Good news about Maxx AND Mufasa

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DoubleTrouble said:
Well I don't want to jump the gun here, but Maxx has not had any insulin since our last event...he is staying in the upper 100's....he hasn't dipped too low again so we are happy here.
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That's great to hear! :thumbup We usually don't recommend for new members to shoot under 200 anyway, so that's good that you're holding off on the insulin. We prefer to see them in lower numbers, however, between ~70-160 on an AlphaTrak with the majority of the time spent in lower ranges. One thing you might want to look into (dare I say it? :lol: ;-) ) is a lower carb food to nudge those numbers further down and make this remission a strong one that will stick.
 
Hi Kpasa

LOL I hear you and understand the concern about carbs....right now I am leaving him on his Hill's...his vet is on vaca and we will talk further when she returns in a couple of days. He may stay at her office tomorrow with her fill in doc. He has dropped drastically a few times in this past week alone that I feel more comfortable leaving everything as is.(less the insulin) I found a food that I may like with lower carbs, Weruva, but I don't want to make too many changes on him right now. (and don't you know, it's more expensive!!! ugh) If it's better for him, I'll do it though. It's been really shaky with him. Like I said, I don't want to jump the gun that this is remission.... but that would be amazing! I am hopeful.

Mufasa is still on his insulin and his numbers have gone down a bit more. I am now getting his low at 188...that's a plus and ok for now. If he continues to go down that will be awesome. I'm not looking at his records right now, and sometimes confuse the two's charts, but if I remember correctly, when diagnosed Mufasa was in the 500's so we're getting there. ( I hope)

Thank you so much! :-D
 
If he isn't getting insulin you don't need to worry about a hypo. Some cats, like mine, seem to naturally run in the 40's when not on insulin and do just fine. :-D
 
Hi Nikki's Mom

Thank you for the tip. I'm just too new to this to make any changes without discussing with my vet first. I know you are right, but feel a little more comfortable with not making the change yet. This may not be remission, so we're just waiting to see. I'm still watching him like a hawk because two days of "crashing" has traumatized me.
Thank you again.
 
You might have mis-read my post. I'm not recommending any changes. Just noting that you don't have to worry about "crashing" if you aren't giving insulin.
 
oh ok lol gottcha...I'm so used to being told to switch foods, that I did mistake it to mean there was no problem switching...ooops sorry. Thank you again for the heads up! I guess I can sleep tonight. :-D
 
Still NO insulin for Maxx!!!! He is doing very well. Playing a lot...and much happier since he HATES injections...I am hoping we stay this way.

Mufasa is doing ok too, but still needs his insulin.

Thank you again so much everyone.
 
DoubleTrouble said:
Still NO insulin for Maxx!!!! He is doing very well.
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That's great news, Kathi. :mrgreen:

How long since insulin?
And what sort of blood glucose numbers are you getting for Maxx at the moment?
 
HI ....thank you so much...Maxx is reading in the lower to mid 100's...he's been off of insulin for a little over a week now....he's maintaining well so far....praying we stay here.

Kpasa...thank you, LOL Mufasa copies everything else of Maxx...this would be nice too!

thank you all again :-D
 
The reference range for normal glucose used by IDEXX labs is 70-150. Since you are using the Alphatrak, your readings should be in the same range. If all of Maxx's BG readings are within those limits, then great! If some of the readings are over the 150, that shows that there is still room for improvement and lower BG levels.

Cats are unique in that they can heal the pancreas and start to produce insulin on their own. Stopping the insulin too soon puts stress on the healing pancreas and can lead to further destruction of the beta cells. He still may need a tiny dose, maybe 0.1U to 0.25U to give his pancreas more time to heal and produce sufficient insulin on it's own.

There are two ways you could check to see how well Maxx is doing.
1. Take him to the vet and have a fructosamine test done. This checks the glucose levels over the last 2-3 weeks and should be <350.
2. Do a food test. When he is over 100 with your first test in the morning, hopefully before you have fed him, go ahead and feed normally but then test him again somewhere in the +3 to +4 hour time frame. The BG levels should have gone down, below 100, from you first reading if Maxx is producing enough insulin on his own to counteract the BG rise from the food.

The Veterinary Clinics of North America: Small Animal Practice had a special edition on Feline Diabetes last year (Volume 43, Issue 2, Pages 221-446 (March 2013)), that said BG levels over 117 were a cause for concern. Perhaps your vet has access to this article and can find that reference.

We'd like to see a strong remission for Maxx so you do not need to put him back on insulin. A tiny dose of insulin now may help him to achieve that strong remission.
 
Dr. Shrodinger

Thank you so much. Maxx is doing very well....he is still off of insulin and his readings remain the same, 100 - mid 100's...
Mufasa is still on insulin, but doing very well. I just had him neutered the other day, so he is healing well. I haven't done a BG curve on him as it would be out of wack right now anyway, but Weds. I will be curving him all day. I don't think this guy wants to come off of insulin any time soon. He is happy and doing very well though.

Thank you :smile:
 
Deb & Wink

Are you a licensed veterinarian? I'm not sure why you would be telling me to give my cat insulin when his vet has him off. His vet who has thoroughly examined him, monitored him for months, and knows HIS history and needs. If you have been reading my updates you would realize Maxx has a history of crashing frequently and rapidly. If I took your advice I would be putting him in great danger and possibly causing his death. You really shouldn't be advising others or deciding what units of insulin their cat needs when you are not an educated, licensed veterinarian and have NEVER even seen the particular pet. My cat is not a statistic, he is an individual little diabetic in treatment.
I also am not understanding why you would even comment on my post at all when you harassed me personally in a pm, because you did not approve of the treatment my cat and another members cat were in or the food our vets rightfully have prescribed to our cats. And then attempt to report me for supporting that member and sharing my experience and what I have learned with her.
Sorry but this makes me furious and it's pretty dangerous that you are attempting to tell others what is best for their cat, when actually your advice would be extremely harmful to mine in this situation.
 
I do believe you may have mis-read what Deb wrote.

Not once did she say put him back on insulin. She indicated there was a veterinary test which could be done - fructosamine - or a food trial to observe the glucose response (an empirical approach) - both things a vet might consider reasonable, if asked.

I know you want to believe in your vet. You might also consider that your vet is merely human and that it is prudent to ask about things just as you would with a human doctor. Veternary articles in peer-reviewed journals are an excellant source of information to discuss with your vet - to ask questions and get interpretation of the information and see how it might apply to your cat.
 
The newest standards for management of feline diabetes are to control clinical symptoms and achieve remission. Those standards have been published in articles in various vet journals since at least 2008. One of my goals here is to provide you with the resources to help your cat achieve remission.

The BG numbers you are telling us range into the "mid-100's" which could mean anything from BG levels of 130 to 180. Those higher ranges are not euglycemia.

I pointed out to you that BG numbers outside of normal ranges can result in further destruction of the insulin producing cells of the pancreas.
chronic glucose toxicity makes remission impossible because insufficient insulin-secreting tissue remains in the pancreas.
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I pointed out to you 2 methods you could use to verify if Maxx was producing enough insulin on his own.

My statements were taken from this article in Vet Clinic Small Animal volume 43,(2013) "Management of Diabetic Cats", the AAHA Diabetes Management Guidelines for Dogs and Catsand various other vet journal published articles and I stand by them.

I pointed you to some current, vet journal published, educational references on Feline Diabetes that you could share with your vet. Your choice to read them and share with your vet or not.

From Vet Clinic Small Animal 43(2013) 251-266, "Management of Diabetic Cats"
It is advisable that cats whose blood glucose concentrations increase and are consistently at more than 120 mg/dL be treated with insulin, beginning with small doses that can be ramped up quickly.
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BJM

I not only want to believe in my vet, but I have the upmost confidence in her as she is highly versed in the treatment of diabetics. Again, my vet has examined my cat, is fully aware of his needs and he is in the proper treatment. I am not sure why many continue to assume my vet is not qualified or up to date with her knowledge....I did not misread what she said. Nor did I misread the nasty msgs she left in my inbox.
As far as the test you mention, we have already been there.
My only purpose of posting was to update those supporting my choices as to the progress my cats have made. I did not ask for any advice or opinions.
I do appreciate input, but I addressed that particular person and she knows why.
 
We've just had experiences here that have resulted in problems when the vet acts confident ... and wasn't quite as expert as the confidence would lead you to believe. At least my vet recognizes she doesn't know about managing feline diabetes with Lantus.

So, what was the fructosamine?

(And since I've not read much about it, I just looked it up at Cornell University. I'm going to have to remember that if serum protein is low, fructosamine may be off.)
 
BJM said:
I do believe you may have mis-read what Deb wrote.

Not once did she say put him back on insulin. She indicated there was a veterinary test which could be done - fructosamine - or a food trial to observe the glucose response (an empirical approach) - both things a vet might consider reasonable, if asked.

I know you want to believe in your vet. You might also consider that your vet is merely human and that it is prudent to ask about things just as you would with a human doctor. Veternary articles in peer-reviewed journals are an excellant source of information to discuss with your vet - to ask questions and get interpretation of the information and see how it might apply to your cat.
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Well said, BJM... as is the information posted by Deb/Wink.
Thank you, ladies!



Donning my Moderator hat...

This thread has once again been brought to the attention of the Team of Moderators. There's some obvious friction between certain members apparent in this thread and others. The FDMB prides itself on being an open board subject to peer review. We don't have to agree with each other. We don't even have to like each other. Going forward, let's not allow personal feelings to take away from thoughts, ideas, and opinions expressed nor the sharing of experience and/or well documented information. Please be aware: In some cases, remarks are made for the benefit of all who are reading the thread. OTOH, if anyone's comments drive you crazy or are obviously unwanted... move on to someone who is receptive to your help. I'd also like to suggest everyone remove all chips from their shoulders to focus energy and attention on the reason we're all here... our cats.

BTW, there's a handy dandy little feature available in the board's software program. It's called "Friends & Foes". Find it in your User Control Panel. If you choose to make another member a "Foe" you'll never have to read anything else they have to say anywhere on the board. :-D

Questions? Please send me a PM.

Thank you and have a good day!
~ Jill
 
Donning my mod hat as well, as it is the only hat I own nowadays...

I'd like to talk about "unsolicited advice". Almost three years ago, when I was a newbie, I posted on a thread in Health that was about "where do you shoot your cat". A couple of people didn't like my answer. And the thread was hijacked by well-meaning members who told me that "I was doing it wrong and it can't be done that way". I was following my vet's advice to the letter. I trusted my vet completely. The advice was "unsolicited". It caused me to question my vet's advice. I came within one click of leaving the FDMB. And I ignored the advice of those who had offered it.

I didn't leave, obviously. But not once after that did I ever ask for advice about insulin shot location or dosage for Bob. In time, after reading posts for endless hours, I came to understand that my vet was too aggressive on dosage, and I "went rogue" and started reducing his dose. But I also felt like I was "alone" in doing so. I wasn't going to ask for help here, because I didn't want to hear again that I was "doing it wrong".

Somehow, Bob and I made it, and he went into remission for over two years.

Since the day I got advice that wasn't asked for, or welcome, I've posted over 12,000 times. More than any other member who has joined since May, 2011. Yeah, I talk a lot. But I would hope that at least a few dozen of those posts have been helpful to people.

The point? I almost quit back then. And anything I have said since that day might never have been said just because a couple of well-meaning people decided to offer advice where it wasn't asked for. Ironically, one of those advisors eventually became one of my dearest and most trusted friends here.

My advice? There are scores, hundreds, of well-meaning people here who give advice to new members. I hope you continue to do so. But pick your battles. And answer the questions asked, and know when to "not" say something. When people ask, they want to be told what to do and how best to proceed. But when they are told, without asking, they aren't going to be open to hearing it no matter how long you've been here or how good your advice is.

The last time some of the people in this thread locked horns, it was in the thread of a new member. The thread was hijacked and we had to close it. That member? She is gone. She hasn't visited the site at all for three weeks.
We will probably never know how she or her kitty are doing. And that makes me sad.

That's all I got...
 
Carl & Polly,

While I hear what you are trying to say, I don't find sending someone a message telling them how horrible they are, being accused of having an agenda to promote a particular food, or being told the harm they have caused another new member, or demanding they make a public apology for their wrong-doing (especially when I was not wrong in my statements) in any way well-meaning. Then having the nerve to continue to post on posts regarding my cats. Since I came on here I have repeatedly been "advised" about the food I feed my cats and how they should be switched. I looked into it and found it would not benefit my cats in any way. While remission is the ultimate goal, I choose to concern myself with my cats' overall health.

While one member may not know the entire situation and see no harm in what was said to me, the fact remains, it was not appreciated. After my Maxx crashed almost every day for weeks,( some days down to a reading of 30) the fact that he maintains numbers from 100 - to mid 100's is a God-send...so why anyone would concern themselves with suggesting I give him insulin or that my vet may not be aware of this, is beyond me. Not all situations are normal or statistical. And I was letting the folks here know that he was no longer crashing. Do I think he is in remission? No, but he is safe now and hasn't crashed since. he remains in treatment and is doing much better than he was.

The new member that hasn't been on left for the same reasons I almost did, and for the reasons I still have not done spread sheets. The over bearing of those against our choice of treatment for our cats. She writes me still so we can see how each other's cats are doing. It's a struggle for everyone, but being told you are doing it wrong, when it is simply a different approach than most on here is, not well meaning. Being repeatedly told your cats' food is not good, simple because others don't like it, or being told it is not a low carb food is ridiculous. Trying to convince a new member that a food is not designed for their cat or that it is a marketing strategy is absurd.
I chose to stay, as many on here HAVE helped, (ie; home testing). I have considered trying different approaches, but for now my cats are in the best treatment for them.

I do appreciate pointers, or advice, but NOT when it is being done in a condescending manner or a manner in which the person feels they are superior or more knowledgeable than others, including the number of highly qualified veterinarians I am working with.

NONE of us here have the absolute answer, including myself, because if we did, there would be no such thing as Feline Diabetes.....
 
Funny I never heard of that one but

there's also an old saying: "If you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all"
 
Perhaps the moderators could close out this thread as I am realizing it isn't about the cats or concern for them, but really a "my way or no way" game. I am not interested.
 
DoubleTrouble said:
Funny I never heard of that one but

there's also an old saying: "If you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all"
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Ever heard of the one, "People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones." :lol:

I imagine many could go on... "tit for tat" all day long, but what a huge waste of time, energy, and productivity.
Let's get back to the business of helping cats, please.



DoubleTrouble said:
Perhaps the moderators could close out this thread as I am realizing it isn't about the cats or concern for them...
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My thoughts exactly.

Done.
 
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