HELP BS 501

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Hi, I am posting on this board per Sue and Oliver's recommendation. My cat Sumo was diagnosed 9 days ago. I have been home monitoring since Monday. I have note established a spread sheet yet, but plan to do so. But I need someones help now! Sumo has been on Pro Zinc 1 unit bid. I dropped off his numbers a few days ago to his vet for adjustment on his insulin, but I have not heard back. I checked his sugar today at amps which was 198 then checked again at +4.5 hrs 335 then at +6.5 hrs 425 and just now at +8.5 hrs 501 I don't know whats happening. I did increase his insulin yesterday to 1.5 units in both AM and PM. because of his high numbers.. Sue said this may be Somogyi effect ? Please any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thank You, Mary

Readings since Monday

9/19 am 384 pm 299
9/20 am 405 pm 298
9/21 am 376 pm 217
9/22 am 369 pm 383
9/23 am 415 pm 358
amps this morning 198
 
When do you have to shoot, Mary? I am hoping we will get some opinions on what to shoot before then. This board isn't as busy as Health, but they all use your insulin and are usually around am and pm.

Did you see my info about ketone testing?
 
Hi Mary,
WElcome to the PZI board, I know youmust be so overwhelmed right now,
but as Sue always says to us when we start to panic...BREATHE!
it will get easier.
There is not a lot of data since you are just starting out so this is where it can be
so very difficult. In my opinion I think that Sue is correct, maybe the jump from
1 unit to 1.5 was too much too fast
We normally suggest going up in increments of .1 or .2.
It looks like the 1.5 was too much for his 198 amps,
we always say that newbies should not shoot if the number is under 200.
Now what I am going to recommend, and this is y opinion, everyone should be on soon
(i dont know when you shoot)
I would back down to one unit...it is also important to get a mid cycle number..+4 or +6 so you know what is happeneing. now he will probably stay a little high for maybe another day or so, so please expect that.
His liver is not used to seeing low numbers and his body dumped sugar to raise the prbably very low number today.
I would wait a day or so then raise slowly....say .1 or .2 and try to get mid cycle numbers so you know whether nor not he is going to low.

OHH and we also way never shoot the bounce, which means that even though he is really high tonight
dont try to compensate with insulin...leave him at one unit until he stops rebounding

Now read thru this...I will stay on for awhile with you and ask any questions that you might have...
Denise and shakes
 
I did read your link about ketones. I do not have the strips. Honestly, Sumo does not pee or drink alot. He has always been like this for the last 6 yrs I have had him. A few weeks ago is the only time that I saw an increase in his drinking and peeing, and that is when I took him to the vet and we got his diagnosis. Since starting the pro zinc, he is back to his old self not drinking and peeing. Mary
 
Hi and welcome to our group.

I just read your thread on Health and I think Sue is right. You experimental increase tells us that he is responding to the insulin. It looks like he may have gone low last night and his liver panicked and dumped sugar to protect himself from what his body thought was too low blood sugar and now his blood sugar readings are bouncing high. It will be ok.

When this happens you don't want to react to it by giving him more insulin or you will get into a rebound pattern that is hard to get out of. Just let the bounce clear by itself, it will take a few cycles but it will come down.

In the meantime I think you should go back to the 1 unit, those numbers wern't that bad actually, get some mid cycle tests in to see what his cycle looks like and then we can see where to go from there.

You are doing great for having only been dancing for 9 days. Hang in there.

Sue is our resident spreadsheet expert so she can help you get one set up and attached to your signature.

Again, welcome.
 
I don't have a lot of experience, but the high/low cycle looks like bounces to me, too. It helps if you can get some mid-cycle tests (+4 to +6) tests to find out how low he gets.

Ketone strips are available at any pharmacy. If they're not out, just ask. Sometimes you have to be creative to get a sample-Cass pees a lot, just not when I can catch him!
 
Hi Denise, thanks for your pro mpt response. I failed to mention that this morning when I got the 198 reading, I gave him his regular dose of 1 unit. It was just yesterday that I increased to the 1.5 unit both am and pm. Mary
 
Mary, we are thinking rebound. But we could be wrong. If we are, he will continue to throw high numbers overnight and then we will want you to increase in the morning. If we are right, his numbers will come down and even out. There is no way to know except experiment. Which, I know, you don't want to do with your kitty. The alternative is to increase and you run the risk of more higher numbers, if it is rebound.

Regardless, you should test for ketones. High numbers can cause ketones and a dangerous condition called DKA. Mary, can you go out and get some ketodostix after you give the shot? They are with the diabetic supplies in every drug store and are inexpensive. If you think he will be difficult to catch peeing (you have to put the stick in his urine stream), get some aquarium gravel too. You can put the gravel in an empty litter box and see if he will go.

Does anyone think the one unit this am changes their thinking? I was thinking Mary gave 1.5 this am too.
 
Stay with one unit for tonight.
i'll be back in a few....
Carl
 
well...I was thinking ...since we dont have a lot of data and we dont have any mid cycle tests
I am thinkinng the one unit still could have been too much into the 198....
I would stick with the one unit until maybe tomorrow night and then slowly go up to 1.2
but try to get some mid cycle tests in tonight and tomorrow so we know
what is happening
 
Thank you everyone for the quick response!! His next shoot will be at 6:30 pm I will recheck bs at 5:00 pm That will be the next 2 hr interval. I can go get keto sticks. As I previously stated, Sumo has never been a big drinker and he pees very infrequently. Do you recommend that I force feed water into him with a syringe ?? Mary
 
I'm glad to hear that you only shot 1 unit this morning but it doesn't change my thinking. With the 198 AMPS I'm still thinking he went low last night and this is a bounce.

Either way, it is safer to try a lower dose to make sure the dose wasn't too high before trying an increase.
 
I wouldnt force him to drink, he will and he will also pee too...
breathe and try not to worry too much...
Where do you live Mary, I am in NJ and it is 7:15 here
 
Hi Denise, I live in Los Angeles, Calif. I will post again after I get Sumo's 5:00pm reading. Then I will run up to pharmacy for the Keto sticks. Mary
 
Hi Mary,
OK, sit back and take a few deep breaths.
1 - Sumo's numbers so far really haven't been bad. So far you are doing a great job! I can understand you wanting to see if his numbers could go down, and I understand your decision to try 1.5 yesterday.
2 - I don't think the 198 was too drastically low, and I don't think the 501 was drastically high. In case you didn't already know this, the meter has a margin of error of up to 20%. Looking at it optimistically, that 198 could have been as high as a 240, and that 501 could have been as low as a 400. So don't get all freaked out when a number seems to be out of whack. Another thing you can try when you see a number that makes no sense to you is to test again a minute or two later. Sometimes the strip might be wonky, or the blood drop too big or two small. Be concerned if you all of a sudden see a reading of 600 or 60, but otherwise, you're fine. Just collect the data and put it in a spreadsheet so that other people can take a look and tell you what they think.

Chances are, Sumo went low after the 1u into the 198. But I don't think it was "dangerously low". His body has become used to "high" blood glucose levels since he became diabetic. Any time his BG drops a great deal, his body is going to react in a "self-preservation" manner. His liver will think the BG is too low, and it will dump "sugar" into his bloodstream. One of the things that takes place as a cat is getting used to insulin treatments is that it has to readjust to what is "normal" in terms of BG. You are adding insulin into his system that would normally be produced by his pancreas. Insulin is NOT a drug, it is a hormone. What Sumo has is basically a hormone imbalance. Soon, his pancreas will start to "heal", and it will begin producing insulin again. Until that happens, you and your syringe are pretty much doing his pancreas' job.

What you saw today is most likely a "bounce". His liver didn't like the low BG, and it reacted, which pushed his BG back up. That will clear itself in a day or two. Until then, you should stay with 1u and just collect data.

The best thing you can do for the next couple of days is to try to get mid-cycle BG test numbers. Even if you can only get one test in the middle (around 5 or 6 hours after his shot), that will help. You need to determine how low the 1u dose pushes down his BG, so that you will know what to expect if and when you change his dosage.

Another extremely important thing to keep in mind is this : ECID - Every Cat Is Different. Some kitties react to micro dose increases like .1 or .2 units. Other cats don't react as much. I never made an adjustment of less than .25 at a time, in part because I wasn't a member of the board, so I didn't know what was right or wrong, and in part because with the syringes I was using, and my old eyes, I couldn't really adjust in amounts smaller than that. Most times I changed Bob's dose, it was in .5 unit increments, like you did yesterday. Bob was pretty "insulin tolerant" though. He reacted differently than other cats. You still don't know how Sumo is going to react, which is why testing and compiling data is so important.

Keep in mind also - you may not get the same results in the future from something you tried today. His body is going to constantly going through changes on a daily basis. It isn't just the insulin that will affect his BG. His diet, how much and what he eats, his level of activity or stress. All those can influence BG too.

Last thing for now - you shouldn't have to supplement his diet with water. If you see him drinking excessive amounts, that's a cause for concern. But he should get all the water he needs from his wet food. You can also mix water in his food if you think he is looking dehydrated. But cats actually require very little water that isn't provided by their food, assuming they are eating a good low-carb all wet canned food menu.

Carl
 
Thanks Carl, I am feeling MUCH better! You and the rest of the responders have given loads of information to ease my anxiety. Just knowing that things will "even out" in a day or two eases my tension. I just took Sumo's 5:00pm BS and it's 468. Still high as you had mentioned, but I was happy to see it under 500. I did not know that meters had that much inconsistancy. Thats good to know! Slowly I will understand the effects of Insulin on Sumo. I will do a curve as recommended. Should I start tomorrow, or wait for him to stabilize a bit ? I will check his bs at 6:30 prior to his 1 unit Pro Zinc and report my reading. Well, actually I guess I don't have to since there is not much to do except watch and wait (and stick to the 1 unit ) until I hear otherwise. I will post his BS at 6:30 just for everyones information, And then sign on again in the AM. Please let me know when you think I should start that curve, if not tomorrow, it will have to be next SAt or Sun. Thanks again.

Mary
 
Since we are wondering what is going on ( rebound?) some numbers tomorrow would help. Not a complete curve but maybe +6 - and of course the pre shot number.
 
Hi Mary, Glad Sumo is under 500 too!
I dont think you would have to do a full curve but please get a +4, +6 and if you can maybe a +8
so we can try to gauge how low he is going to get a better idea of how and if you should raise.
please also wait to see what everyone else says too!
I am so glad that you are feeling better, I know how stressful it can be
but we are all here to help, and this is a wonderful group of people!

Denise and SHakes
 
Mary,
If you can do a curve tomorrow, that would be fantastic. No matter when or how often you test, every number is helpful. It would be good to see what kind of curve you get now, and if you can do one next weekend as well, super. Some times a "mini-curve" is helpful (once every three hours during one 12 hour cycle).

The most important number other than the two pre-shot tests, is the one at nadir (+6 hours from shot time). That's when his BG should be at the low point. ECID, though, remember that. Some cats nadir at +5, others at +7. You'll have a better idea of how long and how far he drops from the curve.

Keep us posted, someone will be here to see the numbers and help if needed!
Carl
 
Coming down, Yeah !! Sumo"s pre shot bs was 410. I fed him and gave his normal dose of 1 unit. I cleaned his litter box early this morning, and as of now, no pee. I have 2 other kitties that will be using that same box tonight, so I will have to keep an eye out tomorrow for him to pee. I will log in tomorrow to post bs numbers, to see if I need dose adjustment for evening injection. I am currently using the u40 syringes and do not have the u100's but will have some by Monday. Thanks again to all who responded today, I was really sweating when we crossed the 500 bs. I know Sumo is not out of the woods yet, but I am feeling so much better than I did a few hours ago!

Mary
 
Yeah! That's what it's all about - helping each other and the kitties. Someday soon you will be helping a nervous newbie, telling him/her your story.

Hope tomorrow's number looks good.
 
I'm soooo glad you are feeling better about all of this and remember that at one time every single one of us was standing in your shoes feeling exactly like you are feeling right now. It does get better and we are all here to back you up.

When you get your U100 syringes be sure to get the ones that have the 1/2 unit markings for smaller doses.

Hang in there.
 
I am late to the party! It looks like you have gotten great advice.

I just wanted to welcome you to our group!

Kim and Kitty
 
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