Hello from catz54 & VanAxle

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catz54

Member Since 2013
My boy was diagnosed a week or so ago with diabetes. The Vet filled me in on what is needed. But, the more I read, the more I realize he's left out things.
I am having issues with feeding. VanAxle is used to a mixed diet...canned food for breakfast & dinner, but dry food to graze on during the interium.
I've eliminated dry food.
VanAxle is not an obese cat. He's lost 5 lbs. I am trying to figure out how to put weight on him safely.

I feel like I'm doing things wrong, and need to correct this.

Any suggestions?
 
Hello and welcome to the FDMB. The best place you never expected to be.

Would you please tell us which foods you are feeding? Brand, style, flavors.

What does your vet says is VanAxle's ideal weight? How much weight does he need to gain back? What does he weigh now?
 
Welcome to the board!

How was van axel diagnosed? Was his blood sent to the lab? Or was it an on the spot test? Did the vet check his urine for sugar?

Also has he started insulin yet? If so, which and how much?

More info we have, more we can help

Wendy
 
Van weighed 16lbs, but was losing weight rather quickly. Plus, the excess water, and urine gave me a clue.
He now weighs about 11lbs. And is a rather big built cat. His tail alone is 13" long. He grew into that tail and the large paws.
The Vet hasn't given me an idea of 'Ideal' weight. Although, last year I was told he was a bit overweight at 16lbs.

Blood work was sent to a lab, and I collected a urine sample to take in and that, too, was sent out to a lab.

His diet before was Friskies canned food, 2 Tbs. for breakfast and dinner. Dry food, Kibbles & Bits, was out always for grazing times.
He now has a small amount of dry to satisfy him between meals. He now gets Friskies Pate canned, only. About 1/4 serving at a time. 3 times a day.
I feel that I am not getting enough info from my Vet. Sometimes, when someone knows something, they assume you do as well. I don't.
I have tried to ask questions, but, new ones come up.

He is on Insulin, Novolin, 2 units twice a day. And I use Diastix to check sugar in urine.

I hope this helps.
 
Would you please look at the bottle of insulin and confirm for me, which version of Novolin you are using. Is it the Novolin N? or the Novolin R?

Novolin R should only be used in special circumstances, like to bring down a high BG really fast. Not appropriate for everyday use as the only insulin. Sometimes miniscule doses are used in a bolus manner to supplement another basel insulin for tough to manage kitties.

Novolin N (aka humulin N) is one of the NPH insulins. Here is a primer on the NPH insulins written by Sweetgrass & the Furries back in 2009 Humulin N Primer It will teach you a few of the basics about the insulin you are using. Some of the information in the document is out of date. The L and U types have been discontinued.

The main issue with the Novolin N insulin, is the duration. Few cats get 12 hours out of a shot. 6-8 is more typical. ECID.

When you feed with Novolin N is critical. You should feed 30-45 minutes before the shot, to make sure the fast onset of the insulin does not drop your cat too low, too fast. Food on board helps to mitigate this fast onset.

You also do not want to be feeding much past the midpoint of the cycle, hour 4-5. Since the insulin is used up, adding more food at this point simply causes the BG (blood glucose) levels to shoot up faster.

What readings are you getting with the urine dipsticks?

Was there a reason the Novolin N was prescribed instead of the newer longer duration insulins like Lantus, Levimir, PZI or Prozinc?
 
It is Relion Novolin N.

The Vet prescribed this med. And also, said to give him the shot while he was eating.
The more I researched, the more info I found. Not all of it was the same.

With regard to the dipstix, I timed them too long. So, I didn't get that right either. I feel like I should be filing an 'IDIOT' form.
I didn't get this perplexed when I was daignosed with cancer! :?
 
I'm reposting the replys that were lost during the server changeover. Here they are:

Catz54 said
It is Relion Novolin N.

Ok, this is why I am so befuddled. I began researching online, and found way too much info.
The Vet prescribed the Insulin. He's the one who told me to give the shot while Van is eating.
Another site I had gone to, suggested feeding in quarters. That way he'd eat about 3 times a day. As it is, he's been all but eating the other cat!

And this
I forgot.... the readings I got on the two stix I've done so far, I can't trust. Apparently, I waited too long to read them. I forgot...30 seconds.

Also, to be quite honest, I was not able to afford Insulin for $98.00. Even if it were for me, I couldn't do it.

That's all I backed up for this thread before the server changeover.
 
Novolin is not a good insulin for cats, regardless of how cheap it might be. You get what you pay for...meaning only partial coverage (unless you're shooting three times a day), higher risk of hypo, and less chance of remission (meaning no need for insulin). I really wish vets would stop offering this as a "cheaper" alternative because it's anything but! Even the AAHA (American Animal Hospital Association) Guidelines for Diabetes say to not use this insulin on cats. ohmygod_smile

There are ways of saving money on better insulins than the Novolin. Both Lantus and Levemir have Savings Cards that you can sign up for that bring the cost of insulin down into a less-expensive range. You can get a Lantus Solostar pen for $25 a piece and each pen should last you two to three months or more (depending on dosage). They also have a discount card for the Levemir FlexPens (not sure what that equals out to per pen, but it's reasonable and affordable). You use the pens the same as you would use a vial by inserting a syringe into the tip (you don't use the cartridges or the "dial-a-dose").

We also have a Supply Closet here where people offer up their old supplies, including insulin.

Getting rid of the dry food is a great step towards getting his diabetes regulated and possibly even getting VanAxle into remission. Here is a list of the nutritional information for most of the available commercial cat foods. It is recommended to feed diabetics less than 8-10% carbs (the lower the better). The Friskies Pates are fine to feed (and inexpensive, too!). As for how much he should eat and to help him gain weight, newly diagnosed diabetic cats are essentially starving because their body isn't able to process nutrients from food properly. Have a read-through on this discussion about feeding newly diagnosed kitties as much as they want and it might give you some more ideas to help him gain the weight back (getting him regulated, of course, being the best idea ;-) ).

As for the diastix, you might surprisingly have an easier time with home-testing than with getting a properly timed pee sample. :lol: We've taught plenty of people how to home test and it is the most accurate way of knowing how your cat is doing right then instead of how he was doing hours before (from a urine sample). You can also get a free home-testing kit here.

catz54 said:
I feel like I should be filing an 'IDIOT' form.
I didn't get this perplexed when I was daignosed with cancer! :?

Well, you found us, so I hardly think you're an idiot. ;-) As I like to say, "I don't need to know everything; I just need to know someone who knows what I don't know." Collectively, we all know what you don't (yet) know so we can help fill you in where needed. Remember, the only bad question is the question that goes unasked.

And welcome! :YMHUG:
 
Yes, I did find this site....after HOURS of research on the internet. My eyeballs are blurry.

While folks here do not have good things to say about Novolin, I can't help but notice a big difference in Van's behavior. He no longer hovers over the food and water dishes, or spend much time in the cat box. Before, he did nothing but. He even leaves the kitchen more often.
Not arguing, just observing. It's still early in the game yet.

BTW, he gets 2 units, twice a day.

Meanwhile, I have saved the info for the other brands you suggested, and fully intend to research them.

So far, I haven't tested his blood sugar...yet. I do have a Bayar Contour monitor to do so with, but the Vet said to wait until his next appt. (tomorrow) before attempting to do it at home.
My problem is monitoring him and waiting for him to pee. If I wasn't going thru this, I wouldn't believe it.
However, outside of the instructions enclosed, I really don't know what I'm doing with them.
The Vet never explained that part. I believe that he thinks because he knows, so do I. I don't.
And, yes, I intend to read the part about 'home testing' you suggested.

I really appreciate the help I've received here. Dealing with my own health issues, and now his, it is rather overwhelming at times. nailbite_smile
It's good to know there are those out there who can relate. :smile:
 
catz54 said:
While folks here do not have good things to say about Novolin, I can't help but notice a big difference in Van's behavior. He no longer hovers over the food and water dishes, or spend much time in the cat box. Before, he did nothing but. He even leaves the kitchen more often.
Not arguing, just observing. It's still early in the game yet.

At the very least, some insulin is better than none. Novolin is just incredibly difficult and time-consuming to properly manage for cats and the statistical odds of your cat going into remission is virtually nill. With the other three insulins I listed above, they have around an 80% or higher remission rate for newly diagnosed cats (within 6 months). Remission is basically when a cat is able to start producing enough insulin on his own again and no longer needs supplemental insulin injections and that is the goal for newly diagnosed cats. There are the rare cats that won't ever see remission (most likely my Michelangelo) or the cats that take longer to achieve remission, but it is something to strive for because no one wants to have to give two shots a day to their cat for the rest of their lives. ;-)

As to the dosing with Novolin, I'm not sure what a good recommended starting dose is. Most all newly diagnosed cats, we suggest starting out at 1u (or even .5u) and increase from there, so 2u seems a little high. Knowing how harsh and how fast Novolin works, I would perhaps suggest dropping that to 1u, twice a day to start with...at least until you can start home-testing so you know how he reacts to that dose.

catz54 said:
So far, I haven't tested his blood sugar...yet. I do have a Bayar Contour monitor to do so with, but the Vet said to wait until his next appt. (tomorrow) before attempting to do it at home.
My problem is monitoring him and waiting for him to pee. If I wasn't going thru this, I wouldn't believe it.
However, outside of the instructions enclosed, I really don't know what I'm doing with them.
The Vet never explained that part. I believe that he thinks because he knows, so do I. I don't.
And, yes, I intend to read the part about 'home testing' you suggested.

I really appreciate the help I've received here. Dealing with my own health issues, and now his, it is rather overwhelming at times. nailbite_smile
It's good to know there are those out there who can relate. :smile:

That's great the vet is willing to show you how to home-test! :thumbup I've seen quite a few people join whose vets actually discouraged home-testing, a couple even refused to continue working with the person when they found out about the home-testing. Don't worry if you can't seem to get the testing down. It usually takes a couple of weeks for everyone to get acclimated to the new routine before it starts getting easier. Now, I'll wake up the next day and see that I've managed to grab a test or two overnight in my sleep! I-) (Not really, but fairly close to the truth :lol: ).

For monitoring his pee, I've never done that with Michelangelo. I use the straight Ketostix (measures solely for ketones; not BGs), so I can't really help you out there. :? Even then, blood testing Mikey is still easier for me to do than grab a ketone test. Having to time it with a litter box visit is the hardest part for me. :razz:

And just so you know, you've not just found a place to help you figure out this Sugar Dance, as we like to call it. You've also found a community that is here to support you with everything, including emotional support. :YMHUG:
 
Welcome!

As folks have mentioned, N type insulins last roughly 6-8 hours, leaving 4-6 hours without insulin out of every 12 hours. Ways to manage this include picking up the food at +6 hours from the shot, OR taking the toyal daily dose, divide into 3 equal doses, and shout every 8 hours (aka TID).

Be very cautious if the vet suggests increasing the dose based on an office glucose test. Many cats are stressed in the office and the glucose may jump up 100-180 mg/dL from stress alone. It is better to test at home and to focus on the nadir, the lowest glucose level between shots. That should go no lower than 50 mg/dL, for safety. Glucose levels below 40 may trigger signs of hypoglycemia and we leave a bit of room, as meters are not 100% perfect measuring tools.
 
Hello there

Dont worry - it can be overwhelming at first but it gets very routine after a while. So.. how did the vet visit go?

Also can I ask what country you are in? it will help us better advise on stuff. I am suspecting the US given the brand of Novolin so I am hoping your vet discussed other insulins like lantus. Its got a higher chance of remission and not so harsh on the cats body so it would be worth discussing with your vet if you havent already.

Wendy
 
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