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FatMax'sMom

FatMax'sMom

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Hello,

Thanks for taking the time to read this. My cat Max has been on Prozinc since about May 20th-started with one unit twice a day. He is now up to 4.5 units. Without going into detail, it seems that he takes one step forward and two steps back. His last curve (see spreadsheet) I have finally seen a number below 300..Over Labor Day weekend I had my friend come over for two days to feed and give him his shots. He did pretty well with the exception of one evening he wouldn't eat for her so she couldn't give him the shot (this was the first and only dose he has ever missed).

I have not done another curve since the last as of yet..but I plan to on my next full day off/no plans. I got a new bottle of test strips the other day and I tested his blood with one strip from the old bottle (still had three left in there) and one from the new-there was a 65 mg/dl difference between the two!! His number was 407 +5. I should note that twice this week he got into the other cat's food (not diabetic friendly) because I forgot to put the bowl up :(
I know that kibble is not good, but he loves it and sometimes he doesn't like to eat the canned food. He has lost some weight since diagnosis, but not enough. He is also a grazer who likes to eat every three hours and will wake me up at all costs so I can feed him.

I have not yet given my vet his last curve numbers..I want to wait until I do the next one. She wants me to consider Lantis for him. My biggest fear is what you all fear-his numbers going too low. He is home alone for eight hours four days a week. I don't have $2,000 to pay for ER vet and hospital stay. I have already spent that and more on his tumor surgeries. I of course do not want him to have high numbers either..

My vet has been wonderful through all of this and we checked his kidney values two weeks ago and nothing has changed. She thought maybe that is why he isn't responding as well to the insulin..but everything so far is good.

Any insight would be most helpful.

Thank you!
Heather
 
Glad you made your way over here!

Is it right that you are only testing monthly? We would strongly suggest you test before each shot to be sure the dose you are planning to give is safe. And a nadir (5-7 hours after the shot) is important, whenever possible, to see how the insulin is working. Getting data every day will help you keep track of exactly how the insulin is working and be able to adjust the dose to give him the best chance for regulation and possibly remission. Looking at some of the other member's spreadsheets on this forum will let you see how they are using the insulin and their results.

Could you get everyone to eat low carb food? It would be best for them all, and possibly prevent a future diabetic. This vet has some wonderful ideas for transitioning from dry to wet. (www.catinfo.org) Sneaking some dry high carb can raise numbers by 100+ points. And the Pro Plan diabetic food could be very high carb. (Check out your flavor on this food chart: http://catinfo.org/docs/FoodChartPublic9-22-12.pdf. ) We try to feed between 8-10% and under.

Using an automatic feeder might keep him from wanting to eat so often. Another trick is to add some warm water and make the pate into a kind of gravy.
 
Hello Heather.

I use Lantus so I can't help with Prozinc. Others will be along shortly. I see your ss and info in signature, that's good. I notice you are changing dose once a month and by whole units. It is a good insulin if done properly. You might need some tweaking though.

There is a Prozinc condo here. They have information you might want to read.
 
Hello Heather! I see you've already gotten some good info and questions. Looking at your SS, it does look like the insulin worked last time you did a curve...it brought Max down (though not too low).

I have to echo Sue that it's super important to test daily. Before each shot and nadir WHEN POSSIBLE (we totally get that work schedules generally make that impossible during the week). I used to grab a before bed test on work days...about 2 to 3 hours after evening shot as I headed up to bed. That way, I had some data on days I couldn't get a nadir. This is how we keep him safe as well as figure out how the dose is working for him. :)
 
I have tested more than monthly..it's just the curves I have only done when the vet wants to see where he is at and to change dosage. If I think he is acting more himself I will check him, and when I think he might be really high I will check him.
Tonight I checked him just after eating to see what his number was because of the high reading the other day..and he was 575 :(

There is no way I can check his blood after his morning shot as I am at work..and only if I stayed up late would I be able to check him at night. When I do the curves is when I am home all day..and I am able to check his blood at nadir at least two days a week..so I will start to do that from now on.

Our other cat is about 17 years old (but still acts like a kitten most days) and doesn't care much for the DM food..but I do mix it in with her food. She is actually eating Max's old food (Royal Canin Satiety-for weight loss) that was at one time recommended by a previous vet to help Max lose weight. I have 40lbs left of it, so I was just trying to get rid of it I guess. I could try to donate it somewhere..

According to the DM dry food bag, the Carb content at it's highest is stated as 18% and it says it's low carb..and that contradicts what the chart on here states, so what gives? The canned DM food is 3% carbs according to the list here.

Can anyone explain why the glucose readings are so different?

Thank you for your help Sue and Oliver :)

Heather
 
Gotcha! That makes sense. Yeah, I never tested nadir throughout the week. I'd grab it on the weekends (and occasionally at night...because I wake up usually once a night and sometimes, I would run down and get a test...but not every night or anything). Just grab some tests when you can. :)

I think the dry food would be higher carb than the wet. I'm guessing it says it is low carb because I don't think there is really much info out there about what a good amount of carbs for cats really is. We go with under 10% here, but I don't think that vets or cat food companies really follow any specific numbers. Most likely, they figured it was a lower carb food than their other foods and so they labeled it low carb.
 
I will definitely start to check him more to get a better sense of what is going on. Ever since he got sick he has been laying on the bathroom floor (I think because it's cool tile) most of the time during the day..whereas ever since I got him he has slept with me in bed (almost 9 years now). For the past month he will come and snuggle with me in the morning before my alarm goes off..He is getting to be more like himself slowly but surely...but I can tell he still doesn't feel well.

If I give Max canned food at one meal, he won't go back later and finish it..he is somewhat finicky! I am willing to switch to all canned, but I just spent $50 on another bag of food!! Either way I would need to make a slow transition because when he got diagnosed the vet had me switch his food cold and he got diarrhea for a few days :( I even asked her if that was the right approach and she didn't think there would be an issue...I love my vet but that is common sense to me!

I have read all of the advice on the Prozinc "sticky". I have read about the "missed dose", but how can you get back to that, if indeed you have missed it?

Thank you all for your help!

I might bump this tomorrow to get some more advice!
 
The DM dry is lower carb as far as dry food goes but it's still to high for diabetics. There is Young Again (YA) that is low carb about 4%. Can only be ordered from the company. And EVO kitten and cat is lower than the DM. You might look into those.
 
You can take the dry DM back for a refund. Just tell them he won't eat it (they hear that all the time). The food chart we use was developed by a vet after calling each company, getting their values and calculating the carb count on her own. So we trust it over the manufacturer, who can label any food low or lower carb. It is, compared to a 40% carb food....The DM wet is okay - just too expensive. And it's mainly liver, so they often get tired of the taste. If you are planning to test regularly, I'd pick a few wet foods off the chart under 8% carbs and see if he likes any of them..the same vet at catinfo.org has great ideas for reluctant eaters. If you change to full low carb, you need to be testing. Our Oliver dropped 100 points overnight when we pulled up the dry. Your Royal Canin may also be refundable. You might call them and ask - I don't know if they have the same policy as Purina - and again, say your cat won't eat it....

Can we help you figure out a schedule that will allow you to test and shoot before and after work? You need maybe 30 minutes before you leave in the am and then 12 hours after that. It really is important to know what the value is, so you can be sure you are not giving too much insulin. And it is really the only way to get him into good numbers, toward regulation. You need a clear picture of how the insulin is affecting him so you can increase and decrease in the way that will best help him.

To keep him away from your civie's food, you could feed them at the same time and then put the dry away. Leave the wet out and see if they will snack on it. Young Again is a lower carb dry - available only on the Internet - but they will send you a sample so you can see if your civie likes it.

I know we seem a little fanatical about testing before the shot, but we have seen so many kitties do well with that system, and tried to help so many who come here the first time after not testing, with a hypo. We know it's hard, but we know it works, and we'd love to help you figure out a way.
 
Not sure what info you need for a missed dose, but if you have to skip (because of a low pre shot number or a fur shot or just life) your next pre shot test is likely to be higher than usual (because it has been 24 hours since the last shot). So you adjust a little. You don't shoot a high dose because it is a higher number than usual, you take into account that it reflects the skipped shot and you give less than you might normally for the higher levels. Does that make sense?
 
Sue and Oliver,
I ordered the Purina through Petflow.com and their website says that it can't accept refunds on Rx food, so I am stuck with the bag I haven't even gotten yet.

I think I may have mispoke, or been misunderstood about my testing and shot schedule. I am able to check his BG in the morning before his shot around 7:30-8am, but I am not able to check his BG around nadir time. I get home from work at 7:25 so I am able to chec him again (12 hours later) and give the second shot of the day. If I happen to be up at around midnight I am able to check his BG which isn't quite nadir, but it's something. So yes, he does get his two shots a day, 12 hours apart..

As far as having wet food out..I am not sure how that would work. First of all he is fussy and sometimes won't eat leftovers (that's not to say once he would be off of the dry he wouldn't eat them). Second, our other cat had lived on dry food most of her life until I came along..and now that is all she wants. She will eat dry if that is all that is there, but I'm afraid if the wet is always out she will eat it ALL :(

Regarding the one missed shot, I did not adjust any dose because of it..I was just stating that I wanted to wait a bit before I did another full curve because of the missed shot. I have never adjusted a dose without my vet telling me I could. I don't understand what you mean when you said that I should have given him less insulin for his next shot (after the missed one).

I don't mind you being fanatical at all..I think it's necessary due to the vets not being able to be in our homes every day. We have to be the ones to watch them and take care of them...as we know them best. Having you and others on here gives great peace of mind and I truly appreciate anything you tell me! Thank you!

I checked him preshot tonight and he was at 629. There was a Packer game on today-with a loud TV and loud shouting at times..so it might have been higher because of that. My boyfriend has two kids that my cat isn't fond of (partially due to him being used to just me for 5 years, one of them was teasing him when we didn't know it, and he is just a scare-dy-cat in general and doesn't like loud noises that would startle him). I gave him a gabepentin to calm his nerves which seems to work well. I will check him again before I go to bed...
 
You might call Purina and see if they will take it back? I know you can take it back to the vet or store if bought there.

I am guessing the food is a big part of his higher levels. If there is a way to get both cats on wet low carb, it could make a big difference. One idea might be an automatic feeder. I love my PetSafe5. You could set it to go off several times a day and maybe they'd both graze on it.

I think I would raise the dose to 5 units, on a cycle you can catch a nadir. I would wait till you can monitor. He probably won't drop low but I wouldn't take the chance. I know it's hard to get a nadir at night (set an alarm for +6) but it can be an option. If you are near my age, you are probably getting up anyway...

Are you getting ketone tests? It is a good idea when they are running high.
 
My vet told me that it takes up to two weeks to really see how each dose increase is working for cats..? I would much rather start by cutting down, then out of the dry food before changing his dose..at least try that and see what happens. Not that long ago his numbers seemed to be getting better.

The only reason I get up in the middle of sleep is when he is waking me because he is hungry..which is about 3:30-4am. I am barely awake, but I can try to check him...but I would have to do it while he is eating or just after because when he is hungry he probably won't let me get a reading.

I have not yet done any keytone testing..his blood was checked at the vet about three weeks ago, but I guess things can change.
 
We think every cat is different. Some adapt to changes every cycle, some take three cycles to settle in, some longer. Testing over time should help you figure out which he is. But two weeks is a long time to continue with a dose that is not doing much, IMHO.

An automatic feeder could solve your nighttime feeding issue. Set it to go off whenever he is usually hungry and have it move to an empty slot 2 hours before his morning preshot test.

Yes, checking ketones is wise. It's the same ketone strips humans use. You stick it in his stream while he is peeing, or use a ladle. If he won't allow that, we have other ways...
 
Thank you..Purina is sending me a refund for the dry food. I think I will invest in the feeder, sounds like it will be nice to get a full nights sleep

I will also get some keytone test strips..

I have started to give less dry food..

Thank you for all of your suggestions
 
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