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Theadorable_7

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It's currently 9:30 pm. I gave Theo his insulin shot at 6;00pm without thinking. He didnt eat dinner. I was worried because I read the pamplet and it said if he didn't eat, dont give him the shot but it was too late. he hasn't been eating a lot lately. I ran out and bought a glucose tester. I tested him an hour ago (8:30) and it was 4.1 I just tested now and it is 1.7!! he gets caninsulin and he takes 4 units twice a day at 6am and 6pm. I just put some food down for him and he is eating. he also just drank some water. I'm going to give him some corn syrup because he should probably have some... i'm worried. he is acting normally right now.... any other suggestions!?!
 
Hi,

How is he doing now? Have you tested again? I'm not familiar with the European numbers so will go to the world ss and see if it will translate for me.

Melanie & Racci
 
Do you have karo syrup or maple syrup or anything sweet? You can rub a teeny bit on his gums to bring him up and feed a little high carb food. Keep checking him. You should also check his ketones. Do you have diastix to check his urine?

Melanie & Racci
 
Hello, i gave him some corn syrup and food and i tested again at 10pm. It went up to 2.4. I just tested again (30 minutes later) and it is 3.4. it seems to be getting higher and higher which is nice to see. He is supposed to have his insuline shot at 6am which is in 7 hours from now. How do I know if I should give him the shot? what is a good number to see before giving him the shot? I want to put together a spreadsheet too. I need to have all the info in one place. I don't know if he has keytones... when he last went to the vet he didn't... but I don't know if that can change quickly.... I'm new to this :(
 
To get American numbers, multiply by 18.

So, your last number would be a 61. This is a safe number but it is important to keep testing to make sure he stays up. Test again in 1/2 an hour, OK? You guys are doing fine. I am not very familiar with caninsulin, but usually for newbies we suggest not shooting if the number is below 150 until you have collected some data on how your kitty responds.

Keep testing and posting your numbers, OK?
 
i can't stay with you and am not familiar with caninsulin, but giving carbs and retesting in 20 minutes is the thing to do. repeat until you are above 100. i don't know what the curve is on caninsulin but will try to find someone who knows how long you'll have to monitor.

for the next shot, you can test the BG and post here to ask if that's a safe number to shoot.

be right back.
 
there's no one on at the moment that uses caninsulin - i can tell you that almost no one uses it anymore on cats. it was developed for dogs (canine insulin) and isn't appropriate for cats. it's fast in and harsher than the longer-acting insulins. cats have a very fast metabolism and respond very differently to diabetes and insulin than dogs.

you will have much better success managing your cat's diabetes if you switch to Lantus, Levemir or ProZinc. We have a lot of users of all of them. Studies have shown Lantus as having the best success rate for cats healing and going off of insulin, but all of those insulins are good - different cats do well on different ones and any would be a good choice.

i think you are offline now, but now that you've found this site, i'd encourage you to ask lots of questions and let us help you get your cat to a better spot. vets often don't deal with cats with diabetes that frequently - all of us here have or have had diabetic cats and we do diabetes 24/7.

we can help you.

post here in the morning with your preshot BG number and hopefully someone will be able to give you appropriate advice. i am a lantus user and don't have experience with caninsulin, but with lantus we tell new people not to shoot if they have a number below 200.
 
Hi,

You can go to the drugstore or order online regular urine test strips to test for ketones. Keto-Stix is one brand. There are a few different ones. All you have to do is catch some of the urine in a small bowl or cup or ladle, stick the strip in and get the colored spot wet, wait 15 seconds holding it against the color chart and you can see if he has ketones and how much. It's very easy. If your cat has more than trace ketones he probably will have to go right to the vet. Post here with the 911 icon. You should especially test when he is very low or very high.

I couldn't find that world spreadsheet before but will try again and get you the link. You should keep track of the tests and once you have your ss done link it to your signature so we can help you easier.

Try and keep him eating and drinking regularly and keep an eye on his glucose to make sure he is going up and not down. That's really all you can do right now but do buuy those ketone strips asap so you can get that worry off your mind and know he is safe. I would guess his dose is probably too high for him to have gone that low but don't know your insulin. I thought that was a dog insulin? Most people use Lantus, Levemir and PZI or Prozinc for cats. Those are the insulins of choice.

Have you changed his diet lately? Eating is extremely important for diabetics. If you have to he might like baby food meats or something different. That's a priority. Sometimes I have to coax Racci and I sit with her and put it practically in her face telling her how great it is, etc. Watering the canned food down a lot and making it liquidy like almost a thick soup works too and I warm it in the microwave to make it a little warm.

Melanie & Racci
 
Thank you Noreen! I'm running back and forth. I won't be able to stay much longer. Just getting things ready while waiting to do another test on Racci so I can go to sleep. I'll save that link also. I still didn't get a chance to go get it. Thanks also to Melissa. That's handy to know -18.

Melanie & Racci
 
ok, so I'm trying not to be overwhelmed by all the information. I tested Theo again at 11:15 and it was 3.7. I gave him some more dry food and he ate it. Only a little tiny handful... His last reading was at 10;30 and it was 3.4. I'm going to test again in a little bit.

As for everything else above, I'm not sure why he is on caninsulin... it's just what the vet put him on. Now that I have the glucose meter I will be able to get a better handle on what his numbers are. When it comes to food, the vet put him on Medi-Cal - Diabetic food (dry). He eats 2/3 a cup a day. 1/3 in the morning and 1/3 in the evening. I give him little snacks in between because he seems to be starving all the time. However, the last couple of days he has been throwing up and it could be as a result of changing his food a little bit because his brother Bailey was throwing up a LOT on Thurs/Fri. He went to the vet and had xrays and blood work and he is healthy with the exception of the infection in his mouth and needing two teeth removed. So, I have been giving them both a combination of wet food and dry food mixed together. That was since Saturday... so basically only 24 hours. Both have now stopped throwing up.

Food for them is such a hard thing for me. Both had crystals in their bladder when they were two and Theo had to have surgery (emergency) because he had a blockage and it was near death for him. At that time I was feeding them the dry friskies and I had no idea what it was doing to them. I'm always so worried that something like that will happen again. They ate well the last 5 years and Theo was diagnosed diabetic in January. He had been suffering for a while before I really figured it out. It was the classic weight loss and drinking water and then he started walking funny (on his hocks). Then I realized something wsa REALLY wrong. I feel terrible for letting it go on for so long.

ANYWAY, is it time to test again? I'll try it again and see what his new numbers are.

Ok... so it's midnight and his number is 5.2 now. No idea where this will put me by morning but I guess I'll find out!

Everythign is new and it's all a little worry-some when things like this happen. I won't give him more food now until morning and if he doesn't eat then i won't give him the shot. When i get up i'll test his blood and see what it's at. If it's an 8.0 or more I believe I can give him his regular shot ... assuming that he eats!

That's all I can do for tonight. Thank you for all your advice and help. I appreciate it so much.

PS: I know this post is all over the place and isn't really clear but we'll chat more in the morning. i gotta get some sleep or I won't be a good mommy to Theo when I gotta poke him again in 6 hours :) Thanks!
 
Have you looked at Janet and Binky's food chart for other alternatives for feeding?
Here is the link in case you haven't seen it yet.
http://binkyspage.tripod.com/CanFoodNew.html
DC also had surgery when he was younger for crystals.
I feed DC primarily Friskies low carb wet food.
I also use some EVO and Wellness low carb food when he'll eat it. He's a very finicky eater.
You never did say where you were from, so I'm not sure what you have available for food.
By you saying it's midnight, I'm assuming you are in Canada in BC, but I could be wrong.
The 5.2 is probably a pretty safe number 6 hours after the shot.
The caninsulin should be past it's peak now.
 
I have logged into the site from my iphone so I'll keep it on all night and see if I can see any posts by the morning. Thank you everyone for your help!!
 
Yes. I'm in BC. Kamloops to be exact. I always forget that everyone is from all over the world :). I will look at the food chart tomorrow. I have been scared to try a different food because i wasn't able to check his numbers before. Now I can!
 
Theadorable_7 said:
Yes. I'm in BC. Kamloops to be exact. I always forget that everyone is from all over the world :). I will look at the food chart tomorrow. I have been scared to try a different food because i wasn't able to check his numbers before. Now I can!
Click to expand...
I'm in Alberta, just north of Edmonton.
 
I know we've thrown a lot of info at you (and there's more to come tomorrow!) - don't worry about learning it all right away, just keep posting and we will help you.

For now, test in the morning before your shot time if you can, and post the number here. If it's below 200 you probably shouldn't shoot. So glad you are hometesting! Great job tonight!
 
His morning number is 9.1. I think if he eats normal breakfast I should be ok to give him the shot. So far he is eating and he had a drink if water. He went to the box twice last night. Two diharrea and one pee.
 
Now you are monitoring his BG you will be able to see what canninsulin does, it is a horrible insulin for cats. Crashes them down very quickly and generally starts wearing off at around +4 leaving the cat in high numbers for most of the day. I would definitely change insulins if I were you (and I was you Vyktor was started on canninsulin).

Please go back and edit your original post and take the 911 down now that the emergency has passed.

BTW good job running out for the glucometer and getting tests straight up like that - very good work :-D
 
It is to be expected that his morning BG is higher than you would like. After all, the corn syrup and dry food is in his system.

As you are in Canada - it is possible to use lantus, levimer or even prozinc. What I suggest is that you talk with your vet about changing to one of these insulins and if the vet is unwilling, then you need to shop around for another vet who will work with you.

I also suggest you go to the forums on here for each of these insulins, so that you can learn more about them and how they work. It will help you when you talk to the vet, to tell the vet which one you want.

FWIW - lantus and levimer are very similar insulins - in that they are both human insulins, many people follow the tight regulation protocols and you use U-100 insulin syringes - (get ones with 1/2 unit markings).

prozinc - is made for the animals, you can still follow a tight regulation, but it is a little more forgiving and allows a bit more leeway in dosage. You typically use U-40 insulin syringes - however because they don't have 1/2 unit markings and if you end of microdosing you need that - you need to get the U-100 syringes AND convert the dose according to the chart: http://gorbzilla.com/conversion_calculator.htm

It's easy to do and will come in very handy.

All three insulins, are longer insulins than caninsulin, meaning they should last up to 12 hours unlike caninsulin. No matter what insulin you get, follow the mantra - start low and go slow - meaning start at a low dose 1 unit or less and when adjusting dose, do it in 1/4, or 1/2 unit increments - that's the go slow part.

And diet is a key factor as well. we recommend wet/canned food diets that are under 10 carbs - see Binky's chart for details. And this is good to feed all your cats with.

Hope this helps.
 
It wouldn't surprise me at all if the diarrhea and vomiting is due to the food and then your diabetic has that dog's insulin to deal with on top of it. I use premium foods (canned) Wellness & Natures Valley but you can use whatever fits your pocketbook that they like as long as it's wet and has low carbs. I don't think I gave you this link last night:
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B8Uu8g1u8Su9YTgxNGE1MDItM2MyMC00Y2Y3LWI4ODMtMzhkYTkxOGM4NThk/edit
That's another food list. The 3rd column is the carb list.

I used to have terrible crystal issues with my boy Midnight and I believe its ash you want to look out for. You also want to make sure they drink lots of water. A fountain would be great to have if you don't. It encourages them to drink.

You really do want to feed them wet food for both conditions.

Melanie & Racci
 
Vomiting may be pancreatitis, which is more likely when you don't have enough insulin being used and chronic hyperglycemia (high blood sugar).

Vomiting can be a whole host of other things, but your 1st step is to get the insulin dosing tamed, preferably on a gentle long-acting insulin such as Lantus, Levemir, ProZinc, or PZI, which work throughout all or most of the 12 hours between shots.
 
i was not told punkin had crystals, but he did have bladder infections once or twice a year for probably 8 years, even when i had him on the prescription "easy on your bladder" dry formula. i always fed my cats dry food.

the exception has been that a year ago when we found this site, i switched him to canned low carb food. not a single bladder problem since then. as you read on http://www.catinfo.org cats do not have a good thirst mechanism and they need more water than they will typically drink with a dry food diet. canned food with water added is good all around for kitties. i won't ever give a cat dry food again after i have seen the changes in both of my cats from eating canned food.

i hate the smell, hate cleaning the cans, hate everything about them - except that the canned food is obviously what my cat needs. for that i love it. :-D
 
Thank you everyone. I haven't had a chance to read all the links yet but there is a LOT to consider. I just came home for lunch to test him. He is now 3.1 and he had a little snack. I can definitely see how he is up and down from one extreme to the other. That must be really hard on him. I have a lot of work to do to sort all this out but I feel so much better now that I have the glucose checker. Do you think that if he has a reading of 3.1 at 12;00 p.m. and his next shot/meal is at 6:00 pm (6hours from now) that giving him a snack is a good thing? I'm obviously new at this and I suppose every cat is different but I assume his numbers will start to increase over the next 6 hours. I'm sure there is a chart and someone has given me the link and I promise I'll get to them soon. When I get home at 4 today I'll read the rest of the posts to come.

I'll see about changing the 911 on the original post now. Thank you everyone! I'd like to change to a wet food diet... the cost isn't really an issue. I'm spending over 40.00 every couple/three weeks on dry food. Wet stuff can't be that much more...

Thanks again!!!

PS: my name is Jolene :) Theo is 7 years old and he's black and white and cute as heck. I'd put a picture up but not sure how yet :)
 
Of course give him snacks. Many people here feed "mini" meals - which are small amounts of food several times a day. Me - I feed mine regular meals and leave the canned food out all day, so that they can graze and eat what and the amount they want when hungry.
 
The only time I restrict Racci's eating is 2 hours before a test so I can get a good reading. She eats 4 or 5 wet small meals a day. It's good for diabetics to eat often and I water down her food to a thick soup consistency so she gets lots of water.

Melanie
 
Hi everyone. Need some assistance now.... I tested Theo just now and he is 4.1. In an hour he should be eating and it would be shot time but I think that number is too low for a shot, correct? I'm in bed laying with him because he is shaking since I took the test. I think he's scared if it now because ive done it quite a few times in the last 24 hours. Could shaking be a symptom of something else?
 
If I'm doing the math correctly a 4.1 = 74 and as you are so new to this process, I would suggest, test him before shot time and if he is still low like this, then skip the shot tonight.

BG>27.6
BG 22.2-27.6
BG 16.7-22.1
BG 11.2-16.6
BG 5.6-11.1
BG 1-5.5

OK for everyone to follow - here is the color chart.

What this means for you, is that he is in the green, which is honestly an excellent place to be. However, it gets tricky, because being new and not having enough data, you don't know what to do. So, when he is in the green like this - DO NOT give insulin. The reason, you don't want to risk a hypo situation at this point.

So, as long as he under 11, we suggest waiting, testing to see if he goes higher, but not to give insulin. Not until you have more data on board and better understand how to shoot low numbers. Plus you're using caninsulin, which, we've already said, is a faster insulin and one that can cause him to go lower than you want.
 
Sorry his number is 4.7. I called the vet and they said not to give him the shot and to keep checking him. If his number drops below 3 to give him corn syrup. He doesn't want to eat right now at all.
 
how many hours ago did he have his last shot? and how much was given. I see from your first post, that he is on 4 units of caninsulin? Did he receive 4 units and when? - what his body is stating is that this is TOO MUCH insulin for him. Did you talk to the vet about changing his insulin? He will definitely need a reduction, but I must ask, how did you arrive at giving 4 units?

As this is a lot of insulin to start a cat with. Typically we start at 1 unit or less. And I would suggest when you do administer insulin again, to start over at 1 unit. but caninsulin again isn't ideal for cats - so you will want to get one of the others already discussed.

Instead of giving corn syrup which will spike him up and drop him quickly - do you have any canned food with gravy? If not, can you get some -

Feed him 2-3 teaspoons of gravy only, this will raise him slower and gentler than corn syrup. And by not givng him the food pieces, you don't have to worry about filling him up too fast.
 
The Caninsulin should begin wearing off, it it hasn't already. Just be reasurring and calm to help your cat be calm.

Also, please read this page carefullyHow to treat HYPOS - THEY CAN KILL! Print this Out!! and then compare the symptoms to what you have observed today. He got rather low atfor a bit, which can happen when the dose is not optimal for the cat.

Also, when the body isn't used to lower numbers, even a drop of 5.5 (100 in US) points can be enough to trigger the liver to compensate by dumping more glucose into the blood stream. It is very common in that case for the next few glucose levels to be unusually high. This will calm down in a couple of days.
 
Now that I'm looking back At the last 2 months I'm thinking his dose is too high. When we initially went to the vet he stayed there over night with Iv. When he went home the started me on 3.5 units. Then after 10 days we went for a fructosamine test. Then they told me to increase it. He was never started on a smaller dose. He had a shot just after 6am. It's now 5:30 pm. His number this morning was 9.1 and he ate so I gave him the shot (4 units). I didn't check his blood sugar before last night so numbers are all new but I'm starting to realize quickly that something is really off. He stopped shaking now and we are just cuddling in mybed. I do have a can of chicken friskies with gravy. He's not interested but I will try again soon. Just trying to think if I have answered all he questions. I'm on my phone so it's a bit of a challenge. :). Thanks for your help!
 
So now we are eating one dry kibble at a time. He was not interested in eating the wet food. I am hand feeding him one nugget at a time lol. I think he thinks they are treats! At least he is eating now.
 
It's now 9:30 pm and I just checked his levels and it is 12.5... Now I'm confused... I wasn't expecting it to go up so much. I didn't give him the shot like normal at 6pm because he didn't eat and he had low numbers leading up to it and was shaking. If he will eat now, should I give him the shot. Should I only give him one unit instead of 4 though? What are high numbers.... ughhh. I know you guys have probably sent me this information. Let go see if I can find out...
 
I've done some more reading. I found the conversion chart. I don't think 12.5 is too high and warrants an insulin shot... I'm going to wait. I'll check him again in a couple hours and see what it is then. I don't want to start giving insulin shots at crazy hours and then have to maintain that schedule... This whole process is overwhelming at times :(
 
I should add that this is the most awake and alert that I've seen Theo in a while... He's being social and communicating again. He has always been a chatty fella but lately he has been quiet as a mouse and hiding in the closet. i'm seeing a big difference in him by not giving him the shot tonight...
 
Hi Jolene! It is possible that Theo has been dropping too low from the insulin and then bouncing back up - in fact I think it is likely based on the numbers you have seen since you started testing. What would you think about reducing the dose for your next shot? I know nothing about caninsulin, but for most insulins we suggest starting out at 1 unit twice daily and increasing slowly from there if needed.

I would definitely recommend you just skip tonight's shot and start over tomorrow so you don't get too off schedule.

Can you talk to your vet about a different insulin? For now, since caninsulin is all you have, why don't you try 1 unit (once he is high enough for a shot) and see what that does?

I am so so glad you started hometesting!! And I know all this info is overwhelming, but you are doing great and this will get a lot easier.
 
Good Morning everyone. So it's 5;30 am and I just tested Theo. His number is 14.5. He is gobbling food down and jumped out of bed. He's actually been pawing at me the last hour to get up and feed him. This is a total change (and back to his old self). Normally he stays in bed for hours after I get up. Anyway, he is eating all his food right now ... which on the flip side I hope doesn't make him sick. In any event, I'm just going to give him one unit of insulin this morning. Unfortunately I won't be able to come home until noon to check his levels. I think he should be ok though....
 
Kibble is probably what raised the am glucose so high - even a little goes a long way, and it starts kicking in a few hours after being eaten. Do NOT attempt to compensate for that; it will wear off.

Tonight, check and post the number you get before giving insulin. Folks here will be able to advise you.
 
Me again! So this morning it was 14.5 and I gave him only one unit of insulin (instead of the 4 he was receiving previously). I just came home at lunch to check him and his level is 6.8. I have him a little snack because he's starvin. I'll check his level again before our scheduled 6pm shot and see what he's up to. If he's got a high number again I'll give him one unit again. I think 4 was WAY too much. now that I'm starting to collect all this data I need to put it down somewhere that I can make sense of it. I know that you've all sent me some links to speadsheets so tonight hopefully I'll get a chance to start filling it in.
 
is there any chance you can talk to the vet about using a different insulin - such as lantus, levimer or prozinc? and good that you lowered the dose.
 
We're back! I just checked him and he is at 11.7. I put down some food but he's not interested in eating it. If he doesn't eat, I don't give him the shot (I know that much now)...The last few days he has been getting a mixture of wet and dry food. There is no wet right now so I think he's not going to eat. I'll go get some wet food now. Maybe then he'll eat it. all of a sudden he is becoming picky about what he eats! i will check with the vet about changning insulins.
 
Theadorable_7 said:
We're back! I just checked him and he is at 11.7. I put down some food but he's not interested in eating it. If he doesn't eat, I don't give him the shot (I know that much now)...The last few days he has been getting a mixture of wet and dry food. There is no wet right now so I think he's not going to eat. I'll go get some wet food now. Maybe then he'll eat it. all of a sudden he is becoming picky about what he eats! i will check with the vet about changning insulins.
Click to expand...

Hey there! So glad you are posting over here. So many more eyes. Wow I think you can sure tell that he was on way too high of a dose. I agree that when you are able to switch insulins, he would probably really benefit from that. Right now, I think you are more on track for a successful management of his diabetes. I noticed you mentioned he jumped up! That is great considering his neuropathy (that's what they call the condition with the back legs). Be sure to look around for that methyl b12. It could help him regain more use as you get control of his blood sugar numbers. You are doing a REALLY great job. What a crash course!
 
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