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Rebecca SM

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Hello, last week my 4 year old cat was diagnosed with diabetes. I'm so overwhelmed with all of this new information but luckily was introduced to another group member who recommended that I join. My cat has always been small, skinny and had a problem with weak hind legs which vets always attributed to a possible birth defect or being the "runt" of his litter. Anyway, after starting on 1.5 units of vetsulin last week he's shown slight improvement in his lethargy but he still won't eat on his own. I am syringe feeding 25ml of wet cat food about 20-25 minutes before vetsulin twice a day. Today (and 3 days ago) he shows severe signs of weakness in his hind legs and has collapsed twice. A few days ago he was fine after about 10 minutes but today it's been nearly an hour that he can't use his hind legs. I'm calling his vet but wanted to see if anyone here has info they could pass along? Thank you in advance!
 
@Critter Mom @Panic @Deb & Wink @Red & Rover (GA) @Bron and Sheba (GA) @Chris & China (GA)

Rebecca is the sister of one of my past work colleagues and I asked her to post to get more input and insight. We’ve talked about home testing and she ordered the Walmart supplies which should arrive today so she can check Buddy’s bg levels at home. I asked her to go down to 1 unit of Vetsulin until she’s testing because of the lethargy and not knowing his levels and this happening today at +4 which is usually when Vetsulin peaks. I also asked her to get the blood work done at the vet so she can share the test results here. I was wondering about potassium and phosphorus imbalances. She has the links to the pancreatitis primer and Vetsulin intro sticky notes. This is the backstory. Ok sure she’ll appreciate any advice and guidance we can give her.

Thank you!
 
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Hi and welcome
Did you try honey or karo on his gums to see if that improved the collapse. It could be low blood sugars after the insulin dose.
I would also feed him during the first half of the cycle with snacks as well as before the shots. I think he needs more food than just the syringe feeds before the insulin dose. The dose may also be too much.

Are you giving cerenia for nausea?
 
Hi and welcome
Did you try honey or karo on his gums to see if that improved the collapse. It could be low blood sugars after the insulin dose.
I would also feed him during the first half of the cycle with snacks as well as before the shot. I think he needs more food than just the syringe feeds before the Indy dose. The dose may also be too much.

Are you giving cerenia for nausea?


Thank you. I may try that. The vet recommended mixing a tsp of sugar in 5 cc of water and slowly drip it in his mouth. I gave ondansetron for nausea yesterday which got him up and drinking water and licking food but not actually taking bites.
 
Hi Rebecca,

Thank you. I may try that. The vet recommended mixing a tsp of sugar in 5 cc of water and slowly drip it in his mouth. I gave ondansetron for nausea yesterday which got him up and drinking water and licking food but not actually taking bites.
By way of general information, it can take up to 48 hours of treatment with ondansetron for it to build to full effect.

A couple of questions:

1. What weight is your little fella? (Name?)

2. What size dose of ondansetron has your vet prescribed, and how many times a day?

3. Was yesterday's dose of ondansetron the first and only dose he's received?


Mogs
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Another one:

4. Did you manage to speak with the vet this evening, Rebecca? If yes, what advice/guidance did they give you?


Mogs
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Hi Rebecca,


By way of general information, it can take up to 48 hours of treatment with ondansetron for it to build to full effect.

A couple of questions:

1. What weight is your little fella? (Name?)

2. What size dose of ondansetron has your vet prescribed, and how many times a day?

3. Was yesterday's dose of ondansetron the first and only dose he's received?


Mogs
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His name is Buddy and he's about 7lbs. I gave him 2mg of ondansetron last night and yes it was his first dose. With all of the complications today I was a little too worried to give him another dose until I spoke to the vet.
 
Hi Rebecca,


By way of general information, it can take up to 48 hours of treatment with ondansetron for it to build to full effect.

A couple of questions:

1. What weight is your little fella? (Name?)

2. What size dose of ondansetron has your vet prescribed, and how many times a day?

3. Was yesterday's dose of ondansetron the first and only dose he's received?


Mogs
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I suggested the ondansetron 1/2 of a 4mg since she had it handy. Every 8 hours may help and I’m thinking adding an apetite stimulant in a day or so
 
Hi Rebecca,


By way of general information, it can take up to 48 hours of treatment with ondansetron for it to build to full effect.

A couple of questions:

1. What weight is your little fella? (Name?)

2. What size dose of ondansetron has your vet prescribed, and how many times a day?

3. Was yesterday's dose of ondansetron the first and only dose he's received?


Mogs
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Do you think at 7 pounds she can go up to 4mg or stay at half a pill?
 
Do you think at 7 pounds she can go up to 4mg or stay at half a pill?
The 2mg ondansetron dose is too big to give q8h for a 7lb cat (and I'd want to check with a vet before even giving a 2mg dose at all for a cat that weight).

Per Plumb's 2008 edition, for a 7lb | 3.2kg cat:

* General dosing guide (for nausea/vomiting - route unspecified) 0.22mg/kg q8-12h = 0.22 x 3.2 = 0.7mg q8-12h

* Max dose (for severe pancreatitis) 0.1-1.0mg/kg by mouth (PO) q12-24h = 0.32-3.2mg PO q12-24

According to the above, the maximum dose for a cat Buddy's weight would be 3mg q12h but, as I mentioned above, I would not give that without getting a firm agreement from a vet, and a smaller dose would be needed if administering q8h.


Mogs
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The 2mg ondansetron dose is too big to give q8h for a 7lb cat (and I'd want to check with a vet before even giving a 2mg dose at all for a cat that weight).

Per Plumb's 2008 edition, for a 7lb | 3.2kg cat:

* General dosing guide (for nausea/vomiting - route unspecified) 0.22mg/kg q8-12h = 0.22 x 3.2 = 0.7mg q8-12h

* Max dose (for severe pancreatitis) 0.1-1.0mg/kg by mouth (PO) q12-24h = 0.32-3.2mg PO q12-24

According to the above, the maximum dose for a cat Buddy's weight would be 3mg q12h but, as I mentioned above, I would not give that without getting a firm agreement from a vet, and a smaller dose would be needed if administering q8h.


Mogs
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So translating 2mg every 12 hours is okay but not every 8 hours? Or go down to 1mg which would be 1/4 pill?
 
The 2mg ondansetron dose is too big to give q8h for a 7lb cat (and I'd want to check with a vet before even giving a 2mg dose at all for a cat that weight).

Per Plumb's 2008 edition, for a 7lb | 3.2kg cat:

* General dosing guide (for nausea/vomiting - route unspecified) 0.22mg/kg q8-12h = 0.22 x 3.2 = 0.7mg q8-12h

* Max dose (for severe pancreatitis) 0.1-1.0mg/kg by mouth (PO) q12-24h = 0.32-3.2mg PO q12-24

According to the above, the maximum dose for a cat Buddy's weight would be 3mg q12h but, as I mentioned above, I would not give that without getting a firm agreement from a vet, and a smaller dose would be needed if administering q8h.


Mogs
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Also FYI, this is a new vet who seemed competent but didn’t prescribe any anti nausea or pain meds even though Buddy is exhibiting signs consistent with a pancreatitis flare up. I’m hoping Rebecca can get him to prescribe the pain med when he calls back
 
Thank you so much to everyone that responded to my post. This information has been incredibly helpful. While the vet never got back to me, Buddy is doing much better after some honey on his gums and a few more syringes of food. He's walking on his own again and his legs don't show signs of collapsing as they did earlier. I am going to try the vet tomorrow to get pain meds and discuss the insulin dosage and ondansetron. I am very thankful for everyone's help and support!
 
That’s great news Rebecca!

you guys, any thoughts on the dose for tomorrow am? I’m afraid even going down to 1 unit may be too much...?
As there were no ketones at the vet last week, and Buddy has had what looks like a hypo episode and Rebecca is not testing yet, I would skip the dose in the morning and try and get started with home testing to see where he is at with BGs.
The dose definitely needs lowering. 1.5 units for a small cat is too much.
I’d also start testing for ketones.
And I’d make sure to give lots of small feeds with the syringe and try and sort out the ondansetron dose so it can be given regularly and ask for some pain meds.
 
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Hi Rebecca,

NB: Some sections of this post are now redundant and I have greyed out and struck through that text. (Sorry, I passed out in the middle of typing it last night.)

I'm in the UK and about to sign off (past 2:30 am here).

When you get a moment, please can you post an update about:

* whether the honey has had any positive effect on Buddy (in particular, has he got strength back in his hind legs?).

* whether he is managing to eat anything, and if so how much and of which food (dry/wet/low or high carb).

* whether you've heard back from the vet and, if yes, what advice you've received. (If you haven't, I recommend pushing till you get a response.)

* whether you gave any insulin and, if yes, what dose and how many hours have elapsed between dose administration and the time of your post.


For future reference, I'd recommend taking Buddy promptly to an ER vet if you can't get support from your own vet out of hours.

Whatever may be at the root of Buddy's current issues, it sounds like he might be at risk of getting dehydrated, which may also make him feel lousy and even more disinclined to eat (ways to check for dehydration here).

I'd also suggest asking whichever vet you see to check for ketones and also to run blood work to ascertain whether there might be other issues feeding into the hind leg problems and possible general weakness (e.g. potassium / phosphorus / other imbalance, as Ale mentioned above).

I'd also ask the vet to test for pancreatitis, if only to rule it out as a cause of the nausea/inappetence (Snap fPL on-the-spot test gives positive/negative/unclear results, Spec fPL returns a quantitative result indicative of degree of any inflammation present but it needs to be sent to an external lab for processing so has longer turnaround time).

Should Buddy test positive for pancreatitis then cornerstone treatments - pain management, fluids, nausea/hyperacidity control, appetite stimulation - are all covered here:

IDEXX Feline Pancreatiis Guidelines (a good document for discussions with vets).

Things to look out for and tell your vet about:

* Nausea symptom checklist (also look to see whether Buddy might sit hunched up in a 'tense meatloaf' position, possibly with a pinched expression on his face - may indicate pain, possibly somewhere in the digestive system).

* Water consumption/urine output/any inappropriate toileting behaviour.

* Energy / mood (especially if lethargic / depressed / withdrawn)

As Bron recommends above, I think that you need to start home testing blood glucose and monitoring for ketones immediately:

(a) For now, it would probably be safer to work on the principle that Buddy may have had a protracted symptomatic hypo last night until a vet can determine otherwise (especially as the event happened about 4 hours after insulin dose administration, around the time when the blood glucose level is typically at its lowest in cats on Vetsulin, plus Buddy seemed to recover limb function following administration of more concentrated sugars).

(b) Given the possibility that last night's event was a hypo then the 1.0IU dose of Vetsulin should be treated as too high - particularly as Buddy is having difficulty getting food on board. If it was my cat, I would want to determine where Buddy's BG levels are before giving another dose, and I would look to reduce the dose, at least for the time being.

(c) Again, given the possibility of a protracted symptomatic hypo event having occurred last night, Buddy may now be more sensitive to the effects of insulin. This is another reason to be extra-cautious about insulin dose.

(d) With Buddy not eating and some as yet unidentified underlying condition driving the inappetence, skipping insulin doses carries an increased risk of his starting to generate ketones (and his being skinny might increase that risk).

My best suggestion is to get Buddy checked over by a vet as soon as possible today, both to determine BG and ketone status and also to examine him for any possible residual effects of what may have been a protracted hypo. His ketone status is important because that has a direct bearing on insulin dosing.

Important note: If Buddy was in very low BG numbers last night, his body may produce a counter-regulatory response to the low and that can lead to a temporary rebound to significantly elevated BG levels, but there is no way of knowing when levels will drop back. I still think the dose should be reduced - at least for a time while you gather some BG readings and get a better picture of how Buddy's responding to insulin (your vets may give different advice).

The way to keep Buddy safe is to start closely monitoring his BG and ketone levels immediately, and speak to a vet about how much to reduce the dose by (plus addressing the inappetence). Without data, I can't suggest anything about insulin dose, only that the 1.0IU dose appears to be unsafe and if it was my cat I would be looking to agree a reduction with my vet.


Mogs
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PS:

If Buddy needs insulin and is still struggling to eat enough for the next few days, it might be an idea to discuss with your vet temporarily feeding a food with more carbs to enable safe administration of insulin until Buddy is more stable and you have a better picture of where his BG levels are at (over several days). Also, from a ketone perspective, more calorie-dense foods are better when a cat's not eating much in the way of volume.


Mogs
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Thank you again to everyone. Buddy skipped his insulin last night and this morning so that I could start by testing. I gave him 4 syringes (5ml ea) of pate food last night and another one this morning. I tested him at 2:15pm today and his bg is 95. I also recieved all of th results from his bloodwork and urinalysis last week (Feb. 5th)...anything I should be looking out for ? Thanks in advance
 
@Critter Mom @Bron and Sheba (GA) @Deb & Wink

I’m thinking Buddy may not even be diabetic. The food change may have been enough to get his numbers back into normal range. I think Rebecca should test again at pm preshot time but if she’s getting anything under 150, skip insulin?

also I’d love to have someone interpret the test results if she posts. Who can we ask?

Thank you!
 
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I’m thinking Buddy may not even be diabetic. The food change may have been enough to get his numbers back into normal range. I think Rebecca should test again at pm preshot time but if she’s getting anything under 150, skip insulin?
Once a diabetic, always a diabetic.

Could be a combination of the food change, and the hypoglycemic episode that caused Buddy to not need insulin right now. It's a "wait and see" approach.
Ketone testing will be key right now. As well as blood glucose (BG) testing.

also I’d love to have someone interpret the test results if she posts. Who can we ask?
@Marje and Gracie
Rebecca doesn't even have a spreadsheet set up yet. Marje could help with that too.
But the test results should be entered on the "Labs" tab on the SS first. Much easier to see there.
 
It’s hard to say what is happening here. I wonder if this cat has pancreatitis that elevated the BG. He could very well be diet controlled. I would suggest treating with ondansetron or cerenia, getting him to eat lc food if possible, and start testing but not give any insulin.
 
Once a diabetic, always a diabetic.

Could be a combination of the food change, and the hypoglycemic episode that caused Buddy to not need insulin right now. It's a "wait and see" approach.
Ketone testing will be key right now. As well as blood glucose (BG) testing.


@Marje and Gracie
Rebecca doesn't even have a spreadsheet set up yet. Marje could help with that too.
But the test results should be entered on the "Labs" tab on the SS first. Much easier to see there.

a signature and spreadsheet would certainly help along with labs which I can read as well.
 
It’s hard to say what is happening here. I wonder if this cat has pancreatitis that elevated the BG. He could very well be diet controlled. I would suggest treating with ondansetron or cerenia, getting him to eat lc food if possible, and start testing but not give any insulin.
Rebecca gave him ondansetron but there was a question about the dose given he’s only 7 pounds. She called the vet clinic today but they won’t give her any prescriptions or dose advice since she saw a vet who fills in and is not on staff. Yes, BS I know :mad:
 
That’s crazy frustrating. I honestly would try 1 mg and no more. Would the current vets give her Cerenia and suggest dosing? When Tiffany was on chemo she weighed about the same and I was told to give her 1.0 mg.
She was told she needs to bring him back in to be seen by one of the regular vets or wait for the “fill in” vet to be there again. I was thinking the same about the pancreatitis. And 1mg of ondansetron sounds like a safe way to go!
 
@Rebecca SM, @Aleluia Grugru & Minnie -

What tests did the vet run in order to make the diagnosis of diabetes?

- fructosamine?
- urine glucose?
- BG spot check at the clinic?


Mogs
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I asked about the fructosamine and I don’t think they did. I see urine analysis at 1+(250mg/dL) and the spot check was at 307, which of course, could have been a one time thing due to a pancreatitis flare up which all signs are leading to... Rebecca mentioned he was sleeping in the tub and sink which he had never done before and the pancreatitis primer mentions that as a sign to watch for
 
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Keep us posted Rebecca. I think we all agree on the 1mg ondansetron dose suggested by @tiffmaxee ao I’d start that am and pm to see if it helps and then you can try the apetite stimulant in combination. If he’s between 100 - 200 post a new thread asking for advice. If he’s still in the 90’s I’d skip the shot again.
 
It is a human meter ( relion). I haven't given insulin since Saturday morning (a few hours later was the hypo episode) His first bg reading was 95 at 2:15 pm. Now at 9:25pm his reading was 95 again. Any thoughts?
 
It is a human meter ( relion). I haven't given insulin since Saturday morning (a few hours later was the hypo episode) His first bg reading was 95 at 2:15 pm. Now at 9:25pm his reading was 95 again. Any thoughts?
Those are normal numbers Rebecca.
DO NOT GIVE ANY INSULIN.
continue to feed frequent small meals.
Test BG twice a day before food. And try and get a test about three hours after food so we can see what the BG is then.
Post and tell us any BG results
Hopefully once the ondansetron starts to work he will eat better.
 
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