Has Anyone Switched From VETSULIN to NOVOLIN 70/30???

ELLIOTT & Fran Munschauer

ELLIOTT & Fran Munschauer

Active Member
After 1 year of research with Merck and their subsidiary "Vetsulin", I have had it. I do not trust that any of their professionals know or care whether the crystalline and amorphous portions are stable..whether shaking or rolling helps to maintain the suspension properly. Maybe that was part of the issue years ago. SOMETHING IS NOT RIGHT ABOUT THIS INSULIN. As a matter of fact most of their personnel do not even know what the above "portions" described terms mean. Suzie has been on Vetsulin for 1 year after stopping Lantus. Lantus(at least) was predictable. The problem was I never could get any sleep worrying how low her BG would get by 4 am...but I did not question its stability and BG results were "consistent". I still wonder if animal products approved by FDA are less strict than that for humans. DVM's don't seem to know much more than I do and also don't seem to question the stability of Vetsulin. AND SO, I am just wondering if anyone has switched to Novolin 70/30 (not NPH). Any info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!!!h
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...AN6D_M3AYT6_kgqbHE7JWo6kSM/edit#gid=811447094
 
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I can't help with this issue unfortunately but have you given any thought to trying Lantus again? You should be able to find a way to dose it so that you aren't worried about her diving too low in the middle of the night.
 
I don't think you really want to go with 70/30. That's a combination of fast acting and regular NPH - normally used in a hospital setting to knock down high numbers quickly during illness. You'll have even steeper dives and zooms back up than you see with Vetsulin. You'll need to test often, most kitties feel like poop with that steep of a dive and rise.

Have you considered Levemir instead? It's a much flatter cycle than Lantus and may give you the peace of mind you're needing. It's a depot insulin but works differently than Lantus.
 
Hi Fran. In case my memory is off here, Suzie Q is your dog, right?
If so, I don't think Levemir would be a consideration here. Apparently Levemir was tested on a small sample and showed a tendency for hypoglycemia particularly in small dogs.
http://veterinarymedicine.dvm360.com/using-insulin-detemir-treat-diabetes-dogs
I agree that Novolin wouldn't likely alleviate the problem you're having and might even make it more pronounced. I have no experience with dogs and diabetes so not sure what to suggest. Why did you stop the Lantus?
 
Kris & Teasel said:
I can't help with this issue unfortunately but have you given any thought to trying Lantus again? You should be able to find a way to dose it so that you aren't worried about her diving too low in the middle of the night.
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I liked Lantus alot..but I couldn't figure out how to shorten the action unless I stayed up the only 2 hours (4-6 am) I often got to sleep..by feeding her??? This is Suzie (dog) not Elliott..sorry, I thought everyone knew that I still come here because "Cat" people care much more to help others than we dog people...
 
Squeaky and KT (GA) said:
I don't think you really want to go with 70/30. That's a combination of fast acting and regular NPH - normally used in a hospital setting to knock down high numbers quickly during illness. You'll have even steeper dives and zooms back up than you see with Vetsulin. You'll need to test often, most kitties feel like poop with that steep of a dive and rise.

Have you considered Levemir instead? It's a much flatter cycle than Lantus and may give you the peace of mind you're needing. It's a depot insulin but works differently than Lantus.
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Yes I bought Levemir but no DVM would back me because Suzie is only 10 lbs..Thanks
 
MrWorfMen's Mom said:
Hi Fran. In case my memory is off here, Suzie Q is your dog, right?
If so, I don't think Levemir would be a consideration here. Apparently Levemir was tested on a small sample and showed a tendency for hypoglycemia particularly in small dogs.
http://veterinarymedicine.dvm360.com/using-insulin-detemir-treat-diabetes-dogs
I agree that Novolin wouldn't likely alleviate the problem you're having and might even make it more pronounced. I have no experience with dogs and diabetes so not sure what to suggest. Why did you stop the Lantus?
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Yes you are right Mr Worfmen's Mom..It's Suzie and you (as always) are accurate.. And though it's always brought up that this is not a dog site, I appreciate the help I have always received here even for Suzie..Remember how you helped me with Elliott, who has now been in remission for over 2 years..Thanks sooooo much!! BTW.. In the ER, we don't deal with everyday insulins (just regular)..so I just "assumed" that Novolin "70/30"...had similar structure (for humans) as vetsulin 65/35..Stupid me!!! I'll look back to see the charting on lantus because I thought it was doing well...The University dean warned me that they would only use Vetsulin..I am going to review my ss on Suzie when she was on Lantus for? about 3 months I think back in winter 2017...Even people who read about Vetsulin should note..1 minute it's ordered for every 24 hours..but if that doesn't work..give every 12 hours??? soooo, maybe sometimes the suspension overlaps if giving every 12 or doesn't last at all..I don't think Merck knows either..Sorry for my skepticism..but I KNOW SOMETHING IS NOT RIGHT ABOUT VETSULIN..just not sure what...Miss all of you!! today..Shocker today 6a-FBG 214 10a 268???
Suzie....https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...AN6D_M3AYT6_kgqbHE7JWo6kSM/edit#gid=811447094
 
Thrilled to hear Elliott is still in remission. Gratifying to know he is doing well. I finally got my kitty into remission last Sept. so I finally know how great that feels. :D
Actually Novolin and Vetsulin are somewhat similar in that both are intermediate action, cause steep drops and don't last a full cycle in many kitties although the Novolin N does seem to last a bit longer than Vetsulin in some. I've no idea what canine metabolism is like but from the sounds of the research on Levemir, it's far slower than a feline's and more similar to a human. Have you spoken with a DVM about using Novolin N?
 
MrWorfMen's Mom said:
Thrilled to hear Elliott is still in remission. Gratifying to know he is doing well. I finally got my kitty into remission last Sept. so I finally know how great that feels. :D
Actually Novolin and Vetsulin are somewhat similar in that both are intermediate action, cause steep drops and don't last a full cycle in many kitties although the Novolin N does seem to last a bit longer than Vetsulin in some. I've no idea what canine metabolism is like but from the sounds of the research on Levemir, it's far slower than a feline's and more similar to a human. Have you spoken with a DVM about using Novolin N?
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Novolin N=NPH? YES..She was on NPH when first diagnosed 7/2017..and it did not last and did not work soon enough after eating..So, I switched to Lantus. Many dog people are quite happy with NPH. However, the diabetic dog forum does not ?keep/share ss's and I often read questions NOT about how often they perform BG tests but whether some do home BG tests at all....Many good people there especially Natalie (developer) but not anything like FDMB...Really!!!! soooo it's hard to know what to regard as accurate. This is what I understand: " Novolin 70/30 is a mixture of two insulins, 70% of a longer acting insulin (Novolin N) and 30% an shorter acting insulin (Novolin R)." That is why I was asking if anyone has tried it..I can ask my DVM next time but they don't seem to know much more...Maybe I'll have to look up the "chemistry" involved or keep asking others while researching..Thanks!!!!!!
Novolin 70/30 is a man-made insulin (recombinant DNA origin) which is a mixture of 70% NPH, Human Insulin Isophane Suspension and 30% Regular, Human Insulin Injection that is structurally identical to the insulin produced by the human pancreas that is used control high blood sugar in patients with diabetes mellitus.
Suzie 2019 ss: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...AN6D_M3AYT6_kgqbHE7JWo6kSM/edit#gid=811447094
 
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Perhaps a silly suggestion but what about going to a pharmacy that has diabetes training and asking if you can sit down with the pharmacist to understand the properties/differences of the different intermediate acting insulins.
 
MrWorfMen's Mom said:
Perhaps a silly suggestion but what about going to a pharmacy that has diabetes training and asking if you can sit down with the pharmacist to understand the properties/differences of the different intermediate acting insulins.
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Hmmm.. didn't know that existed..not a bad idea..I suppose if i started talking about the crystlline portion of vetsulin, I'd get thrown out though..but for the other insulins..great idea. I think..but could be wrong..that people get the Novolin's mixed up..as I do...
 
Don't know if that service exists in the US or not Fran....I'm in Canada. Up here some pharmacies have consultation rooms and will sit down with diabetic patients to show them how to use their meter and explain the ins and outs to them. The pharmacist probably wouldn't know about Vetsulin per se unless they worked in a pharmacy that sells both human and veterinary products. Some pharmacists are certified in both human and veterinary meds.

You're right. People do get the insulins mixed up between "R" and "N" and I'd make sure to double check anything dispensed at a pharmacy before leaving because even they could make a mistake.
 
70/30 tends to knock down early numbers in the cycle due to the involvement of 'R' in the mix. For kitties, it's too hard, but for dogs, it's an acceptable insulin IF testing. It shouldn't be used for easily regulated/controlled dogs but for those, usually with other health issues, that just don't respond well to Vetsulin/Caninsulin or NPH, it can be the 'handle'. It's not to be used without plenty of thought and consideration as to the dog's safety. It's not as critical as using R as a bolus with cats but it's still fairly easily overdosed.
 
MrWorfMen's Mom said:
Thrilled to hear Elliott is still in remission. Gratifying to know he is doing well. I finally got my kitty into remission last Sept. so I finally know how great that feels. :D
Actually Novolin and Vetsulin are somewhat similar in that both are intermediate action, cause steep drops and don't last a full cycle in many kitties although the Novolin N does seem to last a bit longer than Vetsulin in some. I've no idea what canine metabolism is like but from the sounds of the research on Levemir, it's far slower than a feline's and more similar to a human. Have you spoken with a DVM about using Novolin N?
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Just to be clear, sometimes it seems on different sites that Novolin N is often interchanged with Novolin 70/30..Unless I have gone crazy..
Novolin 70/30 It is 70% intermediate acting insulin (N) and 30% short acting insulin (R). That is why I was asking if anyone has considered switching to this "human" mixture rather than the animal mixture "Vetsulin"...I hate sounding sinisterly but although there was a class action settlement around 2011-12 over Vetsulin, it succeeded mainly due to MERCK realizing how huge the group of animals killed were..and the publicity wasn't going away..extending around the world..It overwhelmed them...They wanted the cases GONE!!! And though they did settle, the claims nowhere compared to what would have occurred if that had been a human on a human medicine..as you all know it was regarded property damage mostly... Now that ""Science Diet" is in the news after killing pets due to Vit D overdosing, I am interested in watching what follows. I expected their IPO to collapse today but it only decreased 3% ...If any of your kitties are on Vetsulin, do not let your DVM dispense it in their own vials...as is being done by a few DVM'S with all of their insulins to save the customer money, they say. Merck claims that any DVM DOING THIS WILL HAVE THEIR LICENSE REVOKED. Merck does not sell the Vetsulin to the public and expects clients to buy from 3rd parties or from the DVM who buys from 3rd parties. Why is this?? (rhetorical question) Merck can't recommend companies to purchase VETSULIN from, since they have no way to know how the insulin is handled and stored and will not back the product???...unlike, Zoetis, who recommends ADW for purchasing Alphatrak strips...(but I purchase on ebay often) Anyway, I am just sharing "my" concerns... since having a terrible time with high FBG's and low nadirs...You all have a wonderful week with your kitties and thanks for all of your help!!!!

Novolin 70/30.. It is 70% intermediate acting insulin (N) and 30% short acting insulin (R).

SUZIE SS...https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...AN6D_M3AYT6_kgqbHE7JWo6kSM/edit#gid=811447094
Suzie, Trouble and ELLIOTT!!!
suzie%20and%20cats_1.jpg



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What a lovely little fur family you have Fran! Elliott is looking so good! I hope you get Suzie's insulin issues sorted out. Wish we could help more but alas cats are so much different from dogs that only very general prinicples apply (testing, carbs etc.) to both.
That said, I found this article about using ProZinc for canine patients. It's only recently been approved by the FDA and may be something you could look into for Suzie.
 
Thanks for all of your help..I surely appreciate your help with Elliott and even trying to help with Suzie (dog). I wish that SOMEONE would start a forum CDMB...like this one..People do not share spreadsheets and I have asked if they would consider it on the k-nine forum..NOT.I am not saying that "K-nine diabetes do not have caring members"...but it is far from like this site. After 1.5 years, I'll just continue to beat my head against the wall trying to figure out how to bring FBG's down 24/7 with out any helpful information from the DVM's..All just say..VETSULIN should do it!! Frank and I do not know what to do...He made sure after walking his daughter down the aisle at 5 pm, he was home by 6pm to give the insulin..and we never leave for more than a few hours..This is hell..but Suzie is not causing this ..It's the lack of veterinary interest in canine diabetes
Again, Thanks for caring....
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...AN6D_M3AYT6_kgqbHE7JWo6kSM/edit#gid=811447094
 
MrWorfMen's Mom said:
What a lovely little fur family you have Fran! Elliott is looking so good! I hope you get Suzie's insulin issues sorted out. Wish we could help more but alas cats are so much different from dogs that only very general prinicples apply (testing, carbs etc.) to both.
That said, I found this article about using ProZinc for canine patients. It's only recently been approved by the FDA and may be something you could look into for Suzie.
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Thanks MrWorfman's Mom..SEE.."cat people" reply even when it's a dog...I know that cats are much different but am reviewing cat SS's just to see if any kitties have issues with high FBG...There is no other place to go!!!
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...AN6D_M3AYT6_kgqbHE7JWo6kSM/edit#gid=811447094
 
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MrWorfMen's Mom said:
What a lovely little fur family you have Fran! Elliott is looking so good! I hope you get Suzie's insulin issues sorted out. Wish we could help more but alas cats are so much different from dogs that only very general prinicples apply (testing, carbs etc.) to both.
That said, I found this article about using ProZinc for canine patients. It's only recently been approved by the FDA and may be something you could look into for Suzie.
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OMG..THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!..You found this..It was just reported online...I need to research this..and share it with the canine bunch letting them know that the "cat people" DO CARE!!!
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...AN6D_M3AYT6_kgqbHE7JWo6kSM/edit#gid=811447094
 
Fran, while I may have kitties now, I grew up with dogs and love them just as much. In my book, if you love animals, you're my kind of peeps and we all have to help each other out!
You have me stumped though.....what is "FBG"?

ETA Do you mean Fasting Blood Glucose?
 
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MrWorfMen's Mom said:
Fran, while I may have kitties now, I grew up with dogs and love them just as much. In my book, if you love animals, you're my kind of peeps and we all have to help each other out!
You have me stumped though.....what is "FBG"?

ETA Do you mean Fasting Blood Glucose?
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YES...Fasting Blood Glucose...AND You are my hero!!! Whether Prozinc is right for Suzie..I don't know yet..will have to research it....Your willingness to help is sooooo appreciated!!!! BTW..What is ETA? It reminds of the preservative in CBC vials used to collect blood....or Estimated Time of Arrival?
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...AN6D_M3AYT6_kgqbHE7JWo6kSM/edit#gid=811447094
 
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ETA is "edited to add". My brain clicked in to your meaning just as I hit the post button! :woot:

I would say the answer to your question is yes at least for some kitties. I noticed with my girl if I was delayed getting home to test and feed her and she was making her urgent desire for food very obvious, BG would sometimes be up more than expected and then would come down rather than go up with her meal. I'm not sure though that the SS data alone would give you that info. You'd have to have details about when the last meal was in relation to the BG you are looking at. While most of us feed our cats through each cycle, some people employ feeding only in the first half of the cycle and others will feed right up to +9 or +10 for various reasons such as trying to lower pre-shot numbers. The latter case could also be a sign of higher FBG.
 
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