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DebsW

Member Since 2013
Hi, I'm Debbie from the UK and I joined the forum about 3 months ago as our 15 yr old cat Jemima had been diagnosed with diabetes a couple of months previously, however she has NEVER been on insulin and we seemed to be controlling the diabetes with diet - HiLife Essentials then after coming on here Bozita then Mac's - so I've not felt the need to post. Unfortunately her past 2 blood tests done approx 10 days ago and yesterday put her blood glucose levels at 26, the first was done around 10am, yesterday's around 3pm and each approx 3 hrs after food. When she was tested last week the 1st vet suggested putting her on Hill's w/d wet for a week to get her numbers down and although I don't like Hill's I agreed to it for the week (and didn't realise until we got home it has grain in it which the 2nd vet we saw yesterday, who is supposed to be the diabetic cat expert, said was good for diabetic cats). Jemima has been eating the w/d with relish, something she hasn't done with the other foods, and we've been feeding her numerous meals throughout the day whenever she is hungry as she has been steadily losing weight and is now very skinny so I don't understand her going on the Hill's as it is also for weight loss, again I didn't realise until we got home! Anyway, the second test hasn't shown a drop but the vet has said we can try her for a few days on another food and if her numbers don't drop we'll have to start insulin. Now I don't know if this has any bearing on her first test but a week or so before it was done we had to go away and as the neighbour couldn't pop in to feed Jemima during the day we asked her to leave out a small scoop of the Hill's w/d dry that we'd originally been told to feed (but stopped after the initial week!) and feed her the Mac's breakfast and supper, apparently Jemima would only eat the dry so her first test was a few days after having just the dry for 4 days. We stopped feeding dry as soon as we got back so I don't know if it would make any difference.
Obviously we don't want to put Jemima in any danger and are keeping a close eye on her and if needs be then we won't hesitate to put her on insulin but it would be nice to get the diabetes controlled again with diet. I am considering trying raw, she had a tiny bit of mince yesterday to see if she'd eat it and she nearly took my finger off! As this is all so new to us I'm still completely lost with what's what, is 26 way too high to be still messing around with food, should we put her on insulin and then worry about what to feed her? Her previous blood glucose numbers have been 18 when she was diagnosed, then they dropped to 11.2 and then a few weeks before we went away 6.5. We are feeding her a mixture of the w/d wet and Mac's now but she is reluctant to eat much of the Mac's - and I've just bought 12 tins of it!! - and we really do need to put weight on her so I don't want to continue to feed the w/d for that reason and the fact I don't like Hill's for ethical reasons! Also could there be a reason why her levels have gone up on the Mac's even though it's supposed to be a good diabetic cat food? Mima was on the Essentials when her numbers were low but was very fussy about eating it but we'll happily go back to her fussy ways if we can keep off the insulin on it!
I should add our preferred vet, the 1st one, is very happy to go along with what we want to do when it comes to our animals - within reason obviously - the 2nd vet has let us down badly in the past and I only agree to see him as he is, according to the 1st vet, the expert on feline diabetes but he doesn't seem to know an awful lot about the diet side of things and when we first saw him he was all for starting Jemima on insulin there and then before he'd even checked her levels and was then amazed how low her numbers were to what he was expecting, apparently he has heard of diet controlled diabetes but never seen it. Because of what happen with our dog I don't trust the 2nd vet completely but we want to do what is best for Mima and as the 1st vet said he'd take his cat to the 2nd one if it had diabetes and we trust his judgement that's what we're doing - most of the time.
Thank you for listening to my ramblings and I hope it makes sense, any advice or suggestions gratefully received!
Debbie x
 
Hi Debbie (and Jemima!)

Can I just check that I've understood you correctly?
Jemima was dx 3 months ago with a blood glucose level of 18(324). She didn't go onto insulin but you tried diet instead. The blood glucose dropped initially (down to 6.5(117)), but then went up again. And her most recent blood glucose test was 26(468)? Is that right...?

(Incidentally, regarding the Mac's cat food, there are 2 versions of it, one of which is grain-free.)

Were all the blood glucose tests done at the vets? Or do you also test at home?
A blood glucose level of 26(468) is high, and I would guess that it is going to need insulin.
Is there any chance that Jemima has any other health issues going on that might raise her blood glucose levels? Infection? Dental problems?

Will Jemima pee in a litter tray? If 'yes', then I'd strongly suggest that you buy a tub of Ketodiastix test strips from a pharmacy. The strips are to dip into fresh pee and test for glucose and - more importantly given Jemima's high numbers - ketones. (Any level above trace ketones is a reason for a vet visit, pronto.)

Are you willing to learn to test Jemima's blood glucose levels at home? I know it sounds a bit scary, but it really isn't hard to learn and it wouldn't hurt Jemima at all. It could give you a lot of insight into Jemima's diabetes...

Eliz (in gloriously sunny Surrey!)
 
We suggest using an inexpensive human glucometer with pet-specific reference numbers (below).

Comparing a human glucometer to a pet-specific glucometer is like reading temperature in Celsius vs Fahrenheit. Both are correct. You just need to know the reference ranges to interpret what the numbers mean.

[Glucose reference ranges are unsubstantiated and have been removed by Moderator]


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *​
Examples of using the chart:

Ex. You are a new insulin user and you test your cat before giving insulin. The test is 300. It probably is safe to give insulin.

Ex. You are an established user of Lantus, following the Tight Regulation protocol. You've tested around +5 to +7 to spot the nadir. It is 200 mg/dL. You probably need to increase the dose, following the instructions for the protocol.

Ex. Your cat is acting funny. The eyes are a bit dilated. You are concerned and test the glucose. The number is 35 mg/dL. ACK! The cat may be in a hypoglycemic state. You quickly follow the HYPO protocol linked in the glucose reference values chart. (which we really, really, suggest you print out and post on your refrigerator.)
 
Hi Elizabeth - and Bertie! - and thanks for the reply.

Jemima was diagnosed around Oct of last year and yes, I'm pretty sure that was the 18 and we did then go down the diet route that saw her numbers drop until about 10 days ago when it had risen to the mid 20s and yesterday's was up to 26.

I had read yesterday about the 2 different Mac's but ours is the grain free one, though Mima is not so keen but is hungry enough to eat it at the moment!

We have had Jemima's teeth checked recently as we were worried there was a problem as she wasn't eating much but were told they were very good for her age and there were no problems and as far as we know she is healthy in every other respect but it's worth mentioning to the vet when we go on Tues.

All the tests have been done at the vet, in fact I must be missing a reading as she has had 3 blood tests and 2 urine tests. She is an indoor cat - by her choosing as we have a dog/cat flap! - so does all her peeing in a litter tray (she is still peeing a huge amount though doesn't seem to drink excessively) so testing wouldn't be a problem and we were saying yesterday about doing so plus the blood glucose levels. The vet explained about the ketones yesterday and ketoacidosis(?) so we are keeping a very close eye on her for the next few days until the next visit and they have said they will come out straight away if there is a problem as I don't drive and hubby is away a lot. This is one of the things that has me worried and wondering if we should start the insulin rather than wait until Tues to see if her numbers have dropped. We shall buy some strips on Sat, thank you. I'm guessing there is a thread on here about what numbers we should be looking for and how/when to test so I will go have a wander!

I guess as I said I don't 100% trust the vet so don't want to rush to put Jemima on insulin if she is able to cope without but it looks like that might not be the case any more with her numbers being so high, even if she seems ok in herself otherwise - apart from the weight loss.

Ooo hello BJM, you posted while I was writing my reply. Thank you for all that but I may need to read a bit more of the info on the forum before I understand it all. :sad:

Thank you again for the replies, I will go do some more reading now and get even more confused! :oops:
 
DebsW said:
...Thank you again for the replies, I will go do some more reading now and get even more confused! :oops:
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Hi again, Debbie,

Don't worry. It can seem confusing at first. We've all been there. But it will soon get much easier. Honestly! And very soon it will all seem 'second nature'.

If you decide to put Jemima on insulin (and maybe that seems likely given her blood glucose numbers) the one you will initially be prescribed in the UK is 'Caninsulin'. But if that doesn't suit Jemima then there are other insulins you should be able to have access to. Caninsulin is the only specific 'animal insulin' that is suitable for cats in the UK. And vets in the UK have to prescribe an 'animal medicine' before they can prescribe a 'human one'. But if Caninsulin doesn't suit then - under the 'cascade system' - you can ask the vet to prescribe an alternative insulin. The alternative insulins are actually made for humans but also suit cats very well.

I strongly recommend learning to test Jemima's blood glucose at home. It is essentially a very simple process (but it may take a few goes to learn the technique.) A glucose meter that is popular with Brits and is usually easily available in pharmacies is the Accucheck Aviva; and the test strips for the meter can often be bought for around half the RRP on Ebay. (Otherwise, if you wish, I send you one of my spare test kits. It would be a 'One Touch Ultra' meter, and again, the test strips can be bought on Ebay.)

Testing, 'in a nutshell', involves pricking the outer edge of your cat's ear to get a droplet of blood, applying that blood droplet to a test strip in a meter, and waiting for the meter to count down and give you a result.
There are very few nerve endings in the outer edge of the cat's ear, so this should not hurt Jemima. If her ears are nice and warm this will make it much easier to get a blood sample from them initially (later on you'll probably find that the ears bleed quite easily even if they are cool).

Prior to beginning testing it can be worthwhile getting the cat used to having her ears touched; maybe by holding or massaging the ears for a few seconds and then giving a treat or a wee cuddle or grooming session. Then the cat will quickly learn to associate ear-handling with positive things!

I never thought I could test Bertie. He's almost 7kg of pure attitude. But I found that if I crumble a few low carb treats for him then I can test him quite easily while he's munching on those.
You will find lots of advice and 'tips and tricks' on this site about testing. But really it's about finding a way that works for you and Jemima.
I learned to test from this page on the Sugarpet website:
http://www.sugarpet.net/bloodtst.html

Jemima is very lucky to have you caring for her. I feel sure that you are going to do just fine with this!

Eliz
 
No worries.
Once you're testing the blood glucose at home, you just compare to the chart I posted to see what that number suggests - too high, too low, or just fine.
 
Not quite the same but we have had to get used to giving animals regular meds and it does become second nature.

I had read somewhere about the different insulins and the cascade system, probably on this forum.

I shall make a note of the glucose meter and see if we can find one on Sat, the tip about ebay is useful too! Jemima actually seems to like having her ears rubbed if she is in a relaxed mood so hopefully she won't be too difficult, but she can get moody sometimes and doesn't like to be touched, especially if she is hungry! But she does love her cuddles so we should be able to win her round that way. I have also read about using warm rice in a sock placed against the ear first. Jemima used to be a hefty girl but is now down to 3.8kg but still has an attitude when she feels like it. Funnily enough I came across the sugarpets site earlier, but a different page so thank you, I shall have a read tomorrow. I was talking to hubby earlier and we both think Jemima was on the Essentials when she had the low reading and as we have some we are going to feed her that for the next few days and see if her numbers come down but we're not that hopeful so she may well be starting on the insulin on Tues.

Thank you, it is all very daunting but we do what we need to for our pets, I'm just very glad there is an epipen as I have an injection phobia and I'm not sure I could cope with using a syringe!

Thank you BJM, I'm sure it will all make sense once I get started!
 
Hello Debbie,welcome from another UKer.
Regarding food,there are better options than Hi Life,take a look at Natures Menu,also there is a online company called Happy Kitty Company,they are in the UK and have a selection of German cat food that is very suitable for diabetic cats,I buy Granatapet.If you telephone them (they are a small co) tell them you want grain free,they will let you choose a small selection at a special price.
Where are you in the UK?
 
Hi Bailey.
We have been feeding Jemima Mac's from the Happy kitty Company as we wanted something better than the Hilife, that was recommended as a good diabetic food somewhere else but I noticed it wasn't on the UK list on this forum so changed to Mac's on recommendation from another UK member but she isn't that fond of it and is eating less and less though constantly asking for food, saying that yesterday she had some for the first time in a few days and ate well so maybe she just gets bored easily! Before we tried the Mac's we were on the Bozita but again she wasn't too keen and I didn't like it.
This morning I was woken early with a nose bite and head butting by a hungry cat, she then proceed to eat more than she has in one sitting for a long time (approx a whole pouch) I think I've read somewhere excess hunger is not a good sign in a diabetic cat, is that right? She has always been a hungry cat but the past couple of days seems more so than normal.
We are on the north Herefordshire/south Shropshire border, about 30 mins north of Hereford.
 
DebsW said:
... saying that yesterday she had some for the first time in a few days and ate well so maybe she just gets bored easily!
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My cats also get bored easily, and in fact they will no longer eat the same thing twice in a row. :roll:
When they were young it was much easier - they'd eat anything. But they've become fussier as they've got older. So I buy about 5 or 6 different brands of foods in different flavours, pack them randomly into the 'cat cupboard', and then feed them whichever can comes out first (as long as it's not the same as the previous can!). If they go off a particular brand or flavour I just push those cans to the back of the cupboard and, by the time they surface again, the cat may think 'Oooh, this is new... Yum, yum, yum...' ;-) :lol:

DebsW said:
... I think I've read somewhere excess hunger is not a good sign in a diabetic cat, is that right?
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Increased hunger is common in diabetic cats when their blood glucose levels are high. That's because they either don't have enough insulin in their system or they are unable to utilise the insulin that they do have (or both of those). That means the cat's body can't get the nourishment it needs from the food it eats, so it wants to eat more and more.
As the blood glucose levels get better the cat's appetite generally settles back down.

Lack of appetite in a cat with high blood glucose levels is much more of a concern than increased appetite. Cats have a fast metabolism and need to eat regularly to maintain weight and to stay healthy.

Eliz
 
Jemima has become fussier as she has aged too and it's trying to find a flavour she will eat. When we started on the Mac's we tried 3 flavours, one she didn't like, one she was ok-ish with and the other she seemed to really like and that's why we bought 12 cans of it and she has now decided it's just ok and will only eat a bit of it! She won't eat any food left from a previous meal, even if it was only 30 mins before or it's been put back in the can/pouch, it has to be fresh!! I think we shall have to buy a few different brands and see what she likes!

I guess then her increased hunger is because her blood glucose levels are so high and explains her continued weight loss even though she eats so often throughout the day, it's all pointing to her going on to insulin next week. :sad: But at the moment she is fine in herself so I'm not panicking just yet!

Thank you again, all this info is certainly helping me to understand things better and helping put my mind at ease a little :smile:
 
Hi Debbie,it's good you have found the Happy Kitty Company,I find we are very limited in our supermarkets for quality cat food,do try Natures Menu it ticks all the boxes if you cat likes it.Bailey likes Lilys Kitchen,but we have now discovered carrageenan in their foil trays,so that is off the menu!! BJM gave me a good tip of including a small amount of chicken in with their food,so once a week I roast Bailey a chicken and mix some in with his tinned food.
Elizabeth,if you read this did you have any response when you emailed Lilys Kitchen regarding carrageenan?
 
BaileyUK said:
...Elizabeth,if you read this did you have any response when you emailed Lilys Kitchen regarding carrageenan?
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@Diane, yes, I did get a response, and - as I think you may have been told - was informed that it was a tiny amount of carrageenan and that it wasn't the type that was harmful ('poligeenan'? (not sure how to spell that!)).

I think a lot of cat foods around the world DO contain carrageenan though, and that maybe there is actually less of it used in Europe than elsewhere.

Given that there are foods available that don't contain carrageenan here I''ll aim to use those foods. I still use Lily's Kitchen canned foods, but the cats don't like them as much as the trays!
In certain circumstances though, such as if a cat were sick and inappetant, was losing a lot of weight, or was terminally ill, I would feed whatever food they would eat - including any with carrageenan. I had two terminally ill cats in the second half of last year and as their appetites waned all my principles about what to feed them gradually went out of the window. I ended up feeding them a lot of what we call in our house 'ADT' ('Any Damn Thing')... :-|

Diane, since this is something that interests you it might be worth your starting a thread on carrageenan in the Think Tank forum. It could be interesting to hear what other folks' views are on this. (Think Tank doesn't get the 'traffic' that the Health Forum gets so the responses may take time to appear. For that reason it could be worth your 'subscribing' to the thread so that you are notified of any responses.)

Eliz
 
BaileyUK said:
Hi Debbie,it's good you have found the Happy Kitty Company,I find we are very limited in our supermarkets for quality cat food,do try Natures Menu it ticks all the boxes if you cat likes it.Bailey likes Lilys Kitchen,but we have now discovered carrageenan in their foil trays,so that is off the menu!! BJM gave me a good tip of including a small amount of chicken in with their food,so once a week I roast Bailey a chicken and mix some in with his tinned food.
Elizabeth,if you read this did you have any response when you emailed Lilys Kitchen regarding carrageenan?
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We will pick up some Natures Menu tomorrow, are all flavours ok to feed? I actually cooked some chicken for the dogs today and Jemima had some, usually she isn't too fussed about it but this was obviously very tasty, we will have to make sure we save her some whenever we have chicken! We will also try to get some testing strips and a glucometer tomorrow too.
 
Good morning Debbie,
I give Bailey Natures Menu adult pouches,in chicken & turkey,they do beef but the nutritional content for a FD is not as good as the chicken,also you might think of trying a little treat before and after her bg test,I buy freeze dried chicken treats from Pets at Home,the dog ones are cheaper than the ones for cats.
This is all very traumatic when you start on this journey,but you will become accustomed to the routine,good luck.

Diane.
 
Hi sorry to hear you're having a tough time. Just wanted to let you know that the Hill's W/D is for weight loss, not diabetes....the M/D is for diabetes. My cat is on W/D not for weight loss and she is doing very well with it. Not sure why they didn't give you M/D. Did you vet explain why?
 
I'm sorry, that sentence should have read my cat is on HIll's W/D NOW for weight loss and is doing very well with it. But for diabetes my diabetic cats are on the M/D
 
Hi Double Trouble. The vet just said for Jemima to have the w/d as it's for diabetes, which it actually says on the tin (and colitis) but it also says it's for weight loss so I was confused as to why they would put an underweight cat on it! But we have taken her off it completely now and tomorrow we will see what her numbers are now she has been on something else for 5/6 days. We bought some Nature's Menu and will start her on that after the vet visit.

We also bought the glucose meter and some urine test strips though I don't know if they are the right ones as they are called Ketostix not Ketodiastix?
 
We also bought the glucose meter and some urine test strips though I don't know if they are the right ones as they are called Ketostix not Ketodiastix?
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The ketostix check for ketones only.

The ketodiastix check for glucose and ketones in the urine.
 
Hi, I'm fairly new to this. I don't know about the meter you bought maybe someone else can help you with that. I just looked at my cans to double check. It's odd, my W/D can says low-fat, Glucose-mgmnt, gastrointestinal...the carbs are higher than the M/D which is the diabetic food. I have spoken at great lengths with my vets as well as a feline nutritionist....they do say that these are the better foods for most diabetics as they are more appropriately balanced. Out of all the canned foods I have seen, these have the lowest Phosphorus which may be what the problem is with your kitty losing so much weight. Eating low carb foods with high fat and especially high phos ultimately causes gastro problems, renal failure, etc. They explained to me that getting a kitty too quickly into remission by the solely low carb diet without consideration of the other equally important nutrients, was not beneficial to their overall health. Many cats with diabetes are prone to renal failure, pancreatitis, etc. it is of great importance to feed low phos as well as low carb.
I think with the W/D they were trying to, at minimum maintain the weight your kitty is at. Perhaps they suspected a possible gastro problem and wanted to be safe until all tests are returned. That is only my GUESS. I am not educated in feline nutrition, and do not know your cat's health at all. It is best for you to work with your doctor. But make sure you discuss it all with him/her. I do know that Hill's has been working very well with both of my cats and now my non-diabetic is on W/D. I will be bringing her to the vet soon for a quick follow up. We have found another food that is not prescription for her that has the same balance as the W/D so with 2 diabetic cats already, I have considered switching her to it if it is better for her and cheaper for me.
I am sorry I cannot help you better, this is all fairly new to me, but I am just relaying the info I have obtained from them. I do see it working well for my guys.

Please update when you hear how kitty is doing. I am praying for the best for you both.

Kathi
 
Years ago, it was thought that diabetic cats did better on a low fat, high fiber diet. Studies have since shown that to be incorrect and current best practice is to feed canned food with the lowest carb content your cat will eat, per AAHA Diabetes Management Guidelines.

The Hill's W/d dry is 37% carbs, W/d canned is 25% carbs. They are not low carb enough for a diabetic cat, no matter what the pet food manufacturer insists.

My diabetic Wink was on the high carb W/d per recommendation from the vet. He stayed in high numbers, his neuropathy got worse, his fur was dull and pulling out in clumps, he was horribly matted, he had huge quarter to dime sized flakes of dandruff, he got UTI after UTI. He wouldn't play, could barely walk, could not jump at all, was really struggling with life. Who knows how much other damage was done to his internal organs with those persistent high BG levels for so long.

Once I switched him to low carb food, his BG levels improved and he soon went into diabetic remission, where he has been for a over a year now. He shows very few signs of the neuropathy, jumps everywhere, plays and chases the other cats, his fur is sleek and shiny and full, no more dandruff. Acting and feeling so much better, like a cat should.

The pork liver/pork by-product based ingredients of the Hill's M/d and W/d foods is certainly no better quality than the Fancy Feast classic pate foods. Usually, the Fancy Feast foods have meat by-products as the first ingredients but some like the Turkey and Giblets have real meat a the main ingredient. If you want a slightly higher quality food and can afford it, try the Wellness Grain Free canned foods where the top couple ingredients are real meat.

The reason that the Fancy Feast classic pates, Friskies pates and Wellness grain free foods are often recommended here, is because they are widely and readily available, lower priced and have the low carb content we look for to feed our diabetic cats.

Of course, being in the UK, you do not have the same food choices we have here in the US. But Elizabeth and Bertie have given you some good info on food choices.

Certainly, it's your choice to feed your cat whatever food you think is appropriate. But we have found that a very low carb diet, <10% carb content is very beneficial to our diabetic kitties and can often lead to remission.

They explained to me that getting a kitty too quickly into remission by the solely low carb diet without consideration of the other equally important nutrients, was not beneficial to their overall health.
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I do not understand why a vet would not want to get a cat into remission as soon as possible. The longer it takes, the more slow, persistent damage is done to internal organs. We follow the AAHA Diabetes Management Guidelines in the food recommendations we make.

Many cats with diabetes are prone to renal failure, pancreatitis, etc. it is of great importance to feed low phos as well as low carb.
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While concurrent disease can necessitate diet changes, there is no need to feed a low phosphorus food unless your cat has kidney issues. It certainly won't hurt to feed some lower phosphorus foods, like Friskies Special Diet, but low phosphorus foods are not required to treat the diabetes.
 
Deb & Wink

actually the M/D is 14%carb based on a 5.5 oz can.....My cats are doing much better with it than they were without. I prefer to feed my cats a diet that best suits all their needs, not just the low carb. It may take longer, but their numbers have gone down considerably so they aren't being put in any danger. As one of my cats already has gastro issues, it would be harmful to do otherwise. High phos would not only worsen his condition, it leads to other issues. I don't believe in focusing on just the one issue, and causing another simply to rush my cat into remission. Yes, I'd love for it to happen today, but I will not harm my cat to do it.
I'm sorry you had a bad experience with the food. My cats are both doing much better with it, much shinier coats as I've mentioned in another post, no longer lethargic, my Maxx is back to his old self and visibly better, Mufasa I haven't had very long, but I can tell he is doing much better by his numbers, by the texture of his coat, etc. The weight is even coming back. So this is the right path for my cats. I am concerned about their overall health, not just the diabetes. I do not want to cause them other issues.
Many do not agree and that is fine. When we reach the point where we find and can safely switch to another food that Is well balanced we will, but they are not ready yet, and I have yet to see a food that hasn't sacrificed one nutrient for the other.
I wish the best for you and your cats as well.
 
Deb, I'm sorry one last thing...no the low phos won't treat the diabetes, but it certainly will help prevent the associated problems.
 
Deb s

Again just to be clear, I am no expert nor do I pretend to be, I am just relaying to you what I have learned from my vets and nutritionist and what I have seen so far.
Best of luck to you and please keep me posted.
 
Deb & Wink said:
The ketostix check for ketones only.

The ketodiastix check for glucose and ketones in the urine.
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So then as we have the meter to check her blood glucose they are ok to use until we buy the correct ones?
 
As Elizabeth said, the ketostik you have for testing ketones in the urine are fine. Used in conjunction with a blood glucose meter, you'll have good information to help your kitty Jemima.

Here is another article with urine testing tips for you.

How is Jemima doing these days? Eating ok? How are the 5 P's (playing, peeing, pooping, purring, and preening)?

Are you getting used to the BG (blood glucose) testing and using your meter?

When you get a chance, it would be very helpful for us if you could consolidate some information and put it in your User Control Panel, Profile tab, Edit Signature box and submit to save.

Something like this:
Debbie & Jemima (female, 15)
name of insulin used (if any) and brand and name of meter used for testing
diet
any complicating medical conditions

Also, while you are there, adding your country, and location would be helpful. That would be still under the Profile tab, but under Edit Profile, the Location field.

Sure hope you will consider doing these little updates at it would help us to help you better.

I guess then her increased hunger is because her blood glucose levels are so high and explains her continued weight loss even though she eats so often throughout the day, it's all pointing to her going on to insulin next week.
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I think with the continued steady weight loss and the higher BG levels, it's definitely time to start Jemima on insulin.
 
Oh good, glad the stix are ok!

Thank you for the links, the first one I've read but not the second and I need all the help I can get! I feel much happier having help along the way from people who are used to dealing with diabetic cats and not relying completely on a vet, especially one I don't trust 100%, though so far he does seem to know what he's talking about most of the time!

I'll do the info (if I can figure out how!)

Well we spent an hour at the vet yesterday as Jemima's blood glucose was at 22, a drop from the 26 of the previous week but still way too high so she is going on the insulin, Caninsulin, 1 unit twice a day and we go back in a week for a check-up. We are using a vet pen not syringe and both Matt and I and the vet practised with water on poor Jemima but she didn't even notice so I'm happier about injecting her, the major significant thing is that I actually did it as I have a bit of a needle phobia and always turn away if the animals (or anyone else, even on tv!) has to have a jab as it makes me feel queasy, even just the thought of it! As Matt is away a lot I have to be able to inject so was having a bit of a panic attack before about not being able to but I guess knowing Jemima's health is at risk if I don't is a big factor in being able to force myself, and not having my glasses on helped! But, this morning I've not been able to inject, more for the fact that I'm worried I'm going to do something wrong as it's the first time, so Jemima will be starting insulin tomorrow when hubby is home and I've had the chance to re-read all the info on here about when to inject etc. I do feel bad as I was all ready to do it but the vet has said it was ok to wait another day.

We only bought the meter on Sun and haven't used it yet, the vet did say there was no point in doing it for the first week but I thought we would anyway, at least we then have a record of her numbers from the very beginning of starting the insulin.

But Jemima is absolutely fine in herself, she doesn't do play - I think she thinks it's beneath her! - but she is bright and alert, has a good appetite, purrs for England and is continuing to groom herself. She is still peeing a lake but hopefully things will change with that. It's difficult to know with the poops as we have to try and get to the litter tray before the dogs but they do seem a little small at the moment - the poops not the dogs! :lol: We have also started her on the Natures Menu wet food and she loves it so that's good! I did read somewhere that the beef flavour can affect some cats though so I'm not sure if I should give her that one or not.

Thank you again for all the help, as I said I feel happier being able to come here if I need info of any sort. Now I'm off to read all about injecting! :smile:
 
Good job on the signature data! Guess it wasn't too hard to figure out. Thank you for putting those tidbits of information in your signature. Now, they will show up in every post you do and it gives us a quick snapshot of some key information in making suggestions to you.

It can take some time to gain experience and be successful at getting the ear testing down. It also takes time for the cats ears to "learn to bleed". So, even though your vet said that home testing for the first week was not necessary, it's a good idea to start the process as soon as possible.

Here are 2 articles with tips on ear testing.
This first one has lots of tips and tricks, more of the how to's of ear testing.

This second one is more on the Ear testing psychology, or getting your cat to accept the process more easily. It was written by FDMB member Kpassa.

I think the 2 keys to successful ear testing are to warm the ear and to reward your kitty with low carb, pure protein treats. Anything pure meat will work. Lots of us use freeze dried treats. Not sure what is available over there in the UK.
 
Deb & Wink said:
...low carb, pure protein treats. Anything pure meat will work. Lots of us use freeze dried treats. Not sure what is available over there in the UK.
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'Thrive' cat treats made from freeze-dried meat are easily available here in the UK (I think chicken is the favourite flavour). They are very expensive compared to high carb treats though. Some folks buy the Thrive freeze-dried treats made for dogs, I think, and break those into small pieces. They are a lot cheaper than the cat ones. The texture is different though. The cat treats crumble and the dog treats don't (well, the ones I tried didn't crumble, they were much more solid). 'Cosma' also make freeze dried meat treats for cats. They are a smidge cheaper than the Thrive ones and can be bought online from Zooplus.

If you're using treats to distract your cat during testing (like I do with Bertie) then having treats that crumble (and have to be eaten slowly) is a good thing: It buys you time. If you use treats as a reward after testing then it doesn't matter if they crumble or not.
Aside from freeze-dried treats you could also use little chunks of raw or cooked meat. Some folks cook a chicken breast, cut it into cubes and keep that in the fridge to use as treats. Just avoid any pre-cooked meats that have sugar added.
Some cats don't need a food treat at all. A cuddle or a brushing session are sufficient reward.

Eliz
 
No the signature thing was easy once I got there!

I had thought doing the testing straight away would be a good idea, it's just plucking up the nerve to do it, hopefully I'm brave enough tomorrow. Thank you for yet more useful links, I have read them and feel a little happier about doing the testing ..... just a little! So when exactly do I test and how often, also the same question for urine testing.

I had read about the low carb treats and found the Cosma on Zooplus but Jemima has never liked treats so I think we will be going down the chicken route, though I may buy some Cosma to try, she may like bought treats now! She does love a cuddle and brush so that is also something we'll try, unless she goes off in a sulk! ;-)
 
So when exactly do I test and how often, also the same question for urine testing.
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You should test before every shot of insulin. We call this the pre-shot test. The morning test is the AMPS (morning pre-shot) and the evening test is the PMPS (evening pre-shot). These tests are so that you know your kitty Jemima's BG levels are high enough to shoot.

In the beginning, we suggest new people not to shoot insulin if the pre-shot test is <200. As time goes on and you get more experience and gather more data, you will be able to gradually lower that shoot/no shoot level.

Then, you should test somewhere in the middle of the cycle if you are home and around to do that. With Caninsulin, I think that would be somewhere around the +3 to +5 hour time frame (not positive on this). Those tests are so that you learn how far the dose of insulin drops the BG (blood glucose) number for your cat.

+3 means 3 hours after the shot, +5 would be 5 hours after the shot. Since we all live in different time zones, this is the method we use to make it easy for other people to understand the elapsed time since a shot.

ECID- Every Cat is Different. Some cats have those lows, also called nadirs or peaks, at different times. That is why you need to vary the mid-cycle tests a bit, until you get a feeling for when your cats nadir might be. Maybe a +3 one day, a +4 another, a +5 a different day.

We know that many people work, and are not able to get those mid-cycle tests during the day. You do the best you can at testing. More people are around on weekends or on other days off to get those mid-cycle daytime tests.

For urine testing, you are checking for ketones. High BG levels + infection or inflammation + not eating so well can lead to DKA (diabetic ketoacidosis). So when the BG levels are high, it's good to check at least once a day. I think if the BG is over 300 mg/dL (16.6 mmoL), then you want to do a urine test for ketones if you can. Anything more than trace ketones is a call to the vet and probably a visit to see if there is another issue. DKA can be life threatening for your cat, so keeping an eye out on the ketones can be helpful. Some cats are prone to ketones, others never have an issue.
 
Brilliant, thanks for all that. With regards to the mid-cycle test, how long do I need to leave after food before I test. We feed Jemima 5-6 times a day at the moment, not only as she is always hungry but because we want to put a bit of weight back on her, so in time we will probably go down to about 4 times a day which will make it easier.

Matt gave Jemima her insulin this morning but I shall being doing this evening's one! nailbite_smile I decided before her elevensies feed to try to do the BG test. I made a little rice sock and warmed it up, got everything ready, got Mima and after a few 'what are you doing?!' looks she was happy for me to warm her ear. I then managed to prick her ear and got a small drop of blood but it wasn't enough and she kept moving her head around to have a nosey that it ended up on my finger! I tried again but still only got a small drop, even with 'milking' the ear but I put it on the strip anyway but it wasn't enough. Oh well, it's practice at this stage and at least I know I can do it without Mima making a huge fuss (she didn't even notice when I pricked her ear!) and with time I'm sure we will get in to a routine, especially once I get some chicken or treats she likes, for now it's cuddles!

I'm a lot happier now I know I can do it, it's just learning to do it right!! :-D
 
Debbie, you're doing really well. :smile:

I free-feed my cats; Bert is a grazer. So, regarding mid cycle tests I just have to accept that he may have had a snack. The only time I try to ensure he hasn't is prior to his pre-shot tests. That way I know that the blood glucose reading prior to giving insulin hasn't been influenced by the food.

With Caninsulin you'll quite possibly start to see the blood glucose drop after about 1.5 hours after the insulin shot ('onset'). And Jemima may reach her lowest blood glucose reading 4.5 to 5 hours after the shot (insulin cycle 'peak' or blood glucose 'nadir'). After that the blood glucose will rise, and may rise most steeply between 10 - 12 hours post shot. Some people report this. But as we keep saying here, 'every cat is different'.

Oh, regarding giving the shots, I was quite needle phobic, and practiced my technique on oranges! I didn't like handling syringes at all, so I practiced drawing water up into them and then injecting that into unsuspecting citrus fruit. That was quite helpful because they couldn't run off... ;-)
Edited to add: Ah, I think you may be using the vetpen rather than syringes? I'm not sure how the vetpen works, but maybe torturing oranges wouldn't work for you...?

You've made real progress with introducing Jemima to the idea of testing. It sounds as though Jemima was curious rather than alarmed. That's good news.

Incidentally, I found it helpful initially to put a teensy weensy smidge of vaseline on the edge of the ear. That helps the precious blood droplet to 'bead up' rather than disappearing into the fur.

You and Matt are both doing brilliantly!

Eliz
 
Thank you, I really do think I would have been a nervous wreak if I hadn't had all the advice and support from you lovely people on the forum.

We do have a Vetpen so I'll leave the torturing of oranges for now! ;-) It so easy to use, in a nutshell you have the vial of insulin in the pen, click to how many units you want, stab the cat and push the button! I think it helps it's not a syringe as it doesn't look so 'medical', it looks like a pen, especially with the cap on.

We used to free feed but with greedy dogs in the house and Jemima not being able to jump any higher than the youngest hooligan we can't leave food out. There's usually a min of a 3 hr gap between feeds but we're going to try to get Mima in to a routine of just 4 meals a day as she is eating more each meal so they'll be a 5 hour gap.

I do think Mima was just curious, she isn't usually allowed on the counter tops so was intrigued, I'm going to give her a little towel to sit on so hopefully she will start to associate the towel with the test and a treat. We have Vasaline for the dog's nose so I'll remember that tip but I may have to trim just a teeny bit of fur from the inside too.
 
We have Vasaline for the dog's nose so I'll remember that tip but I may have to trim just a teeny bit of fur from the inside too
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I'm all for a bit of fur trimming! Wink has long black hair, black ear edges and long floofy hair sticking out of the inside of his ear. ohmygod_smile When I first started testing Wink, I shaved a tiny patch on his ear with a safety razor, right at that sweet spot and trimmed some of the long hairs inside his ear with some blunt nosed scissors. It was just so much easier at the beginning to have that bare spot and let me see that blood drop if I did not have to find it in all that black hair. Trimming the long hairs inside his ear, kept the blood drop from being caught up on those hairs.

I then managed to prick her ear and got a small drop of blood but it wasn't enough and she kept moving her head around to have a nosey that it ended up on my finger! I tried again but still only got a small drop, even with 'milking' the ear but I put it on the strip anyway but it wasn't enough.
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Sometimes, scraping up the blood drop onto your finger nail and testing from there works.
Or, two quick pokes, right next to each other will let a larger blood drop form.

With regards to the mid-cycle test, how long do I need to leave after food before I test.
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You don't need to wait any time at all after feeding for those mid-cycle tests. It's only those pre-shot tests that we don't expect to see any food given, for about 2 hours before those tests. Any other tests during the cycle, we just figure your cat will have eaten sometime and take that into account.

If you are using our handy dandy color coded google spreadsheet for keeping track of BG readings, insulin doses, you could put the times you feed over in the remarks column. Just a thought.

Have we given you the link to how to setup our standard SS? I don't see that we have, so here are the instructions on getting an SS setup and linked to your signature. The one thing the instructions forget to say, is you need to change the Share settings to "Anyone with the Link". That gives us read only access and we can follow along with Mima's BG readings.
 
Yes thank you Eliz I had seen those but it was useful to look at them again as for some reason I thought I had to do it on the inside of the ear, doing it on the outside I think will be easier!

It's those long inner ear hairs that get in the way but I shall try the Vasaline trick tomorrow. What I've found difficult is lining up the hole where the needle comes out of with where I want to prick the ear as it isn't central on the pen but to one side and just when I have it lined up Mima moves her head! I have managed 2 successful pokes today so I'm pleased with that, though the second one took some time as I made the mistake of getting the food ready first and that's all Mima wanted to get to so I kept losing my grip but with practice I'm sure it will get better.

That makes life easier then if I don't have to worry so much about the mid-cycle tests and food, the animals will have to wait for breakfast until after I've had a cuppa from now on so I'm awake enough to do Mima's pre-shot am test!

I had seen someone else comment on a spreadsheet for recording data and was going to ask so thank you for mind reading! I shall set that up tomorrow but in the meantime I've been writing things down in a notebook which are as follows.

7.30am 1 unit insulin, 1 pouch Natures Menu
12pm 1/2 pouch NM
3pm BG 16.4 +7.5 1/2 pouch NM
6.20pm BG 15.3 +11 1 pouch NM
6.30pm 1 unit insulin
6.40 1/2 pouch NM
10.45pm 1/2 pouch NM

Hope that's right! Tomorrow I'll do her mid-cycle test at a different time.

With regards to the lancet in the testing kit, is it 1 needle 1 poke? It's just with the Vetpen the vet said we can use the needle twice so wondered if it was the same with the BG tester. I've only been using them once as I wasn't sure.
 
This morning's pre-shot BG was at 7.30am and was 17.7. I tried the Vasaline and back of the ear but couldn't see the blood in the fur so went back to the front of ear and after a little hassle from Madam we managed to succeed!
 
What I've found difficult is lining up the hole where the needle comes out of with where I want to prick the ear as it isn't central on the pen but to one side and just when I have it lined up Mima moves her head!
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What you could try is free-handing the lancet. Many of us simply hold the lancet between our fingers and poke at about a 45 degree angle. It can make it a bit easier to see where you are poking then using the lancet device.

With any reuse of a needle, like with the lancet or syringes or those pen tips, there is the risk of contamination and an infection developing. Plus, those lancets and other poky things do get dull after use. I've dipped the lancet tip in isopropyl alcohol for 20-30 seconds to help sterilize them if I'm running low and can't get to the store to buy more soon.
 
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