch the 911 to none?

You will find this forum very helpful if you give it a chance.

Juliet and Silver
 
Has your vet ruled out arthritis, a urinary tract infection, bladder stones, and interstitial cystitis (inflammation of the bladder) ? All of these can be painful conditions. When pain becomes associated with the litter box, the litter box gets avoided.

To diagnose a UTI or interstitial cystitis, the vet may do a cystocentesis, where a needle is inserted into the bladder to withdraw a specimen. X-rays can help diagnose stones or arthritis.

Glucosamine is reputed to help with interstitial cystitis. The right antibiotic will treat any infection; it can be helpful to do a culture and sensitivity to gt the right antibiotic. Stones will generally require surgery. Arthritis may be treated with Adequan among other things.

A vet may choose to treat empirically, that is, treat "as if" a likely condition were present without doing more expensive testing. Something to discuss with the vet.

Also, several of us here have wondered if diabetic neuropathy might make it difficult to control bladder function. If that were the cause, using methylcobalamin (methyl B-12 vitamin) may be helpful.
 
He had a slight bladder infection when we started and they gave him some antibiotics to treat it. I will get some pads easier to clean than mopping the floor.
I'm backing him down on his insulin. went to 4 units tonight. How long should I keep on 4 units until I back him down again. I will check his BS on Friday.
 
Hi, well Silver is back in his litter box now that's he's more regulated. Re the dosing, I would start ask Mel. Yo
She had me reduce right back to 1u. I'm quite new tho so wait til she replies.

Silver also had a UTI which does make them go out the box.

Silver is 6 weeks in from diagnosis but every cat is different so I can't tell how your cat will respond.
 
It depends on the cause of the problem, its severity, and whether the cause is cureable or only treatable ...which means I don't know. I would check back with the vet. The bladder infection may not have cleared if the antibiotic didn't get used long enough or wasn't the right antibiotic.

Could you add a few things to your signature, to help us give you better feedback?

Go to the top left of the screen.
Click on User Control Panel.
Click on Profile
Click on Edit Signature
A text box displays.
This is where you paste the link for your spreadsheet, once it is set up.
Add any other text, such as
your name, cat's name,
city, state,country
date of Dx (diagnosis)
insulin
meter
any other pertinent issues like food issues, allergies, IBD,

etc.
Then Click on Submit to save it.
 
setting up a spreadsheet

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=18207

hi Poleysmom
5 units is a really high dose for starting out. do you test blood glucose at home? it is very important, especially at such a high dose, to test blood sugar before each preshot and also at least once in the middle of each cycle to see how low kitty is going. we usually all start out low and increase ( 1 unit bid) as opposed to starting high and decreasing. too much insulin looks just like too little insulin for blood sugar numbers. i noticed you mentioned you would test his blood sugar on friday. you really need to test it every day especially on such a high dose to keep your cat safe. if he is going too low anywhere in his cycle it can be very dangerous.

the link above is info on how to set up a spreadsheet so we can see it and help you with dosing etc. i know it seems like alot when you first begin but we will help you. please ask any questions you have. i will find the food link and post it here. also please be very careful.... when you change to all wet low carb food, blood glucose can drop by over 100 points. at your very high dose, i would be very careful. please consider starting low and going slow with increases. i will also post that protocol here for you.
 
Alrighty! Let's get you started using our grid to record your glucose tests. It will help us give you better feedback.

Instructions are here.

Understanding the spreadsheet/grid:

The colored headings at the top are the ranges of glucose values. They are color-coded to clue you in as to meaning.

Each day is 1 row. Each column stores different data for the day.

From left to right, you enter
the Date in the first column
the AMPS (morning pre-shot test) in the 2nd column
the Units given (turquoise column)

Then, there are 11 columns labeled +1 through +11
If you test at +5 (5 hours after the shot), you enter the test number in the +5 column
If you test at +7 (7 hours after the shot), you enter the test number in the +7 column
and so on.

Halfway across the page is the column for PMPS (evening pre-shot)
To the right is another turquoise column for Units given at the evening shot.

There is second set of columns labeled +1 through +11
If you snag a before bed test at +3, you enter the test number in the +3 column.

We separate day and night numbers like that because many cats go lower at night.

It is merely a grid for storing the info; no math required.
 
oh also for foods. the wet pate is the best but if you have to use dry then the best one is Young Again Zero Carb. if they will eat wet though that is the best for them. i don't know of many cats that like the d/m and the d/m dry is not good for them. really any dry is not good for them but the Young Again is the lowest carb dry if you absolutely have to feed dry.
 
The diabetic food you buy from the vet is very expensive, still too high in carbs, and most cats hate the stuff. Switch to Fancy Feast or Friskies Pate (chicken and liver is a fave in our house, after a year on Turkey and Giblets). You vet will not be pleased that you do this, but we have dozens of cats here who are thriving partly because of that food change.

Also, the vet will refund you for any unopened cans you take back. Just tell them that kitty refused to eat it.

Next, please give us more info on your cat, other health issues, weight, age, etc. Again, setting up your signature line and spreadsheet gives us great tools to help you.

Assuming you are using Lantus, 5 units is an extremely high starting dose. I would drop the kitty back down to 1 unit, or 1.5 at the most, depending on weight and any other contributing factors. How often are you testing? What meter? Are you dosing on the usual 12 hour regime?
 
I agree with Linda - I got my cat the Purina DM dry and wet from the vet and Silver hated it. The vet wasnt happy I changed to FF but he's been doing well on it.
 
Thanks for all your helpful suggestions. Napoleon was started out at 3 units q12 hours. After 10 days his blood glucose had dropped from 451 to 171. Very good as it's expected that they will stay between 100-200.
But the vet wanted to increase his dose to 4 units hid, so I did. Then after about 5 days his blood glucose was 185. I wasn't pleased and the vet said to increase to 5 units.
After reading your advice, I got some Friskies pate and I decreased his insulin to 4 units bid. He seems to feel better and is wanting more attention. He does like the dry d/m food so for now I've included that with the Friskies.
I use a freestyle lite meter. I'm a nurse so I've done it a thousand times at least.
His drinking has decreased and I'm using pee pads in the garage. He's using them but sometimes he just uses the box.
Once I get back to the PC I'll get the log.
 
The d/m food he's eating is Science Diet. All my cats like it...more then the wet food. But they need the wet so I give them a mixture.
 
Hi,
I would suggest listening to the forum here on dosing advice rather than your vet. The vets see high numbers and immediately increase the insulin. That's not always a good idea.

Someone with more experience than me can jump in and advise.

Juliet
 
Good morning!

I've been off board for a few days spending some time with my family.

So I'm just going to hit a few high points here and get a little more info so we can determine how to help you help Napoleon.

One thing that has been found out here is that the Freestyle Lite with the butterfly strips don't work well with cats. Whether that problem has been corrected I don't know since I don't use that meter. But something that you should be aware of.

Secondly, the target range for blood sugar on human meter for a cat is between 40-120, pet only meters read slightly higher as they are calibrated differently.

Third, Too much insulin and too little insulin can look exactly alike, since as you know being a nurse is that insulin is a hormone rather than a drug, so the body has built in defense system to overdose that will rocket the numbers back up. 3u bid is a ridiculously high starting dose and to have it jumped as fast as it was and in whole units is dangerous.

Personally, if he was mine, I would start over with him. I would take him back to 1u bid, hold for a week, with either lots of random spot checks or taking a day off and running a curve. Yes, he will probably run higher for a few days or weeks, but it is much easier to add more insulin if not enough than to try to get it out of the cat once it is shot.

I, personally, have a cat here that was being highly overdosed based on just the curves at the vet's. My Cassanova came to me on 11u bid and being shot blind. I changed his diet, started him over at 1u bid and tested his little ears off in the early days and 8 months later he was in remission.

Mel and The Fur Gang
 
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