Help with BG numbers please!!

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Patty & Champ

Patty & Champ

Member Since 2011
Hi everyone! I'm very new at posting so bear with me. Okay, this is the start of the second week of giving insulin to Champ. He's on Lantus 3 units b.i.d. I just started regular home BG testing today. I'm checking before each injection and also at +3 and +6 just to see where everything is headed. On Sunday, when I'll be home all day, I'm going to do a curve (if it's not too soon?). Today, I checked Champ's BG at 5:30 am and it was 329. I fed him 3 oz. Wellness and then gave him his 3 units at 6 am. I checked his BG at 9 am and it was 193 (giving him 10 "Temptation" treats to keep him still). I got my times mixed up and checked his BG again at 11:30 insteady of noon and it was 246 (giving him 10 treats again). I then gave him about 0.5 ounce raw chicken breast as a snack.

These numbers confuse me. First, I would have thought his +3 would have come down more and, second, I would have thought his +6 would be lower also. What do I need to change? I'm determined to get him regulated and possibly off insulin altogether and I'll do whatever it takes to make this happen sooner rather than later!!

Some info on Champ that you may need to know: He's 10 years old. He's a very large cat (larger than most small dogs) and used to weigh 21 pounds, but lost down to 15.6 when the diabetes started. He's now at 16 pounds. I'd like to see him at about 14 pounds (no less), but I'm not going to attempt that until the diabetes is controlled. I used to feed him the high carb wet Friskies (he only liked the tender cuts kind of wet food) and Purina One Senior dry. I have been giving him wet Wellness (different flavors) and tried wet Soulistic (chicken and pumpkin which he loved) and bought some Wellness Indoor Health dry, but he has eaten very, very little of this. I feed him one 3 oz can in the am and one 3 oz can in the pm with Wellness jerky treats (1.2 calories each) about 20 in the afternoon. He still gets his crunchy Temptations treats because that's how I distract him for injections and ear sticks. (I don't think he knows he's getting injections yet). I think I'm giving him enough calories (90 calories/can + 60 calories in treats = 240), maybe too many?

Any help and advice would be much appreciated.
 
Hi Patty, welcome to lantus Land. sounds like you are off to a good start. have you read the stickies (permanent posts) at the top of the board? Especially read the on on "LANTUS & LEVEMIR - NEW TO THE GROUP? PLEASE READ... " about half way down there is a typical curve. I'd say at +3 (3 hours after the shot) that was a pretty good drop in BG. At that point the insulin is just beginning to kick in.

The higher +6 could be a number of things: he may have an earlier nadir and you missed it; or more likely those Temptations bumped his numbers up. i know several members who use them to bring cats up who are going too low, they are pretty high carb. Check out the pet stores for freeze dried chicken or salmon treats, 0 carbs and cats go bonkers over them. You may need to check in the dog treats aisle.

This is from Dr. Lisa Pierson's website http://catinfo.org/
  Considering that the average 10 pound cat only needs about 200 calories per day to maintain their weight,

Required calories per day = [13.6 X optimal lean body weight in pounds] + 70
Most female cats should weigh a nice, lean 10 -11 pounds.  Most male cats should fall into the 11 -13 pound range.
Using an optimal body weight of 12 pounds as an example, we come up with 233 calories/day as a starting point.
[13.6 X 12 pounds] + 70 = 233
This formula provides a very generous starting point (usually far too generous)

Consider Calories and Composition, Not Just Ounces
An average canned food contains ~30 calories/ounce.  The plain chicken and plain turkey Wellness products contain ~40 calories/ounce.  Some of the lower quality canned foods only contain ~20 calories/ounce.  So you can see by this wide range that you need to pay attention to calories - not just ounces of food.
For high protein/low fat snacks you can offer small pieces of chicken but remember that you are feeding a small cat, not a human.  A little bit of food can be significant in terms of calories.
Chicken meat:
Raw, lean, skinned leg/thigh meat  =  ~34 calories/ounce.
Cooked, lean, skinned leg/thigh meat  =  ~50 calories/ounce.
This site is a good source for calorie/nutrient content of many foods.
Click to expand...

According to those calculations you are probably feeding a good amount for weight loss, what you are giving him is about the right number of calories for maintaining a 12 pound cat. A little more might nit hurt, you don't want him to lose weight too quickly, that can lead to other problems.

Please read the stickies and Dr. Lisa's pages especially the ones on Nutrition and the one on Weight Loss. i have to go, someone just got here. I'll be back later.
 
Thank you, Tess!! Believe it or not, I have read that vet's webpage. She is why I've questioned everything my own vet has told me....they are polar opposites in their ideas. I think I'll get rid of those Temptations treats today (or lock them away unless we have a hypo event). I have to go to the pet store anyway because, in my overzealousness at my cat's diagnosis, I jumped in with both feet and ordered two cases of very expensive Wellness Core wet food. Now that I've realized I spent $80 on food that will only last approximately 1.5 months, I decided to take it back and get the Fancy Feast classic. While it has some by-products, it still sounds like it's healthy. I just hope my Champers will eat it!! He always hated pate type foods until I gave him the Wellness. I'm hoping the Fancy Feast is just as delicious to him. While at the store, I'll get some freeze dried treats for him and hope that takes care of any BG problems. I'm going to continue posting his BG numbers so everyone can advise me!!
 
Thank you, Tess!! Believe it or not, I have read that vet's webpage. She is why I've questioned everything my own vet has told me....they are polar opposites in their ideas. I think I'll get rid of those Temptations treats today (or lock them away unless we have a hypo event). I have to go to the pet store anyway because, in my overzealousness at my cat's diagnosis, I jumped in with both feet and ordered two cases of very expensive Wellness Core wet food. Now that I've realized I spent $80 on food that will only last approximately 1.5 months, I decided to take it back and get the Fancy Feast classic. While it has some by-products, it still sounds like it's healthy. I just hope my Champers will eat it!! He always hated pate type foods until I gave him the Wellness. I'm hoping the Fancy Feast is just as delicious to him. While at the store, I'll get some freeze dried treats for him and hope that takes care of any BG problems. I'm going to continue posting his BG numbers so everyone can advise me!!
 
Patty: Welcome to Lantus Land. Hopefully you'll set up a Spreadsheet and post daily...we are a close group and give each other ALOT of help and support. It's an amazing group.....we couldn't do this sugardance without the peeps in Lantus Land.

I agree with Ann....I bet the Temptations did it; we use freeze dried chicken treats (Whole Life). The Wellness Core is 8% calories from carbs....I actually use it for steering numbers as well and stick to the lower %calories from carb like Wellness chicken (4%), turkey (4%), beef/chicken (4%) as regular meals and if I'm shooting a low PS, I use Wellness chicken/herring (6%), beef/salmon (6%), and turkey/salmon (6%). Because every cat is different (ECID), then you'll need to learn what works for Champ. Some cats do better on lower carb foods in the 0-1% and some, like my Gracie and also Gabby, Rusty, and Tess, do better on a little higher carbs like the Wellness. You can use the Temptations if he gets really low...Roni does with Moonie. You can also get some of the Fancy Feast gravy lovers' varieties to steer low numbers with. I like the Wellness Healthy Indulgence pouches as Gracie does well with 13-14% carbs when she gets low. Always good to have your karo on hand!!
 
I'd buy several flavors to see what he likes. Have you checked out Janet & Binky's list? http://binkyspage.tripod.com/canfood.html br sure to look at both the old and new lists, most of the Fancy Feast is on the old list.

Wellness is a very good food. Have you considered buying the larger cans? Since he eats 6oz a day, what about 12.5oz can? That would last 2 days and a lot less expensive than 4 small cans. I just looked at PetFoodDirect and 12 of the 12.5oz. cans were $21.49, that works out to about 14¢ an ounce. That's about the same as Fancy Feast. There are other ways to save like coupon codes for discounts and free shipping too. Even in a retail store the larger cans are way cheaper than the small ones, you are paying a lot for the packaging.
 
This board is AWESOME!!! Totally making me feel more secure about things.

Ann, how funny!! I checked online prices for the large cans of Wellness also and saw the same thing. Guess what? I'm going with the Wellness. I've already tried a lot of the flavors on champers and he likes them all.

Now...if someone could look at his spreadsheet, please! His last BG was 318. He only had one dip to 193 at +3 and its been rising ever since. Of course, he has had the Temptations for every stick except the last one. I gave him Wellness jerky treats instead and then gave him a snack of 1 oz. of raw chicken breast. He's been sleeping all afternoon which I don't like too much, but it seems to be a normal type of sleep, not the scary kind he had when he first started on the insulin and before I changed his diet. I can't wait to see what his BG is before his next insulin shot at 6 pm. Well, I'm off to get him some freeze dried treats for tomorrow's ear sticks.
 
The Temptations are a big no no!! I wouldn't throw them out. They may have a purpose if Champs is ever "off" his food (i.e., smash one and sprinkle a bit over food). The other bad news is that the Wellness Indoor dry is 38% carb. That's way high carb food.

There's not a great deal of info on your spreadsheet (SS) yet so venturing any interpretation is hard. I would suggest getting at least a test before you go to bed. Many cats have lower numbers during the PM cycle. It's also possible that Champs will bounce off of that 193 but whether he does remains to be seen.

If I may ask, how did you get to a dose of 3.0u? When was Champs diagnosed? You might want to complete a Profile and attach it to your signature so we don't keep asking the same questions.
 
Hi Patty & Champ,
Welcome to Lantus Land. It sounds like you're becoming well acquainted with the types of foods out there. Rusty loves the Wellness Turkey (4% carbs) and goes bonkers over Fancy Feast Classic Turkey & Giblets (which is only supposed to be 3%, but it tends to spike his bg; every cat is different--ECID). (I don't know what it is about Fancy Feast, but all the kitties really like it. I use the Classic Turkey & Giblets in very small servings, as a special treat.)
It looks like Champ was only diagnosed a week ago. Sienne asked how the dose of 3.0 units bid was arrived at. It is a rather large starting dose (most kitties, even large ones like Champ, start at 1 unit bid or 1.5 units bid and work up to an appropriate dose). Sienne is very experienced at interpreting spreadsheets, but it appears that she needs more data in order to give you the advice you need.

Good luck with the diet and, again, welcome. You have found the right place! You will get lots of help, support and encouragement here.

Ella & Rusty
 
Well I took back the Wellness wet I ordered from Petco ($77 for 24 5.5 oz cans!!). Then I went on PetFoodDirect and ordered Wellness wet for $108 for 48 12.5 oz cans. This should last about three months so well worth the cost...only $.18 an ounce!!

Well, Champ's ears are a mess after multiple sticks today because I'm not very good at getting enough blood with the first stick. Poor guy. After a checked his BG before his evening insulin, he quickly ate a little bit of his food and then hid under my desk. I was able to get him out to give him his insulin, but he then ran under my bed and there is no way I'm going to be able to get him out. He's having nothing to do with me at all and it makes me feel soooo bad. Hopefully, he'll come out in the morning so I can make him miserable again. I'm only going to check the BGs before his shots tomorrow and Saturday since I'm planning on doing a curve on Sunday and I want to give him a break so he's not so gun shy.
 
Patty --

At the minimum, please get one spot check during both the AM and PM cycles. Getting pre-shot tests only tells you whether it's safe to give a shot. Lantus dosing is based on nadir. Gabby has had days where her pre-shot numbers were in the 400s and her nadir was in the 40s. Please get at least one test in addition to your pre-shot BG tests.
 
I'll definitely try to get BGs at both +6's in addition to the PS's. I'll close all the doors to every room so he doesn't have many places to hide.
 
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