Help w Diabetic & CKD Food Options

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George’s Mom

George’s Mom

Member Since 2022
I have been scouring the message board looking for a post with this info but am not seeing it (if it exists, please send me that direction!).

I am trying to figure out the ideal food for my 17.5 year old diabetic (Acro) and now CKD cat. I used the “list” and found Weruva Truluxe Glam N Punk. It has 0.6% carbs (Metabolizable Energy) and 180 mg phosphorus per 100kcal. Cat likes it okay. But I noticed it is really fatty (looks like sausage to me). So I looked up the fat % and it’s 63% fat (Metabolizable Energy)!:eek: And is $2 a can for all that fat!

So I am thinking I need to find something else. Price is not an issue for me (I’ll do anything for my Georgie Porgie). Not that I am looking for expensive. What I’m really looking for is the best food choice and I’m okay if it’s not the cheapest. What I’ve learned I need to look for:

1) Low carb = <10% carbs (Metabolizable Energy)

2) Kidney Friendly = <250 mg/kcal phosphorus

3) No fish flavor??? Even if <250 phos??? He likes fish flavor…

4) Protein should be primary and fat should be lower. Learned this from Dr Lisa whitepaper. What % max for fat?

I’d love to leverage you smart people’s research and experience and find out what you’re feeding your kitties (if sugar cat and CKD). What are you feeding your kitties?

Thanks so much for your help!
 
weruva has low carb and low phospherous wet food
With weruva foods
You want the metabolizable energy profile percentage of carbs to be less than 10%, and the phosphorus which Weruva lists in Minerals to be less than 250 mg per 100 cals. So you have to look at two different places in the Weruva charts.
https://weruva.com


For diabetic cats and cats that have elevated kidney values
You want to feed low phosphorous wet food

When you go to the weruva site and click on one of the pics of the food , click on Detailed Nutrition information that is under guaranteed analysis to the left
YOU WANT CARBS UNDER 10% AND PHOSPHORUS IDEALLY LOW 200's OR LESS

Go to this thread , there are a lot of weruva foods listed here in post #3 , post numbers are to the left
https://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/kidney-disease.262271/#post-2940026

Also
https://www.soulisticpet.com/nutritional-information-pate
I think you look under the same two places like in the Weruva to get the carbs and phosphorus %

If George likes Pate here are the weruva pages
Take a look here https://weruva.com/nutrition-landing/pates-ni/

Try not to feed a lot of fish flavors , once a week is fine

Try looking here I know a lot of members feed Tiki Cat also
Look on this link. There are phosphorus levels here for all food.
Look for 200mg phosphorus or less/100kcal
https://catinfo.org/docs/CatFoodProteinFatCarbPhosphorusChart.pdf
 
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George’s Mom said:
I have been scouring the message board looking for a post with this info but am not seeing it (if it exists, please send me that direction!).

I am trying to figure out the ideal food for my 17.5 year old diabetic (Acro) and now CKD cat. I used the “list” and found Weruva Truluxe Glam N Punk. It has 0.6% carbs (Metabolizable Energy) and 180 mg phosphorus per 100kcal. Cat likes it okay. But I noticed it is really fatty (looks like sausage to me). So I looked up the fat % and it’s 63% fat (Metabolizable Energy)!:eek: And is $2 a can for all that fat!

So I am thinking I need to find something else. Price is not an issue for me (I’ll do anything for my Georgie Porgie). Not that I am looking for expensive. What I’m really looking for is the best food choice and I’m okay if it’s not the cheapest. What I’ve learned I need to look for:

1) Low carb = <10% carbs (Metabolizable Energy)

2) Kidney Friendly = <250 mg/kcal phosphorus

3) No fish flavor??? Even if <250 phos??? He likes fish flavor…

4) Protein should be primary and fat should be lower. Learned this from Dr Lisa whitepaper. What % max for fat?

I’d love to leverage you smart people’s research and experience and find out what you’re feeding your kitties (if sugar cat and CKD). What are you feeding your kitties?

Thanks so much for your help!
Click to expand...

The link posted by Kyle @Hendrick Cuddleclaw are a wealth of information. And that list was updated as recent as May 2022.
What stage CKD is George? I'm tagging @Suzanne & Darcy who pops in and out of the message board quite often who is very knowledgeable about FD, ACRO and CKD.
 
Hi Rachel. I thought I just sent you the lists of foods for diabetic cats with CKD yesterday — but obviously it was somebody else. It’s the list that Kyle attached. Great list — it has the specific list for low carb foods with low/moderate pho levels. I have had good luck with the Weruva BFF PLAY foods which are low carb and low phosphorus for a non-prescription food.
 
Angela & Cleo said:
The link posted by Kyle @Hendrick Cuddleclaw are a wealth of information. And that list was updated as recent as May 2022.
What stage CKD is George? I'm tagging @Suzanne & Darcy who pops in and out of the message board quite often who is very knowledgeable about FD, ACRO and CKD.
Click to expand...
Well we don’t have full info yet, waiting on a few add on lab results, but his phosphorus was 6.7, creatinine was 2.6 I think. I don’t think she gave me bun. I don’t have # for hematocrit, but it was going down vet said.

I have read much of what @Diane Tyler's Mom posted. It is a ton of good info. I was wondering if anyone had found a particular food within the list that they really liked.

We tried Weruva Cats in Kitchen - La Isla Bonita today. It has carb ME (metabolizable energy) of 3.4%, phos 166/100 kcal, but fat makes up 46% of ME, protein ME 51%. Is that a good food? He likes it. It’s a fish protein (mackerel & shrimp).

He also really liked Weruva Classic Mideast Feast. It has carb ME 7%, phos 202, fat ME 32%, protein 61%. But it’s a fish protein (grilled tilapia).

I also read from Dr Lisa that liver is good for them. But I am not finding a good low carb low phos option that has liver.
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
Hi Rachel. I thought I just sent you the lists of foods for diabetic cats with CKD yesterday — but obviously it was somebody else. It’s the list that Kyle attached. Great list — it has the specific list for low carb foods with low/moderate pho levels. I have had good luck with the Weruva BFF PLAY foods which are low carb and low phosphorus for a non-prescription food.
Click to expand...
Yes! Someone did already (bet it was you!!!) and I did look at it. With this post, I was just trying to see what people are actually buying for CKD/DM/(and even Acro) kitties.
What do you think @Suzanne & Darcy about giving him a fish protein? Think it’s okay if phosphorus level is low?
 
George’s Mom said:
Well we don’t have full info yet, waiting on a few add on lab results, but his phosphorus was 6.7, creatinine was 2.6 I think. I don’t think she gave me bun. I don’t have # for hematocrit, but it was going down vet said.

I have read much of what @Diane Tyler's Mom posted. It is a ton of good info. I was wondering if anyone had found a particular food within the list that they really liked.

We tried Weruva Cats in Kitchen - La Isla Bonita today. It has carb ME (metabolizable energy) of 3.4%, phos 166/100 kcal, but fat makes up 46% of ME, protein ME 51%. Is that a good food? He likes it. It’s a fish protein (mackerel & shrimp).

He also really liked Weruva Classic Mideast Feast. It has carb ME 7%, phos 202, fat ME 32%, protein 61%. But it’s a fish protein (grilled tilapia).

I also read from Dr Lisa that liver is good for them. But I am not finding a good low carb low phos option that has liver.
Click to expand...

I don't know if the BFF play weruva pate is on the list your looking at or not. I wrote down the protein carbs & phosphorus #s in a notebook.
BFF play chicken Checkmate
Protein 31%
Carbs 5%
Phosphorus 129%
BFF play chicken & turkey topsy turvy
Protein 32%
Carbs 5%
Phosphorus 129%
BFF play chicken cherish
Protein 31%
Carbs 5%
Phosphorus 135%
BFF chicken & turkey tiptoe
Protein 31%
Carbs 5%
Phosphorus 136%
BFF chicken duck & turkey take a chance
Protein 32%
Carbs 5%
Phosphorus 149%
BFF play chicken & lamb laugh out loud
Protein 31%
Carbs 5%
Phosphorus 154%
BFF play chicken & duck destiny
Protein 32%
Carbs 5%
Phosphorus 165%
BFF play chicken & beef best buds
Protein 33%
Carbs 5%
Phosphorus 171%
Don't know if your kitty likes pate but here is the list of the BFF line.
I tried to switch my boys over to weruva but my sugar boy wasn't having it. We didn't try all of the flavors though so we may try again soon. Good luck with your kitty's.
 
George’s Mom said:
Well we don’t have full info yet, waiting on a few add on lab results, but his phosphorus was 6.7, creatinine was 2.6 I think. I don’t think she gave me bun. I don’t have # for hematocrit, but it was going down vet said.

I have read much of what @Diane Tyler's Mom posted. It is a ton of good info. I was wondering if anyone had found a particular food within the list that they really liked.

We tried Weruva Cats in Kitchen - La Isla Bonita today. It has carb ME (metabolizable energy) of 3.4%, phos 166/100 kcal, but fat makes up 46% of ME, protein ME 51%. Is that a good food? He likes it. It’s a fish protein (mackerel & shrimp).

He also really liked Weruva Classic Mideast Feast. It has carb ME 7%, phos 202, fat ME 32%, protein 61%. But it’s a fish protein (grilled tilapia).

I also read from Dr Lisa that liver is good for them. But I am not finding a good low carb low phos option that has liver.
Click to expand...
With that phosphorus being that high, I would definitely go for the low phosphorus foods. Then I would get bloods rechecked in a month to see if it has made a positive difference. Let us know when you get the rest of the blood values.
 
When I had a consultation with Dr. Lisa a few years ago, she told me that I should not worry too much about fat. She said it was important to keep things low carb and that only leaves fat and protein. Cats need protein and she said most cats did fine on a high fat diet. I would just try new foods slowly to make sure they don’t disagree with George.
 
George’s Mom said:
Yes! Someone did already (bet it was you!!!) and I did look at it. With this post, I was just trying to see what people are actually buying for CKD/DM/(and even Acro) kitties.
What do you think @Suzanne & Darcy about giving him a fish protein? Think it’s okay if phosphorus level is low?
Click to expand...
If he likes fish and it is low phosphorus then I think it’s okay but not too often. Fish are often high in mercury and other heavy metals, so I would avoid a steady diet of fish. Also, sometimes cats become fish junkies and won’t eat anything else!
 
Chrispooky12 said:
I don't know if the BFF play weruva pate is on the list your looking at or not. I wrote down the protein carbs & phosphorus #s in a notebook.
BFF play chicken Checkmate
Protein 31%
Carbs 5%
Phosphorus 129%
BFF play chicken & turkey topsy turvy
Protein 32%
Carbs 5%
Phosphorus 129%
BFF play chicken cherish
Protein 31%
Carbs 5%
Phosphorus 135%
BFF chicken & turkey tiptoe
Protein 31%
Carbs 5%
Phosphorus 136%
BFF chicken duck & turkey take a chance
Protein 32%
Carbs 5%
Phosphorus 149%
BFF play chicken & lamb laugh out loud
Protein 31%
Carbs 5%
Phosphorus 154%
BFF play chicken & duck destiny
Protein 32%
Carbs 5%
Phosphorus 165%
BFF play chicken & beef best buds
Protein 33%
Carbs 5%
Phosphorus 171%
Don't know if your kitty likes pate but here is the list of the BFF line.
I tried to switch my boys over to weruva but my sugar boy wasn't having it. We didn't try all of the flavors though so we may try again soon. Good luck with your kitty's.
Click to expand...
That's so helpful Christina Thank you
@Chrispooky12
 
:bookworm::bookworm::bookworm:
Suzanne & Darcy said:
When I had a consultation with Dr. Lisa a few years ago, she told me that I should not worry too much about fat. She said it was important to keep things low carb and that only leaves fat and protein. Cats need protein and she said most cats did fine on a high fat diet. I would just try new foods slowly to make sure they don’t disagree with George.
Click to expand...
I have been reading this CKD info all night! https://felinecrf.org/which_foods.htm And more relevant for me: https://felinecrf.org/diabetes.htm#diet

So I’ve got it wrong. Apparently fat is easier for the kidneys to process. So it’s not horrible for the food to be higher in fat (it can’t be high carb - FD; it can’t be high protein - CKD, so fat is only other energy component).

I also read that the prescription (therapeutic) kidney foods have low protein but also the proteins they do contain have a “high biologic value” meaning they don’t produce a ton of nitrogenous wastes which are hard for the kidneys to filter out. So they’re not as crappy as I thought! Apparently they also add essential fatty acids, etc to help the kidneys function. Ulgh this stuff is so overwhelming.

I also read that basically I want to have protein (dry matter analysis) around 28-35% for CKD. There aren’t any complete balanced foods that are that low protein unless they are prescription kidney foods.
So..
  1. Protein: 28-35% (dry matter)
  2. Carb <10% metabolizable energy
  3. Fat is apparently okay to be a bit higher although Dr Lisa had said fat is generally cheap and is a filler.
  4. Phosphorus <200 (or 250)
  5. No fish as regular diet food. I think bc of mercury etc
  6. Low sodium is a plus
  7. Senior foods can be low protein and low phosphorus.
  8. Egg whites are a high biologic protein food apparently.
So after all this research, the food I originally purchased (Weruva Truluxe Glam N Punk) is probably one of the better non prescription foods from Weruva. At least that is my interpretation.

Nothing fits well. Reconsidering the overwhelming ness of making the food… or at least supplementing with some egg whites… What do you think of all of this?!?
 
Chrispooky12 said:
I don't know if the BFF play weruva pate is on the list your looking at or not. I wrote down the protein carbs & phosphorus #s in a notebook.
Click to expand...

This list is great! Just adding dry matter basis for protein (website I was reading talks about it in these terms- ideal protein dry matter basis (DMB) for CKD is 28-35% in the opinion of the author (https://felinecrf.org/which_foods.htm). Not sure what the “biologic value” of the protein is, but I guess there is only so much we can know:
Protein is shown as ME= Metabolizable Energy and DMB = Dry Matter Basis; all Phosphorus is shown as mg/100 kcals
  • BFF play chicken Checkmate
    • Protein 31% ME (DMB 47.7%)
    • Carbs 5% ME
    • Phosphorus 129
  • BFF play chicken & turkey topsy turvy
    • Protein 32% (DMB 48.1%)
    • Carbs 5%
    • Phosphorus 129
  • BFF play chicken cherish
    • Protein 31% (DMB 47.1%)
    • Carbs 5%
    • Phosphorus 135
  • BFF chicken & turkey tiptoe
    • Protein 31% (DMB 47.5%)
    • Carbs 5%
    • Phosphorus 136
  • BFF chicken duck & turkey take a chance
    • Protein 32% (DMB 48.5%)
    • Carbs 5%
    • Phosphorus 149
  • BFF play chicken & lamb laugh out loud
    • Protein 31% (DMB 47.6%)
    • Carbs 5%
    • Phosphorus 154
  • BFF play chicken & duck destiny
    • Protein 32% (DMB 47.8%)
    • Carbs 5%
    • Phosphorus 165
  • BFF play chicken & beef best buds
    • Protein 33% (DMB 49.3%)
    • Carbs 5%
    • Phosphorus 171
  • Truluxe Glam n’ Punk
    • Protein 36.4% (DMB 54%)
    • Carbs 0.6%
    • Phosphorus 180
All 3 of my kitties like pate.
 
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George’s Mom said:
:bookworm::bookworm::bookworm:
I have been reading this CKD info all night! https://felinecrf.org/which_foods.htm And more relevant for me: https://felinecrf.org/diabetes.htm#diet

So I’ve got it wrong. Apparently fat is easier for the kidneys to process. So it’s not horrible for the food to be higher in fat (it can’t be high carb - FD; it can’t be high protein - CKD, so fat is only other energy component).

I also read that the prescription (therapeutic) kidney foods have low protein but also the proteins they do contain have a “high biologic value” meaning they don’t produce a ton of nitrogenous wastes which are hard for the kidneys to filter out. So they’re not as crappy as I thought! Apparently they also add essential fatty acids, etc to help the kidneys function. Ulgh this stuff is so overwhelming.

I also read that basically I want to have protein (dry matter analysis) around 28-35% for CKD. There aren’t any complete balanced foods that are that low protein unless they are prescription kidney foods.
So..
  1. Protein: 28-35% (dry matter)
  2. Carb <10% metabolizable energy
  3. Fat is apparently okay to be a bit higher although Dr Lisa had said fat is generally cheap and is a filler.
  4. Phosphorus <200 (or 250)
  5. No fish as regular diet food. I think bc of mercury etc
  6. Low sodium is a plus
  7. Senior foods can be low protein and low phosphorus.
  8. Egg whites are a high biologic protein food apparently.
So after all this research, the food I originally purchased (Weruva Truluxe Glam N Punk) is probably one of the better non prescription foods from Weruva. At least that is my interpretation.

Nothing fits well. Reconsidering the overwhelming ness of making the food… or at least supplementing with some egg whites… What do you think of all of this?!?
Click to expand...
You are right. That’s was Dr. Lisa’s point about the fat. Egg white provides protein that is low phosphorus; lots of CKD pet parents use it to help prevent muscle wasting. EZ Complete premix may be a good option for you if you decide to make food - or to add homemade food into your food rotation.
 
I have been feeding Chicken Duck and Turkey Take a Chance and Chicken and Lamb Laugh Out Loud. For some reason they seem to like it better than the Chicken Checkmate and Chicken and Turkey Topsy Turvy (the addition of duck and lamb, probably.)
 
George’s Mom said:
Nothing fits well. Reconsidering the overwhelming ness of making the food… or at least supplementing with some egg whites… What do you think of all of this?!?
Click to expand...

I thought about trying to make homemade cat food for a long time before finally giving it a go just a few weeks ago, using EZ-Complete and a food processor.

So, couple things --- one: the kids love it so much!! Every single one of our six cats now goes freaking nuts when they realize I am making a batch.

Two: It is so, SO much easier than I ever imagined it could be if you use EZ-Complete. I'm sure if I was actually grinding up organs, etc it would be a much bigger ordeal but with EZ-Complete I can whip up a batch in minutes. So far, I have at most refrigerated half a batch and fed some after making it, some later in the day. But a lot of people make a whole bunch and just freeze it, apparently.

https://www.foodfurlife.com/ezcomplete-fur-cats-premix-information.html#/
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
I have been feeding Chicken Duck and Turkey Take a Chance and Chicken and Lamb Laugh Out Loud. For some reason they seem to like it better than the Chicken Checkmate and Chicken and Turkey Topsy Turvy (the addition of duck and lamb, probably.)
Click to expand...
The Truluxe Glam n punk is duck and lamb. I added to list above. My understanding from what I read is that with CKD cats, we are balancing too much protein with not enough. So either too much and they feel crummy and won’t eat or not enough and lose weight. Or not enough protein and they lose weight (muscle wasting). Basically what I understand is that as long as they’re clearing the nitrogenous wastes well, then they’re tolerating the higher protein fine. It talked about whether BUN is high as an indicator of whether they’re handling.


Suzanne & Darcy said:
You are right. That’s was Dr. Lisa’s point about the fat. Egg white provides protein that is low phosphorus; lots of CKD pet parents use it to help prevent muscle wasting. EZ Complete premix may be a good option for you if you decide to make food - or to add homemade food into your food rotation.
Click to expand...
She and this other site aren’t exactly on the same page. This site made me want to mix the Hills K/D with the glam n punk -partially good for kidneys (hills) and partially good for BG (glam n punk). But I think the hills is still too high in carbs for my sugar kitty and Dr Lisa thinks it’s crap (or at least that’s what I remember).
Hendrick Cuddleclaw said:
I thought about trying to make homemade cat food for a long time before finally giving it a go just a few weeks ago, using EZ-Complete and a food processor.
Click to expand...
So yes @Hendrick Cuddleclaw, maybe make my own food or add a rotation like you said @Suzanne & Darcy. Or maybe mix the canned with the supplemental ingredients (egg white Etc). I’m a little nervous about using the raw meat. Not for any reason except not knowing it’s nutritional values (phosphorus level, protein, fat, etc). I don’t know anything about the EZ complete but I am going to read about it. This stuff is so complex especially for a FD/CKD cat.
 
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I would go to the above foodfurlife site. They have LOADS of great information and recipes/discussions about how to do it. It's probably cheaper than buying it from Amazon, but I never compared.
 
George’s Mom said:
It talked about whether BUN is high as an indicator of whether they’re handling.
Click to expand...
Exactly what I was just going to say. BUN would be the indicator. At some point, their BUN is just going to be high.... but how high? At that point, switching to a renal food would be the way to go.... they are not as crummy as they used to be. They can really help a lot. Sub-q fluids can help with BUN and make the cat feel a whole lot better. They're not low carb but insulin can be adjusted. When you get to that point, the pros of the Rx renal foods usually outweigh the cons.

Battling dehydration is very important. The body is very efficient at drawing all of the moisture out of the stool to be used by the body when the cat gets dehydrated -- this can leave dry rocks in the colon that are difficult to move.
 
EZ Complete is low phosphorus because they do not use bone in there. They use eggshell calcium. I don't know the phosphorus off the top of my head, but check their website that I linked above. I know you will find it since you are a great researcher.:bookworm:
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
EZ Complete is low phosphorus because they do not use bone in there. They use eggshell calcium. I don't know the phosphorus off the top of my head, but check their website that I linked above. I know you will find it since you are a great researcher.:bookworm:
Click to expand...

from what I was reading today it is not quite as low phos as I would like, somewhere around .8% but that is still worlds better than all the FF we were feeding these past months.
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
EZ Complete is low phosphorus because they do not use bone in there. They use eggshell calcium. I don't know the phosphorus off the top of my head, but check their website that I linked above. I know you will find it since you are a great researcher.:bookworm:
Click to expand...
Haha! On Amazon, it showed combined with certain foods and all showed <1%. I’m not 100% that I’m reading that correctly, but sounds like it is super low. Just need to confirm the actual raw meat doesn’t add more phosphorus. I’m sure I can find that out there somewhere. If anyone knows where to find phosphorus levels in various raw foods, let me know!
Suzanne & Darcy said:
Exactly what I was just going to say. BUN would be the indicator. At some point, their BUN is just going to be high.... but how high? At that point, switching to a renal food would be the way to go.... they are not as crummy as they used to be. They can really help a lot. Sub-q fluids can help with BUN and make the cat feel a whole lot better. They're not low carb but insulin can be adjusted. When you get to that point, the pros of the Rx renal foods usually outweigh the cons.

Battling dehydration is very important. The body is very efficient at drawing all of the moisture out of the stool to be used by the body when the cat gets dehydrated -- this can leave dry rocks in the colon that are difficult to move.
Click to expand...
I have subQ fluids from my other two CKD kitties. Guess we should start giving to Georgie Porgie too. He’s a big cat (long and generally strong) so he’s gonna be a pain in the ( )( ) to give sub Qs. But yes, this settles that question in my mind. Start George on subQs. Check.
 
George’s Mom said:
Ewww… you’re right. .8 is high for CKD. This says .3-.6 is ideal dry matter range: https://felinecrf.org/phosphorus.htm
Click to expand...

yep, would prefer under .5

but, it is not what we are feeding exclusively, and when combined with other lower phos foods her overall diet is certainly closer to .5%

{edit} and I should also mention we have no CKD kitties. We have one 14-year-old kitty with some lab work that shows she could have CKD in her future so we are reducing phos intake across the board for all the older kitties anyway.
 
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Suzanne & Darcy said:
You are right. That’s was Dr. Lisa’s point about the fat. Egg white provides protein that is low phosphorus; lots of CKD pet parents use it to help prevent muscle wasting. EZ Complete premix may be a good option for you if you decide to make food - or to add homemade food into your food rotation.
Click to expand...
Think I can just cook some eggs whites and feed them to him as a snack? Is that okay to do?
 
Hendrick Cuddleclaw said:
from what I was reading today it is not quite as low phos as I would like, somewhere around .8% but that is still worlds better than all the FF we were feeding these past months.
Click to expand...
Yes. It’s never going to get as low phosphorus as a renal diet either, but it is an improvement over many other foods, as you say.
 
George’s Mom said:
What else are you feeding? Do tell!!! :)
Also, what kind of meat are you using?
Click to expand...

Weruva Truluxe Glam n Punk and Steak Frites are on the menu

So far, for the homemade I have used only chicken breast. Doing some reading today I found on the EZ-Complete website they actually don't mention that meat so maybe I should be using something else like turkey breast, turkey thighs, or pork loin. I just saw the label said use whatever meat you want so went with something easy.
 
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Hendrick Cuddleclaw said:
Weruva Truluxe Glam n Punk and Steak Frites are on the menu

So far, for the homemade I have used only chicken breast. Doing some reading today I found on the EZ-Complete website they actually don't mention that meat so maybe I should be using something else like turkey breast, turkey things, or pork loin. I just saw the label said use whatever meat you want so went with something easy.
Click to expand...
Ahhh! So we are on the same page! I probably would’ve gone for chicken too. I wonder if there is a resource to show the phosphorus % (dry matter) of the various meats. Hmmm
 
George’s Mom said:
Ahhh! So we are on the same page! I probably would’ve gone for chicken too. I wonder if there is a resource to show the phosphorus % (dry matter) of the various meats. Hmmm
Click to expand...
If you start searching, there's a lot out there about different meats and their phosphorus levels -- it's usually for humans with kidney disease, but it would still tell you which meats are lowest in phosphorus.) Just remember that you can always use phosphorus binders when the time comes. Getting George to eat/keeping him eating is the most important thing.
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
Yes. This is okay. It's cooked egg white that they need, to deactivate the Avidin in the egg white, so that it won't interfere with the absorption of B-vitamins in the cat. I think this would be fine.
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I’m confused by what you said here. The Avidin is in the egg white? So cooking it deactivates it?
 
Copied from Tanya’s site:
Egg White Cautions

Although egg whites are nutritious with minimal waste production, they do not have many calories, so you do not want them to make up too high a percentage of your cat's daily food intake. One to two egg whites each day might be appropriate, if your vet agrees, as long as your cat also eats a complete cat food.



Eggs may inhibit iron absorption. Prediction of dietary iron absorption: an algorithm for calculating absorption and bioavailability of dietary iron(2000) Hallber L& Hulthén L American Journal of Clinical Nutrition 71(5) pp1147-60 found that eating eggs reduced iron absorption by around 27%. This applies more to the yolk than to the white but be careful if your cat is anaemic.
 
Anyway I don’t think you were getting ready to feed raw egg white. All I am saying if cooked egg white is the way to go. Or if you buy a powdered product then make sure it was cooked or you cook it first.
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
Anyway I don’t think you were getting ready to feed raw egg white. All I am saying if cooked egg white is the way to go. Or if you buy a powdered product then make sure it was cooked or you cook it first.
Click to expand...
Geezo. Everything in moderation they say. His brother OJ died from Anemic CKD, so I know how important it is to keep their iron up. Sounds like a lil treat of it here and there, maybe much like fish. I actually asked Food Fur Life about the phosphorus content in the EZ Complete food and got the following response:


“As to the target phosphorus, current research indicates there is a problem with the super low phosphorus "veterinary diet" foods. AAFCO minimum is 0.5% and the "low" phosphorus foods are causing hypercalcemia, which may be contributing to the calcification of tissues / organs in our CKD cats.

In the research that separated the impact of phosphorus from the impact of protein in cats (when I do research, I go to the original, published research), the low phosphorus food was 0.97% on a dry matter basis: 1%. I've had five CKD cats over the years, and all have been stable on food made with EZC. Even with the low phos foods, many cats need a binder. If / when my cats do, I use vitamin B3 (niacinamide). Their liver values need to be tracked, but at the typical 50 - 75mg 1x or 2x per day to keep blood phos levels in the low-4s, to date, we're not aware of that having been a problem in cats. But my cats have all been stable from 2 to 4 years and all passed from something else, not kidney failure.

Best to use meats with fat content of at most 7% or 8% (or a combination that average out to that) - and that is AS FED (so you can use the nutritional labels if they have it to calculate fat. Bear in mind, the % on the label is percent of human RDA. To find the fat content, you need to take the grams of fat (total) and divided it into the serving (total grams). In the end, cats need more protein as they age, not less (also newer information than is discussed in most articles, even though the research was published by Univ of IL professors, peer reviewed AND dates back to 2013). Change takes time with new info....

Best wishes while you navigate how you want to manage this! There's a lot of conflicting info out there. In the end, my cats like the lean meats, and when they're diagnosed with a terminal illness, enjoying their meals and days - their quality of life - is far more important to me. Not everyone takes that approach. That is a personal decision we all have to manage for ourselves!

Best Regards,

Laurie

Laurie D
Food Fur Life, LLC
www.foodfurlife.com”
 
George’s Mom said:
With this post, I was just trying to see what people are actually buying for CKD/DM/(and even Acro) kitties.
Click to expand...
Hey, just thought I would pipe in with what has been working for Dixie (DM + CKD). I live in Canada, so things are a bit limited here. The lowest phosphorus (+ low carb) food I could find was Weruva's Steak Frites, which with that 0.57% phosphorus level seemed amazing. Unfortunately, it was too good to be true and it actually ended up raising Dixie's BG levels from the blues to the yellow range. Perhaps it was a food allergy or something, and others on the forum have also mentioned having some difficultly with it. But I would recommend starting with that one because it would be great if it works. Dixie went from gobbling it up to barely touching it after a few days as well.

Another one I tried is Weruva's B.F.F. Play Pate Chicken Checkmate. This one is 0.71% phosphorus. She likes this one as well, but it was hard to find it during the pandemic.

I currently use Weruva's Goody Stew Shoes (and sometimes Weruva's Stew's Clues but she doesn't like it as much). These ones are also 0.71% phosphorus, but slightly more carbs than the Chicken Checkmate. Dixie prefers this one, perhaps because it is basically a big gravy, unlike the Chicken Checkmate which is shredded chicken pieces.

With Weruva's Goody Stew Shoes and Phos-Bind medication, her phosphorus levels went from 2.12 mmol/L down to 1.59 mmol/L (normal range is 1.03 - 2.1 mmol/L, Dixie's labs are attached to the spreadsheet if you are interested), so the vet is satisfied about that. The vet's nutritionist was pushing for one of the prescription diets, but the carbs were so high so I wanted to try finding a food on my own and I'm satisfied with the results.

A big reason I went with Weruva is that they actually have all the nutrition listed out on their site. It was a pain trying to figure out the nutrition on other cat food sites. Weruva has quite a few foods that are in that 0.71-0.73 phosphorus range as well as being low carb, so there are quite a few flavours to choose from. I am looking forward to their new CKD food coming out!

I hope you can find something that works for George.
 
FarmKitty said:
Hey, just thought I would pipe in with what has been working for Dixie (DM + CKD). I live in Canada, so things are a bit limited here. The lowest phosphorus (+ low carb) food I could find was Weruva's Steak Frites, which with that 0.57% phosphorus level seemed amazing. Unfortunately, it was too good to be true and it actually ended up raising Dixie's BG levels from the blues to the yellow range. Perhaps it was a food allergy or something, and others on the forum have also mentioned having some difficultly with it. But I would recommend starting with that one because it would be great if it works. Dixie went from gobbling it up to barely touching it after a few days as well.

Another one I tried is Weruva's B.F.F. Play Pate Chicken Checkmate. This one is 0.71% phosphorus. She likes this one as well, but it was hard to find it during the pandemic.

I currently use Weruva's Goody Stew Shoes (and sometimes Weruva's Stew's Clues but she doesn't like it as much). These ones are also 0.71% phosphorus, but slightly more carbs than the Chicken Checkmate. Dixie prefers this one, perhaps because it is basically a big gravy, unlike the Chicken Checkmate which is shredded chicken pieces.

With Weruva's Goody Stew Shoes and Phos-Bind medication, her phosphorus levels went from 2.12 mmol/L down to 1.59 mmol/L (normal range is 1.03 - 2.1 mmol/L, Dixie's labs are attached to the spreadsheet if you are interested), so the vet is satisfied about that. The vet's nutritionist was pushing for one of the prescription diets, but the carbs were so high so I wanted to try finding a food on my own and I'm satisfied with the results.

A big reason I went with Weruva is that they actually have all the nutrition listed out on their site. It was a pain trying to figure out the nutrition on other cat food sites. Weruva has quite a few foods that are in that 0.71-0.73 phosphorus range as well as being low carb, so there are quite a few flavours to choose from. I am looking forward to their new CKD food coming out!

I hope you can find something that works for George.
Click to expand...

Adding these foods! This is exactly what I was hoping to see. There are some choices on here that I have overlooked because I was first focused on the carbs. However, all are under 10% carb and have better phosphorus values. Thanks @FarmKitty!

Protein is shown as ME= Metabolizable Energy and DMB = Dry Matter Basis; all Phosphorus is shown as mg/100 kcals and DMB in ( )
  • BFF play chicken Checkmate
    • Protein 31% ME (DMB 47.7%)
    • Carbs 5% ME
    • Phosphorus 129 (DMB 0.71%)
  • BFF play chicken & turkey topsy turvy
    • Protein 32% (DMB 48.1%)
    • Carbs 5%
    • Phosphorus 129 (DMB 0.71%)
  • BFF play chicken cherish
    • Protein 31% (DMB 47.1%)
    • Carbs 5%
    • Phosphorus 135 (DMB 0.71%)
  • BFF chicken & turkey tiptoe
    • Protein 31% (DMB 47.5%)
    • Carbs 5%
    • Phosphorus 136 (DMB 0.71%)
  • BFF chicken duck & turkey take a chance
    • Protein 32% (DMB 48.5%)
    • Carbs 5%
    • Phosphorus 149 (DMB 0.81%)
  • BFF play chicken & lamb laugh out loud
    • Protein 31% (DMB 47.6%)
    • Carbs 5%
    • Phosphorus 154 (DMB 0.82%)
  • BFF play chicken & duck destiny
    • Protein 32% (DMB 47.8%)
    • Carbs 5%
    • Phosphorus 165 (DMB 0.87%)
  • BFF play chicken & beef best buds
    • Protein 33% (DMB 49.3%)
    • Carbs 5%
    • Phosphorus 171 (DMB 0.91%)
  • Truluxe Glam n’ Punk (lamb & duck)
    • Protein 36.4% (DMB 54%)
    • Carbs 0.6%
    • Phosphorus 180 (DMB 0.93%)
  • Truluxe Steak Fritas (beef & pumpkin)
    • Protein 45.2% (DMB 61.9%)
    • Carbs 5.5%
    • Phosphorus 118 (DMB 0.57%)
  • Goody Stew Shoes (Chicken & Salmon)
    • Protein 28.3% (DMB 43.2%)
    • Carbs 8.5%
    • Phosphorus 132 (DMB 0.71%)
  • Stew's Clues (Turkey, Chicken, & Salmon)
    • Protein 29.9% (DMB 44.6%)
    • Carbs 9.4%
    • Phosphorus 137 (DMB 0.71%)
 
Last edited:
FarmKitty said:
I am looking forward to their new CKD food coming out!
Click to expand...

This is awesome that they’re coming out with a low option, even if it’s not a “complete” food. It will br great to have more low phos options. Agree that Weruva is great in being transparent and therefore has my attention focused squarely on them (vs other cat foods at the moment). Plus everyone seems to be using them likely for same reason.

@Suzanne & Darcy I noticed in this post that you mentioned not giving phosphorus binder unless >6 phos level. George is 6.7 but my other two kitties are eating same food - both are CKD but I don’t know phos levels. I can get them as we’ve just recently done labs. Neither is diabetic.

Anyway, is there a downside to giving phos binder if level isn’t >6? Say 4.5 for example. I did read about Hypophosphatemia. Is that the concern? Tanya’s website phosphorus page, she seems to recommend getting phos levels between 3.0 and 4.0. She does mention phos binders if >6.0. I guess I’m just trying to figure out if it’s bad to give if they are less than 6.0? Guessing it’s okay unless they are 4.0 now and could drop below 3.0. Am I on the right track here? So I just need to watch it going too low in other two kitties?
 
FarmKitty said:
Hey, just thought I would pipe in with what has been working for Dixie (DM + CKD). I live in Canada, so things are a bit limited here. The lowest phosphorus (+ low carb) food I could find was Weruva's Steak Frites, which with that 0.57% phosphorus level seemed amazing. Unfortunately, it was too good to be true and it actually ended up raising Dixie's BG levels from the blues to the yellow range. Perhaps it was a food allergy or something, and others on the forum have also mentioned having some difficultly with it. But I would recommend starting with that one because it would be great if it works. Dixie went from gobbling it up to barely touching it after a few days as well.

Another one I tried is Weruva's B.F.F. Play Pate Chicken Checkmate. This one is 0.71% phosphorus. She likes this one as well, but it was hard to find it during the pandemic.

I currently use Weruva's Goody Stew Shoes (and sometimes Weruva's Stew's Clues but she doesn't like it as much). These ones are also 0.71% phosphorus, but slightly more carbs than the Chicken Checkmate. Dixie prefers this one, perhaps because it is basically a big gravy, unlike the Chicken Checkmate which is shredded chicken pieces.

With Weruva's Goody Stew Shoes and Phos-Bind medication, her phosphorus levels went from 2.12 mmol/L down to 1.59 mmol/L (normal range is 1.03 - 2.1 mmol/L, Dixie's labs are attached to the spreadsheet if you are interested), so the vet is satisfied about that. The vet's nutritionist was pushing for one of the prescription diets, but the carbs were so high so I wanted to try finding a food on my own and I'm satisfied with the results.

A big reason I went with Weruva is that they actually have all the nutrition listed out on their site. It was a pain trying to figure out the nutrition on other cat food sites. Weruva has quite a few foods that are in that 0.71-0.73 phosphorus range as well as being low carb, so there are quite a few flavours to choose from. I am looking forward to their new CKD food coming out!

I hope you can find something that works for George.
Click to expand...
About the Steak Frites and the BG, a lot pf people report that beef tends to raise their cat’s BG. Every cat is different though so it’s definitely worth trying. It has a pretty good nutritional profile, but some say their cats won’t eat it.
 
George’s Mom said:
This is awesome that they’re coming out with a low option, even if it’s not a “complete” food. It will br great to have more low phos options. Agree that Weruva is great in being transparent and therefore has my attention focused squarely on them (vs other cat foods at the moment). Plus everyone seems to be using them likely for same reason.

@Suzanne & Darcy I noticed in this post that you mentioned not giving phosphorus binder unless >6 phos level. George is 6.7 but my other two kitties are eating same food - both are CKD but I don’t know phos levels. I can get them as we’ve just recently done labs. Neither is diabetic.

Anyway, is there a downside to giving phos binder if level isn’t >6? Say 4.5 for example. I did read about Hypophosphatemia. Is that the concern? Tanya’s website phosphorus page, she seems to recommend getting phos levels between 3.0 and 4.0. She does mention phos binders if >6.0. I guess I’m just trying to figure out if it’s bad to give if they are less than 6.0? Guessing it’s okay unless they are 4.0 now and could drop below 3.0. Am I on the right track here? So I just need to watch it going too low in other two kitties?
Click to expand...
Yes, you just don’t want the phosphorus level to drop too low. This did happen with my cat and I had to back off the phosphorus binder a bit. His phosphorus level had been so high that he was even having trouble walking and jumping (hind leg weakness due to the phosphorus interfering with nerve signals to the back legs.)
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
Yes, you just don’t want the phosphorus level to drop too low. This did happen with my cat and I had to back off the phosphorus binder a bit. His phosphorus level had been so high that he was even having trouble walking and jumping (hind leg weakness due to the phosphorus interfering with nerve signals to the back legs.)
Click to expand...
George twitches and I haven’t gotten any answers regarding (even took him to a neurologist). Has had hind leg weakness too. Always just assumed it was neuropathy from high BG (prob was) but interesting to think it could also be his phosphorus levels contributing to it.

I’m going to get all of the kitties’ blood work and go from there.
 
George’s Mom said:
Geezo. Everything in moderation they say. His brother OJ died from Anemic CKD, so I know how important it is to keep their iron up. Sounds like a lil treat of it here and there, maybe much like fish. I actually asked Food Fur Life about the phosphorus content in the EZ Complete food and got the following response:


“As to the target phosphorus, current research indicates there is a problem with the super low phosphorus "veterinary diet" foods. AAFCO minimum is 0.5% and the "low" phosphorus foods are causing hypercalcemia, which may be contributing to the calcification of tissues / organs in our CKD cats.

In the research that separated the impact of phosphorus from the impact of protein in cats (when I do research, I go to the original, published research), the low phosphorus food was 0.97% on a dry matter basis: 1%. I've had five CKD cats over the years, and all have been stable on food made with EZC. Even with the low phos foods, many cats need a binder. If / when my cats do, I use vitamin B3 (niacinamide). Their liver values need to be tracked, but at the typical 50 - 75mg 1x or 2x per day to keep blood phos levels in the low-4s, to date, we're not aware of that having been a problem in cats. But my cats have all been stable from 2 to 4 years and all passed from something else, not kidney failure.

Best to use meats with fat content of at most 7% or 8% (or a combination that average out to that) - and that is AS FED (so you can use the nutritional labels if they have it to calculate fat. Bear in mind, the % on the label is percent of human RDA. To find the fat content, you need to take the grams of fat (total) and divided it into the serving (total grams). In the end, cats need more protein as they age, not less (also newer information than is discussed in most articles, even though the research was published by Univ of IL professors, peer reviewed AND dates back to 2013). Change takes time with new info....

Best wishes while you navigate how you want to manage this! There's a lot of conflicting info out there. In the end, my cats like the lean meats, and when they're diagnosed with a terminal illness, enjoying their meals and days - their quality of life - is far more important to me. Not everyone takes that approach. That is a personal decision we all have to manage for ourselves!

Best Regards,

Laurie

Laurie D
Food Fur Life, LLC
www.foodfurlife.com”
Click to expand...
It says a lot about the Company that she replied like that. Very interesting. I would like to hear Dr. Lisa Pierson’s take on that. I know she’s not a fan of ultra low protein. Hmmm…
 
whoa, I totally missed that reply from EZ complete!

Interesting about the meat choice because I have been using chicken breast, so far, except one time where I used Turkey breast. I have no idea of the fat content but I imagine it is very low right. Chicken breast is high protein and very lean, far as I know.

Google says chicken breast is typically 20% fat. That seems high to me.
 
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