Going Back Into 200s? Insulin Bad?

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geekgirldany

geekgirldany

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Catee has been doing well... I believe. Please take a look at this spread sheet. I know I have not been doing midpoint numbers regular. I thought he was okay so I stopped taking them so often. This is a little long explanation.

On June 8, I got his new bottle of insulin. Please note the numbers since that date. During that time I also got him some more Purina DM Dry food. He would not eat it. He has a history of doing this with any kind of food. I let him go 2 days eating 2 to 3 ozs a day. I tried EVO dry, would not eat. I then broke down and got Orijen. Not preferred but I thought it was lower than most. He started eating that. Probably ate it for two weeks along with Purina DM. He would eat 2 ozs of one 2 ozs of the other.
I finally took it away from him on the 28th when he started into the 200s.

So as you can see on his SS, the last two days he has been in the 200s AMPS, around 160s/170s PMPS. What I find interesting is that he is not going down at midpoint, like yesterday. Notice that on 9th and 25th, his midpoint numbers were higher than PMPS.

Not sure what is going on. We live very very close to where the fireworks go off every year and there has been several rain and thunderstorms.

Could this be making his BG more...stress? He has been doing this before the July 4th though.
Could his Insulin gone bad... the mid point numbers make me wonder?
Was it the Orijen food?

Yesterday it seemed like his water intake was more.

Please note that I use the Alphatrak meter but I got some Relion strips last Friday and are now using both reflected on the SS. He also free feeds.

Would appreciate any help. Concerned at these numbers.

Thank you for your time.
 
I don't know. You are shooting some pretty low numbers. Sometimes the higher than pre shot nadirs can reflect too much insulin. Have you tried a few cycles without insulin to see where the numbers are? Might be worth a try.

I definitely would keep up the effort to eliminate dry and reduce to lower carb wet.
 
Oh really? I did not think of that. I know that the Alphtrak is about 50 more than Relion. The forum generally goes by Relion numbers.
So, I may be giving him too much insulin which is making his numbers go up? Like his pancreas/body is trying to compensate for the extra insulin?

Say AlphaTrak shows 160, that would probably be 110 on relion. Would it still be appropriate to shoot?

No I haven't tried without insulin. A few cycles, so if I remember correctly cycles are 12 hours correct? I can try that and see where he is at.
 
It is just something to try. No, I personally wouldn't shoot at 110. 150 is about my limit. Sometimes an inverted curve with a higher nadir can be too much insulin.

I would try one cycle and see. If he shoots up into higher ranges, then go back. If he stays about the same, then try it for another cycle.
 
See my signature link Glucometer Notes for feline specific reference numbers for cats using various meter types.

Do not just add 50 mg/dL to a human meter reading to estimate the AlphaTrak. At 50 mg/dL on a human meter, an AlphaTrak reads about 68 mg/dL. The difference is not consistent over all numbers.
 
Thank you I remember that page... that helps a great deal.
Right now I am taking it on both the meters until his numbers get settled.

So he is 179 alphatrak, 129 Relion. Should I shoot or hold off?
 
I don't know. I wouldn't shoot that low, but you have in the past. When you did on the 4th, you got the higher amps. I wonder if he dropped overnight and bounced. You hold the syringe; you decide, but I would be tempted to see what he does if you don't....
 
Interesting numbers. So, you got an almost identical cycle on no insulin.

I can't remember. What is he eating? Is there any way to reduce the carb content of his food and see if that tips the scales downward?
 
Yes, it is strange. I went ahead and gave him .20 shot. If you would take a look at his numbers today. His midpoint this afternoon was actually higher than the PMPS. I know he free feeds but he eats more in the evening than morning. He eats Purina DM Dry. I've tried Young Again and EVO. He gets started on Young Again and then stops. Purina DM dry seems to be the only thing he will eat. Then there are times he will stop eating it for a few days.
 
It's really pretty flat - only a few points difference. Remember there's that 20% variance.

I'd continue to try for the wet low carb. I wonder if he was eating lower carb, if he'd go off insulin. He's so close. Have you seen the Dr. Lisa's ideas on transitioning reluctant eaters?
 
Well he was back in the 200s on the Alphameter, 169 Relion. I gave him .40, want to see how he does on that today.
He probably would go off insulin if I could get him to switch. It did happen when he was first diagnosed and was eating Young Again. I have tried believe me I have but he has had problems with his eating since about 2011 when he got sick from Science Diet food. He is so easy to stop eating. I've tried Dr. Lisa's suggestions to no avail.

I might be having to take him to the vet to see not only these numbers but also his back is turning black. He is (as you can see) a solid white cat. He spends the mornings in the sunroom and stays in the sun most of the day. I do not know if it is this that is causing his skin to turn dark/black or something else. The vet told me one time he was dumping pigment but did not explain the cause.
He looked like this before going back on insulin in Nov 2014, once he started on insulin it went away.
 
Interesting. Never heard of that.

Well, you can think of it like this. He is on minute doses, under the renal threshold always and in safe numbers. He may be a kitty who just surfs along for months before finally going OTJ. But meanwhile, he is in the best possible situation, numbers wise.
 
Hate to keep bugging the forum...Would appreciate a glance at Catee's SS. Yesterday morning I gave him Young Again before his shot. As you can see it is lower than previously. Unfortunately, as always, he would not continue eating the food and started walking up to it and then turning away.

In the afternoon he went back to Purina DM dry. Notice his PMPS, then +2 numbers, nice number, then he slowly builds up of course is free feeding, then his AMPS is 242 Relion 165.

I am still very confused with this numbers. Purina DM recently changed their design, etc. Says it is the same food. I am wondering if it is different. Although I have previously fed him two bags of the "new design" food. This third bag is when it seems like his numbers started going up into the 200s. A week on new bag and he is going high? They are now putting on the bags that it has 18% carbs... I thought it was around 14% to 16%?

I am going to get some EVO tomorrow and hope he will eat that.

Could he have some kind of infection causing him to gradually go up? He acts okay.

Maybe I am just overreacting but just seems strange for him to suddenly be in the 200s on the Alphatrak.
 
. Think how bored we'd be around this place if no one asked questions. I don't know. If Purina is even admitting the carb level is going up, it'd sure be nice if he'd eat something else. (If they say 18%, the way we figure it - which is more accurate - it is probably even higher)

What did he used to eat before he was diabetic? I hope the Evo is his thing. Is there any snack he really likes - sometimes cats love cooked chicken - that you could dress the food with?

Have you asked the vet about his inappetite?
 
I agree on the Purina... something is up. They use to not even put the carb percentage on there. We had to guess it was 14% to 16%.

Before he was diabetic he ate Purina indoor cat food. I had him on Science Diet for awhile before that and he got very very sick. That is when all the issues with food started. The vet just says he is a picky eater after that episode. He was in the hospital for a week, being force fed, and no telling what else.

He loves Orijen food, he will eat it but is about 18% carbs. I've gotten him to eat EVO only once for a few days then he stopped. I am so crossing my fingers this time will be different. He loves food with chicken in it.
 
Then you might try the chicken. Plain cooked chicken, no skin, no seasonings. Put some on top first, then some hidden down in the food.

No chance he has pancreatitis? It's something diabetic cats can get that really affects their appetite.
 
I will give that chicken idea a try.

I thought of pancreatitis, but he is eating the Purina DM 4ozs a day. So I don't know.
 
Have you ever tired FortiFlora? It works really well for some cats. It is a probiotic that has the animal digest that makes dry food so appealing. You buy it on line or from the vet. Good for the digestive system and can act as an appetite enhancer.
 
I've used it when trying to get him to eat canned food.... he would just lick it off :rolleyes:

I've wondered if he might be getting insulin resistance to Prozinc. Develop antibodies against it??
 
geekgirldany said:
I've used it when trying to get him to eat canned food.... he would just lick it off :rolleyes:

I've wondered if he might be getting insulin resistance to Prozinc. Develop antibodies against it??
Click to expand...

Maybe if you dressed the top and then buried some in the food?

My uneducated guess would be that if he was resistant to ProZinc, he would not be responding at all. But your tiny doses keep him in really nice numbers, so I would guess not. Changing at this point would be problematic. You're giving .2/.4. What dose would you try starting on for another insulin?
 
Going to use it on the EVO tomorrow if necessary to get him to eat it.

You are right, he is still okay with the smaller doses. More than likely the vet would want to put him on Vetsulin and it is fast acting. Would not know where to start for it.
 
So the EVO did not go over well. Ate it one day and then would not eat anymore. I put out the Purina DM and he pounced on it. Ate 2 ozs EVO yesterday, 2 ozs Purina DM. His numbers increased the most I have seen since Jan 2015. AMPS 280 Relion 202. At a lost here... I thought about giving him .60 shot but was compelled by my friend not to do it. She is afraid it will make him go to low.

Looks like I am stuck with him eating Purina DM dry. Should I slowly go up on his insulin? Like .40 for two days, then move up to .60 if needed?
 
Well, he has to eat. You can keep trying to introduce other stuff but meanwhile, I'd just adjust the insulin up to match. At least it doesn't make him soar high like it does some kitties.
 
Thank you for the help. He actually has done quite well while on Purina DM. I will adjust his insulin and do some spot checks to make sure he isn't dropping to quick. I know the rebound thing could also come into play. So I will raise his insulin slowly.
 
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