Help - UK FD vet needed

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Harrycat

Member Since 2012
Hi there,

I am having real trouble with my vet :( she's a great lass (but very new to the job) and I am going crazy here trying to get my cat stabilised. It's a REAL struggle to get them to try any insulin other than Caninsulin and my cat is reading off the scale on BS levels :( They have now upped his does to 3.5 iu's and his readings are constantly over 20 :(
I have been charged £100's for tests on everything as they want to rule out ANY possible reason for insulin resistance before they will consider changing brand. I have been in floods of tears of frustration over this. They have insisted that I change onto the diabetic cat food (which I have gone along with in the hope that it would be temporary in order to get a change of brand of insulin so I could prove to them that it made no difference to his levels). In addition to this expensive cat food I have now paid out for tests on urine culture, urine dips, a weeks stay so they can do their own curve (obviously they don't believe the ones I have done at home...) and test for pancreatitis and they now mentioned cushings tonight!!! Please don't flame me as I have been trying to work with these guys in the hope that they would get to where I believe we should be (a different brand) and I knew I would probably have to go through this whole rigmarole with any new vet anyways...Even the referrals clinic she spoke to said the same thing (and she wouldn't speak to the referrals clinic without running an additional flucosamine test - which cost me another £40 for a result that I knew anyway - excessively high!!!)
It seems very different here in the UK in that Caninsulin seems to be the only brand they will prescribe without a fight so I really need UK help in recommending me your vet! I don't care where they are - I could use a few numbers so I could ask my vet to phone them for advice if nothing else!!
God this diabetic cat thing is driving me insane - and poor!!! (my cat is not insured so this is being funded from my own pocket and we are already over £1000) grr_red
 
Not in the UK but I know several that are...let me see if I can round up a few. ;-)

Mel, Maxwell, Autumn & The Fur Gang
 
Hello,

Nobody's going to 'flame you' here. We are on your side. :smile:

There are a few UK folks currently posting here (mostly from Surrey for some reason)

A couple of us have managed to get our vets to switch from Caninsulin to Hypurin Bovine PZI. Some vets are quite amenable to this; others take more persuading....

In my own case, and that of Juliet (aka 'Dr Schrodinger') it was necessary to give evidence that the Caninsulin wasn't working well. I think vets in the UK have to prescribe a veterinary medicine before they can prescribe one made for humans. If the veterinary medicine isn't effective then they can - under the cascade system - prescribe a 'human' medicine.

I have to say, 3.5 units is a fairly large dose but not huge, and certainly not indicative of 'insulin resistance'...

You would seem to have a number of options:
1. Change your vet for one who is more sympathetic.
2. Find ways to persuade your current vet to prescribe a better insulin (ie Hypurin PZI).
3. Worst case scenario - If neither of the above apply then accept that you may have to find ways to try to make Caninsulin work better for you.

And there are probably other options I haven't thought of yet because it's late and I'm a bit tired...

Juliet's ('Dr Schrodinger's') original vet was fairly insistent on her cat Milo staying on Caninsulin, but another vet at the practice was persuaded to prescribe Hypurin PZI. Not long afterwards Juliet's cat went into remission. The original vet was amazed and delighted!!! So, if you're looking for another vet for your current vet to talk to then there might be a possibility here.....?

Do you have any mid-cycle numbers for your cat? Is he consistently staying in the 20's or dropping during the cycle? Have you worked out when the insulin starts to work ('onset'), when it peaks (blood glucose nadir/lowest number of the cycle), what his numbers are at peak, and what the duration of the insulin is? (How soon does it seem to be out of your cat's system?). Working these things out and showing this info to your vet will help enormously in showing why you need another insulin.

If you do manage to change to Hypurin PZI you will find it quite different from Caninsulin. It's a brilliant insulin but not without its quirks. It has a very long duration and some overlap so testing becomes evenmore important. But it would mean that your cat has insulin in it's system for more of the time. (Caninsulin typically has quite a short duration (in most cats)).

Eliz
 
Hello Newbie Brit! (and fellow West Midlander - I'm originally from Coventry, but now live in Surrey).

Firstly, let me tell you that I've very recently been in your shoes. It's immensely frustrating & very upsetting. My puddy, Milo, was diagnosed in November, only 4 months ago now. He is now off insulin (clinically in remission), but wouldn't have got to this stage (and probably wouldn't still be with us), had we not switched insulins.

Unfortunately, as Elizabeth has said, by law, in the UK, vets are required to prescribe Caninsulin as it is the only insulin registered specifically for feline use by the Veterinary Medicines Directorate (VMD) who are the animal equivalent of NICE - the people who decide what the NHS can prescribe for us humans.

If the vet can show to the VMD that an alternative medicine designed for human use, is the only alternative to achieve clinical benefit, then they can apply to prescribe it via the 'Cascade' system, but it seems the VMD requires that the vet-specific treatment is ruled out first.

As you probably know, Caninsulin is a canine medication & metabolism in the cat is a lot faster. It lasts for about 6 hours in a cat & is therefore very difficult to stabilise them. Some cats manage it, some don't. Mine didn't & nor did Elizabeth's. In order for me to persuade my vet to prescribe Hypurin Bovine PZI (which can last between 12 & 18 hours in the cat), I had to show them some clinical data of what Caninsulin was doing in my cat. So I learnt to test Milo's blood glucose at home. Elizabeth taught me, using a human glucose meter (available at Superdrug 'n' Boots & the like).

Learning to hometest gives you control over knowing if & when your cat needs insulin, and how much he or she needs (just like humans). By doing glucose curves at home, you save the cash that you would have spent at the the vet, and you get to see what is happening in the 'real world' when your kitty is relaxed at home rather than stressed at the vet. It will also mean that you can avoid potentially lethal 'hypos' by giving insulin only when your cat needs it. If you are hometesting, you can also safely switch your cat to a low carbohydrate diet (wet tinned food), which will help the blood glucose levels drop & reduce the need for insulin.

Hometesting & collecting data might be the easiest way to convince your vet that Caninsulin isn't lasting long enough in your kitty. We can also give you the contact details of our vets who have prescribed other insulins. The guy at my practice who prescribed Milo his Hypurin Bovine PZI has also previously prescribed Lantus (human genetically modified insulin that is the 'weapon of choice' for most people on FDMB), but he could only do this once they had tried Caninsulin, and then PZI on the poor cat in question! I can PM you his details if you want?

We are backward here in the UK. I think it's an 'Establishment' thing....but we're improving. Slowly.

Juliet (& Milo)
 
Thanks so much both of you.

Sadly I have been home testing since November (since first diagnosed) and I have a bucketload of evidence the caninsulin is not working hence why I am sooooo frustrated!!!

He is now starting in the 30's and dropping to the 20's :( so he IS responding to insulin - just not enough. I have picked up horror stories of people being asked to dose up to 6 units of canisulin before they get anywhere with their vet :(

Thankyou for your kind words as I thought I was going slowly bonkers but it's reassuring to know that other UK vets are the same! Not great news- but good to know that I am not alone in this battle!!!!

I have got to the point where I have been foot stamping (after a £340 bill for this week) and I have insisted that if the pancreatitis test comes back negative then I want a new brand of insulin (I have asked for Bovine PZI). They seem to be heading in this direction now but only after I have parted with a shedload of cash to prove that it's the insulin not anything else. I am just mad at my vets for trying on the surface to save me money (bless em) but actually costing me a fortune in all these extra tests.
I will keep at em this week once we get the panc tests back and if no joy I will PM you to ask for vet details. They are supportive on the surface but driving me insane.

(more tears)

Lol. flippin cats!!!! :-D
 
Harrycat said:
Thanks so much both of you.

Sadly I have been home testing since November (since first diagnosed) and I have a bucketload of evidence the caninsulin is not working hence why I am sooooo frustrated!!!
Click to expand...

Wow! Have you done many curves?

Harrycat said:
He is now starting in the 30's and dropping to the 20's :( so he IS responding to insulin - just not enough. I have picked up horror stories of people being asked to dose up to 6 units of canisulin before they get anywhere with their vet :(
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Err, yes, they tried that on me when he was already on 4U twice a day. :-x

What's he eating? If they've put him on the Prescription Dry stuff, then just throw it away & transition him to wet food. His numbers may start dropping. If he's already on wet food, then what kind of carb content does it have? You can calculate the % calories he gets from carbs using an online calculator like this: http://fnae.org/carbcalorie.html. Cats only need about 2% carbs in their diet, unlike us & pooches, so ideally, you should be feeding him tinned stuff with an absolute max of 10% calories by carbohydrate. My vet was giving Milo Hill's Prescription Dry when he was hospitalised with diabetic ketoacidosis. I went a bit apes*** at them as it is 27% starch! The nursie didn't understand.... :roll:

Harrycat said:
I have got to the point where I have been foot stamping (after a £340 bill for this week) and I have insisted that if the pancreatitis test comes back negative then I want a new brand of insulin (I have asked for Bovine PZI). They seem to be heading in this direction now but only after I have parted with a shedload of cash to prove that it's the insulin not anything else. I am just mad at my vets for trying on the surface to save me money (bless em) but actually costing me a fortune in all these extra tests.
I will keep at em this week once we get the panc tests back and if no joy I will PM you to ask for vet details. They are supportive on the surface but driving me insane.
Click to expand...

You might well have to do more footstamping. I can understand why they want to rule out insulin resistance if he is only dropping to the 20s, but it might be that dietary sugars are simply swamping the caninsulin. What kind of nadirs has he had in the past? Can you post up some of your data so we can have a looksee?

When do you get the panc tests back?

While you're waiting, make sure his food is low carb & you might see those numbers drop. Have a look at the spreadsheet for Milo's blood sugars in my signature. You can see how he responded to Caninsulin & how he responded to PZI.

Good luck!
 
Harrycat said:
Hi there,

I am having real trouble with my vet :( she's a great lass (but very new to the job) and I am going crazy here trying to get my cat stabilised. It's a REAL struggle to get them to try any insulin other than Caninsulin and my cat is reading off the scale on BS levels :( They have now upped his does to 3.5 iu's and his readings are constantly over 20 :(
I have been charged £100's for tests on everything as they want to rule out ANY possible reason for insulin resistance before they will consider changing brand. I have been in floods of tears of frustration over this. They have insisted that I change onto the diabetic cat food (which I have gone along with in the hope that it would be temporary in order to get a change of brand of insulin so I could prove to them that it made no difference to his levels). In addition to this expensive cat food I have now paid out for tests on urine culture, urine dips, a weeks stay so they can do their own curve (obviously they don't believe the ones I have done at home...) and test for pancreatitis and they now mentioned cushings tonight!!! Please don't flame me as I have been trying to work with these guys in the hope that they would get to where I believe we should be (a different brand) and I knew I would probably have to go through this whole rigmarole with any new vet anyways...Even the referrals clinic she spoke to said the same thing (and she wouldn't speak to the referrals clinic without running an additional flucosamine test - which cost me another £40 for a result that I knew anyway - excessively high!!!)
It seems very different here in the UK in that Caninsulin seems to be the only brand they will prescribe without a fight so I really need UK help in recommending me your vet! I don't care where they are - I could use a few numbers so I could ask my vet to phone them for advice if nothing else!!
God this diabetic cat thing is driving me insane - and poor!!! (my cat is not insured so this is being funded from my own pocket and we are already over £1000) grr_red
Click to expand...

I know a lady in Scotland whose vet refused to change her cat's insulin. Caninsulin is not a good insulin at all for cats. Anyway, she got her vet to contact Dr. Mark E. Peterson in New York, and he convinced her vet to allow her to do a trial with Lantus insulin which is working very well for her cat.

Can you ask why they suspect your cat could have cushings? Does your cat's skin tear or is very thin?
About insulin resistance, are you able to to get a blood glucose meter and test at home yourself? You would save a great deal of money by testing your cat yourself at home and the numbers that you get will be more true because most cats are stressed at the vet office so curves done at the vet are very likely skewed and showing higher than at home. I don't know why vets think that the numbers they get will be better than yours at home. I doubt the vet would agree to do the vet curves for free? maybe you could ask and say you can't afford the curves but if the vet will do them for free..... the reply should be interesting!

For food, you want to be sure to get rid of any dry food as none of it is good for diabetic cats. I don't know what foods are available by you but the others local to you will have good suggestions for low carb wet foods. There's no such thing as 'diabetic cat food'..... I would ask the vet to point out what ingredients make it good for diabetic cats. Show your vet the catinfo.org site maybe

I wish you luck in getting things sorted out with your cat.... one thing that is done by some people is to dose your cat every 8 hours instead of every 12 hours and you should get better results with the caninsulin until you are able to get onto another insulin.
 
Hello and welcome from another Surrey member... we really understand your frustration, this is one of the most difficult things many of us have ever had to deal with.

I can't add much to what Elizabeth and Juliet have said - both are very technically competent which I will never be, plus I'm not treating a diabetic cat these days - but I do congratulate you on your tenacity. FD can be a real minefield, a maze... and we think we'll never get to the end of the tunnel (sorry about the mixed metaphors but that's how it is!). One of the first things you might try to do is work out ways to keep yourself calm, sane and solvent. It may sound facile, but we go on about the importance of 'treats' for both human and cat, just little things to make this a tiny bit more manageable. As for costs, all these tests are expensive, yes - animal medicine costs an arm and a leg these days (there is no NHS for animals yet technology etc is being developed all the time which we have to pay for). Perhaps you can look at small ways you can save costs which would make at least a bit of help (many people buy test strips etc from ebay).

Other than that, what about referring your vet to this site and/or printing out some of the threads most relevant to your situation, which is mainly insulin. Up to a point I can see the vet's reasoning in ruling out other, underlying causes for the fact that your cat isn't responding to insulin as well as they'd like, but with readings above the 20s they should be looking at all avenues. You ask for phone numbers for other vets - well, I don't know how keen vets are to do that but you can certainly yell them that there's a wealth of experience and knowledge on this board, gained from years of experience of owning cats with FD and managing it successfully. That would be the first thing I'd do - get an armful of print-outs from here and present it to your vet.

The sad thing is - as others may have said, in which case sorry, I am just getting ready to go out - the vast majority of vets are not very clued-up about FD. They have about one day's training on it at vet school and many are not up-to-date with other ways of thinking. They don't approve of home-testing, only fructo tests; they want to give you diabetic food (which can be the worst thing) and their only insulin of choice is Caninsulin. Many of us have been there. Like you I was very frustrated with it all so ended up switching vets - not such a difficult thing to do, you are perfectly within your rights and you can make a written summary of treatment so far and give that to the vet to avoid duplicate tests.

Keep at it and keep us informed! Good luck,

Diana (in Surrey)
 
Thanks for the support guys. With ref to the food - I originally refused to put him onto specialist 'diabetic' food (having read the advice on here) and went with Felix which was the lowest carb (i did the calcs) (and what he was on anyway so I knew he would eat it). However with the current debacle she will not switch his brand of insulin until I have at least 'tried' the diabetic food 'to bring his sugars down' so I have him on a combo of Royal Canin diabetic wet and dry. He was on Felix, and now on diabetic - and the change of food has made no difference so I am hoping I have proved her wrong on that one. Once I eventually get him on a different insulin I will switch him off but in my current situation I have had no choice but to at least give the diabetic food a whirl, otherwise I will get nowhere with trying a different insulin!
I am interested in the science behind why dry food is so bad for them though? I know it's strongly encouraged to have wet but what's the science (i.e. Why is dry food so bad? - apart from obviously them needing to drink more!)
With ref to phone numbers etc - I have printed off many bits of info from the internet and also emailed her links but it's not sinking in (yet). Being honest I don't think it's because she isn't interested but because she doesn't have time!!! You are right though - perhaps printing off a bit more would help! I can but try!!!!

Will see what the panc tests come back as.

In terms of technicalities (how do I post my spreadsheets on here?). When he was first diagnosed he had decent curves (ish) for a newbie - but his lowest points are now in the low 20's on a dose of 3.5. In all honesty I haven't had him below 15 for a good couple of months. I was told that the diabetic food could take up to a month to work :roll: and to give it time.
 
Go to here and read Dr. Lisa's a vet that posts here web she explains why all dry food is bad for all cats, and shows the other illnesses it can cause. But in a nutshell cats are obligated carnivors, natural designed them to eat meat and only meat. Plus the domestic housecat is a original a desert animal so it has a very low thirst drive, it is designed to get its fluids from its prey. Because of this they can't drink enough water from a bowl for what their bodies truely need.

Mel, Maxwell, Autumn & The Fur Gang
 
Welcome from an Essex member to a West Midlands member! I can't add anything to the good advice that you have already received ... just support and hugs. You will get there!

Love
 
Hi,

The link to info on setting up a spreadsheet is here: http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=18207&sid=89cfd3b44cfdabb253331f88aecaf066 And people will gladly help with that if you get stuck.

Now, let's talk 'food'....

The Royal Canin Diabetic foods are really high in carbs, and absolutely not suitable for a diabetic cat.

I do understand however that you are trying to 'play along' in order to get the vet to prescribe a different insulin. But, it seems to me that although you feel forced to buy this junk, you don't actually have to feed it to the cat...... I mean, maybe the cat hates this stuff and won't touch it with a bargepole.... Well, then you'd have to feed him something else.... ;-)

I notice that you had been feeding Felix cat food. Some Felix foods, such as 'As Good As It Looks' contain 'vegetable protein extract', and some cats are really sensitive to this. It can send blood glucose levels soaring. (I keep some in my 'hypo kit' for that very reason.)

Can I ask what foods you were feeding prior to the RC Diabetic? I'd really like to have a wee scan through the ingredients lists...
 
And a quick word about insulin, too...

Caninsulin has a reputation for not being a good insulin for cats. It - typically - drops the blood glucose fast and is then out of the system too quickly. However, some cats have done well on it, and a number of cats here have gone into remission with it, several fairly recently (within the last 6 months).

But some cats do badly on Caninsulin. And it sounds like yours is one of those...
Some folks who can't get a change of insulin consider the option of giving shots more than twice a day. This is certainly a possibility for those who are at home during the day. Because of Caninsulin's short duration it can be possible to give 3 shots a day. I did this for a time (shooting at 5am, 1pm and 9pm). So, if for example, a cat is getting 3 units twice a day, their owner may intially try splitting the entire daily dose into 3 doses, ie 2 units three times a day, and see what changes that makes to the pattern.

The advantage of dosing more frequently is that the cat has insulin in it's system for more of the time. But a better way to ensure that a cat has insulin in it's system for longer is, of course, to switch to a longer-lasting insulin. And in the UK that means either Lantus, Levemir, or Hypurin Bovine PZI. In the UK the one you are most likely to get at the moment is Hypurin bovine PZI, because many vets are familiar with PZI insulins but not the others. (The reason is that there was, until recently, a PZI made for animals, but sadly that has been discontinued.)

Hypurin Bovine PZI is a very long lasting insulin. This means that when you inject one dose the previous dose will probably still be working in the cat's system. There can be considerable 'overlap'.

If you do manage to switch from Caninsulin to Hypurin PZI then I would strongly suggest that you start out at a reduced dose. You will be switching from an insulin that typically has up to 8 hours duration to an insulin that could have, say, 15 hours duration or more.... Hypurin usually produces long, gentle curves. The time of the insulin peak (lowest BG number) can vary quite a bit from cat to cat, but around +5 to +6 seems fairly 'typical'.

With Hypurin hometesting becomes more important than ever, especially in the beginning, while you're figuring out how it is working in your cat's system. The long duration and overlap may mean that you see lower and lower preshot numbers, and you may be suddenly faced with a preshot number that is much lower than you are used to, or even a number that is too low for you to give insulin at all.

Do you have any recent curve numbers for your cat (Is he 'Harry?' And what's your name?)

Eliz
 
Aw Elizabeth...I'm not all that fast. :oops: Just bored while waiting to test Mz Autumn again and see if she is coming up from her 30 at +6 today. so just strolling around the board today. Since she has decided to keep me from doing any real housework for awhile at least.

Mel, Maxwell, Autumn & The Fur Gang
 
Thanks Elizabeth. You posted up before when I was struggling with the Felix and I took him off the 'good as it gets' and put him on the normal Felix. I checked the carb content of this with a checker tool a while back and it was around 2%. I might just take your advice and not feed him the diabetic food any more..it occurred to me after his last hospital stay that I could actually take him off it this week after professing to try it - thankyou.
I will have a go at uploading the s/sheet. I will warn you now it's not great reading. I don't test before every dose (at £1 a test - oh yes - I've got the Alphatrak...and the test strips are appalingly expensive - however the vets originally advised that I had the same meter as them to cover any discrepancies....again I wish I had stuck to my guns but you live and learn).
I have tested before each does of 4u this weekend and he's been at or around 30 each time :(
Am waiting on a callback from the vets regarding the panc tests. He looks ropey today.
I could on occasion dose 3 times a day as sometimes I work from home but it's not consistent. I work 4 days a week and I have 2 kids at preschool age and a horse to look after. Hence my life is a bit full on - even without my sugarcat!!
Thanks again

Jackie
 
Hi Jackie,

nice to know you name!

The best thing you could do for Harry at the moment is to take him off the 'diabetic' dry food. Which RC wet food is he eating?

Harrycat said:
Thanks Elizabeth. You posted up before when I was struggling with the Felix and I took him off the 'good as it gets' and put him on the normal Felix. I checked the carb content of this with a checker tool a while back and it was around 2%. I might just take your advice and not feed him the diabetic food any more..it occurred to me after his last hospital stay that I could actually take him off it this week after professing to try it - thankyou.
Click to expand...

The list of ingredients for the RC dry diabetic food are: Chicken meal, corn gluten meal, barley, wheat gluten, tapioca, powdered cellulose, soy protein isolate, natural flavors, chicken fat, dried chicory root, fish oil, psyllium seed husk, potassium chloride, calcium sulfate, vegetable oil, salt, fructooligosaccharides...." The dry stuff will be keeping his glucose levels elevated, so the short acting caninsulin will be having a rough time trying to lower his levels.
Elizabeth's right (as always!) - you don't have to feed it to him. It's never wise to lie to the vet, but you also don't have to follow their advice if you doubt its worth, either.

Harrycat said:
I will have a go at uploading the s/sheet. I will warn you now it's not great reading.
Click to expand...

Cool. It's great you're doing this. Don't worry about it being patchy or having high numbers at this point.

Harrycat said:
I don't test before every dose (at £1 a test - oh yes - I've got the Alphatrak...and the test strips are appalingly expensive - however the vets originally advised that I had the same meter as them to cover any discrepancies....again I wish I had stuck to my guns but you live and learn).
Click to expand...

Poor Harry really needs a test before each shot. It might be worth getting a human meter in the long run? If you buy the strips over ebay, they work out a lot cheaper.
I have a spare OneTouch Ultra if you would like it? I think I have 50 strips to go with it (maybe 100, I'll have to check). You can pick up 100 strips for £20 from ebay: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/One-Touch...ity_Disability_Medical_ET&hash=item3ccfae5e69.

PM me your address if you would like it? There's no point paying a quid for a test!

Harrycat said:
I have tested before each does of 4u this weekend and he's been at or around 30 each time :(
Am waiting on a callback from the vets regarding the panc tests. He looks ropey today.
Click to expand...

:cry: I'll keep my bits crossed. Let us know how he gets on?

Harrycat said:
I could on occasion dose 3 times a day as sometimes I work from home but it's not consistent. I work 4 days a week and I have 2 kids at preschool age and a horse to look after. Hence my life is a bit full on - even without my sugarcat!!
Click to expand...

You certainly have your hands full without Harry being so poorly! Please drop me a line if you would like the meter. I can get it in the post to you a.s.a.p.
 
Bless you - thanks :)

Can't upload s/sheet yet as it won't email from my work pC to my home one but techhie hubs is home later and will set him onto the task. :lol:

I have just spoken to the vets - the Panc test came back within normal levels (bye bye £80 for summat we already knew...sort of!! lol)

They have asked me to try him on a fresh bottle on caninsulin that they supplied to me on Friday (I order mine over the internet as they charge a disgusting mark up at the vets, however on this occasion I took another bottle from them to avoid a prescription charge as I don't want him to stay on caninsulin!) and to call them again on Weds with the results. I will not change his food in between now and then as otherwise I won't know what has worked. (and I am a crap liar...ha ha).

I will try him on the fresh bottle and call them on Weds but we might just be getting closer.

I would love to try a cheaper meter!! thanks so much :) The alphatrak is £40 for 50 strips, plus the cost of the lancets it really does work out at about £1 every test so a test, plus a needle and the insulin, & my credit card is bleeding. I was sat earlier trying to balance the books and it's painful reading. :o :shock: The joke of it is my vet keeps telling me that going on the proper diabetic food should save me money on insulin. I have had to explain to the vet that the cat food is far more expensive than the insulin!! Insulin is £3.47 cheapest per phial (before prescription charges)- and that lasts roughly a month - the cat food works out around £50 a month. Go figure.

Out of interest - what are you feeding your diabetic cats in the UK? I used to buy Felix just out of habit but if I am switching him off I am happy to try anything? It needs to be readily available if possible though as I have another cat who stays (belongs to my mother who lives just down the road and the cats choose houses to stay in - although they have stopped leaving food out so Harry can't have it!) Ben cat turns up as he knows the regular food times at my house so I feed them at the same time and currently it's maddening trying to make sure the right one eats the right food!!! Ben cat will not eat if he is shut out whilst Harry cat eats, and Ben cat is too old to miss meals. I have tried putting Ben in another room to eat but he won't - he scoffs it when next to Harry though. Blinkin' cats!! So In an ideal world they would both have the same so then I don't have to supervise every mouthfull (in between the kids throwing weetabix at each other at breakfast time).

Yup - life is busy and full on here. I have a 4yr old and a nearly 2 yr old, and a horse on DIY livery, plus a job (which I am supposed to be doing now.........). Plus I have to re-interview for my job soon as we are going though a merger so its all good fun......not!! :lol:
 
Harrycat said:
Bless you - thanks :)

Can't upload s/sheet yet as it won't email from my work pC to my home one but techhie hubs is home later and will set him onto the task. :lol:
Click to expand...

Excellent! Glad you have someone well trained to do it for you!

Harrycat said:
I have just spoken to the vets - the Panc test came back within normal levels (bye bye £80 for summat we already knew...sort of!! lol)
Click to expand...


This is good news!

Harrycat said:
I will try him on the fresh bottle and call them on Weds but we might just be getting closer.
Click to expand...

Closer to what? Convincing them to switch insulins? If she's a newly qualified vet, she may not have had experience of the Cascade system yet, (or FD), so this may explain her hesitation...

Harrycat said:
The joke of it is my vet keeps telling me that going on the proper diabetic food should save me money on insulin. I have had to explain to the vet that the cat food is far more expensive than the insulin!! Insulin is £3.47 cheapest per phial (before prescription charges)- and that lasts roughly a month - the cat food works out around £50 a month. Go figure.
Click to expand...
She's wrong there. Low carb wet food will save you money on insulin! Send me your address via PM & I'll post it off to you with the strips. I may have some lancets somewhere too...


Harrycat said:
Out of interest - what are you feeding your diabetic cats in the UK? I used to buy Felix just out of habit but if I am switching him off I am happy to try anything? It needs to be readily available if possible though as I have another cat who stays (belongs to my mother who lives just down the road and the cats choose houses to stay in - although they have stopped leaving food out so Harry can't have it!) Ben cat turns up as he knows the regular food times at my house so I feed them at the same time and currently it's maddening trying to make sure the right one eats the right food!!! Ben cat will not eat if he is shut out whilst Harry cat eats, and Ben cat is too old to miss meals. I have tried putting Ben in another room to eat but he won't - he scoffs it when next to Harry though. Blinkin' cats!! So In an ideal world they would both have the same so then I don't have to supervise every mouthfull (in between the kids throwing weetabix at each other at breakfast time).
Click to expand...

Have a look at these links & it will give you an idea of what is available. To be honest, if the cats aren't hugely fussy, then I would go for Butcher's Classic. You can buy it in most supermarkets for £2.50 for 6 cans & it's great for all cats to eat at 8.8% carbs.

http://www.pfoetchenbasar.de/200-futtermarken-info/

http://binkyspage.tripod.com/nonusfd.html

I feed my kitties a mixture of (mostly German) brands these days (ordered over the internet - it's cheap & premium quality), but they get Toplife Chicken Dinner (from Asda) too occasionally. This is about £12 for 4kg. It's made in collaboration with Bozita (Swedish brand) which you can order from UK companies.
Have a look at http://www.zooplus.co.uk & http://www.viovet.co.uk/Pet_Foods_Diets-Cats/c233_235/category.html. Natures menu is also great (if the cats will eat it!) but it's a lil pricey.
 
Hi Jackie,

Do take Juliet up on her offer of the glucose meter! The test strips for the One Touch Ultra are always available on Ebay. And it's really important that you do tests before every insulin shot, and also check if the blood glucose levels are dropping as a result of removing the RC diabetic food. I know you don't think his numbers will drop but one of these days that boy might just surprise you! ;-)

As to what people in the UK feed their diabetic cats, well that varies quite a lot according the budgets people have and the number of cats they need to feed.

When I joined FDMB 6 years ago most UK people were feeding Whiskas or Felix in jelly, or Butcher's Classic; and the latter is still a popular choice, especially for those with lots of feline mouths to feed. There are other supermarket foods too that are pretty low carb, for example Sheba 'tender terrines', and - going up the price scale - Lily's Kitchen, and Thrive cat food (the latter in tiny tins with a huge price tag...).

But now that Zooplus is in the UK the choices have opened up a bit more. Bozita cans and tetra packs are quite popular now. (And some garden centres and pet stores do the tetra packs as well.) Grau 'grain free' is also good, but pricey unless you get the large cans.

Some of us buy online from Germany. The Germans make brilliant high quality and low carb cat food. (And those of us who don't speak any German and have to use 'Google translate' to understand the websites have the opportunity to rock with laughter at some of the truly hilarious translations! Which is a huge plus! :lol: )

Some people feed their cats raw food, or supplement the cat's diets with raw food.

I started out feeding Butcher's Classic after Bertie was diagnosed, but gradually shifted toward higher protein and lower carb foods.; partly because my cats were getting old and I wanted them to keep some good muscle mass. I now buy some stuff online from Zooplus and some from German stores. And I supplement with raw meat (when I remember to get it out of the freezer.... :roll: )

Eliz
 
Ahh grand :) ta.

I have no problem ordering online so will have a looksie. Hubs speaks a bit of german so you never know!!

Did the s/sheet work??

Jax
 
Elizabeth and Bertie said:
Harrycat said:
Did the s/sheet work??
Click to expand...

Yes, can see the sheet!
(And that curve back in December looked pretty good too...)
Click to expand...

I can see it too.

Looks like December was the lowest set of numbers. Was he eating Felix back then? If he switched after this curve, it would appear that his numbers have gone up since being put on the 'Diabetic Diet' :sad: . Time to go back to the wet!
 
Yes in Dec his curve was pretty much spot on (on the Felix) but we started struggling after that. I think the vet was puzzled as he was spot on to start with - and then just gradually started getting higher and she was convinced it was the antibiotics helping hence the numerous tests..... She asked me to try the diabetic food after things steadily started getting worse.
Ho hum. Roll on Weds.
 
Update:

The meter has arrived!!! Many thanks :) I have already had a play and I think I have figured out how it works. I will test alongside the alphatrak for a bit as I am confident with the Alphatrak and familiar - just need to get used to the one touch. The postie has just literally dropped it off and I've been playing with the fake blood thing ('control solution') that the Alphatrak thingy comes with so I know how it works without stabbing the cat :lol:

As far as Harry cat goes I have just got a reading of 15.5!!! Which is fabbo (being as he has his injection of 3.5 at 0700 today that's not too bad!! The secret? I gave him felix today :lol: :lol: Well, I swapped his food with my other cats - so Benny had diabetic and Harry had the felix - therefore early conclusion would be that the diabetic food was keeping him falsely high (which we sort of knew eh?). The readings were coming down in the last couple of days as I had not been so strict in ensuring that he ate the diabetic stuff so I knew it was going to happen. ( the 2 cats swap bowls). He has also been looking better in himself since he came back from the vets and has been at home :-D

I spoke to my vet yesterday and explained that I still wanted to try the PZI ( She is pushing to try a cushings test first but I refused for now - besides anything else I cannot afford it!!). However I told her in the meantime I want to take him off the diabetic food. After I listed the ingredients you highlighted above she agreed it was worth a try :) I am happier doing it with her fully informed ;-) It could take her a couple of weeks to sort out the PZI as the practice has never had to do it before so in the meantime I will change his food, and test before every shot as at a dose of 3.5 I am worried it's over cooking it. Go steady eh?

I feel more positive today :smile:

Ok I know 15 is still too high for the middle of the day and a dose of 3.5 is on the high side, but I feel a tiny bit of progress has been made with the vet - getting her down the road that I wanted to be on anyways :)

Will keep you informed!!!!
 
That sounds like real progress, Jackie. :smile:

So, that 15.5(279) was about five hours after his insulin shot? (what in FDMB-speak we call '+5')?
Did you test him before the shot? Just wondering what his morning pre-shot number was..?

And if it is the change of food that has made that difference you may see the numbers continue to drop a bit over the next couple of days.

Although 3.5 units is higher than the 'typical' cat's dose it is not particularly high. Some cat's just need more insulin than others. But you may need to be prepared to reduce that dose if Harry's preshot numbers (or indeed his nadir numbers - lowest number of the cycle, probably occuring around +4.5 to +5 with Caninsulin) get sufficiently low to warrant that.

I'm so glad you're feeling better about things today!
 
Nice one Jackie! :-D

Yep, you're right, go steady on the insulin now you're switching his diet. It'll be interesting to see what the Felix can do on its own. We may see those preshot numbers come down further over the next few days.

Next step, set up spreadsheet? Can your other half do it?
 
28 this morning, 15.8 at lunch - not bad!!! And that's on the Felix

I have googled the Bozita and will order some in. I am assuming I go for the jelly and not the gravy ones. Something weird is making me chuckle about feeding him Reindeer and elk....That's kinda cool :cool: :roll:
 
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