Glucose going down without insulin??

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kimouette

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Hi everyone,

Ma 13 year old female cat has been diagnosed with diabetes less than a month ago. Eversince that, I have NOT been monitoring my cat at home cuz my veterinarian told me she was against that.. she wants to be THE ONE in charge of my cat's glucose curves and tests :-x Anyway, I decided to go ahead and buy a Bayer Contour to monitor my cat, but I'm afraid of the results I see!

My cat is either cured, very sick, or there's something I'm missing
This morning her BG was 7.1 and two hours later (so 10 minutes after she ate her meal, while I was prepared to see the numbers climbing to something above 10) her BG was 5.6 . Normally I would give her 1.5 units of Caninsulin right after the meal (canned Purnina DM by the way), but with these results, and remembering what my veterinarian told me (Titi's glucose is dropping of about 5 for each unit of insulin), I'm afraid I'll just directly cause hypoglycemia!

This would be the first time I am not giving her injection (normally it's twice a day)... am I doing something wrong? or anything I'm missing?
I just read about Somoyogi effect but I'm not sure to understand...With that effect, if my cat had a "nocturnal hypoglycemia" she might show mixed up results like that? And if that's the case, I still dont know if I should give her injection or not!

Any advice would be very appreciated!
Kim
:(
 
kimouette said:
Hi everyone,

Ma 13 year old female cat has been diagnosed with diabetes less than a month ago. Eversince that, I have NOT been monitoring my cat at home cuz my veterinarian told me she was against that.. she wants to be THE ONE in charge of my cat's glucose curves and tests :-x Anyway, I decided to go ahead and buy a Bayer Contour to monitor my cat, but I'm afraid of the results I see!

My cat is either cured, very sick, or there's something I'm missing
This morning her BG was 7.1 and two hours later (so 10 minutes after she ate her meal, while I was prepared to see the numbers climbing to something above 10) her BG was 5.6 . Normally I would give her 1.5 units of Caninsulin right after the meal (canned Purnina DM by the way), but with these results, and remembering what my veterinarian told me (Titi's glucose is dropping of about 5 for each unit of insulin), I'm afraid I'll just directly cause hypoglycemia!

This would be the first time I am not giving her injection (normally it's twice a day)... am I doing something wrong? or anything I'm missing?
I just read about Somoyogi effect but I'm not sure to understand...With that effect, if my cat had a "nocturnal hypoglycemia" she might show mixed up results like that? And if that's the case, I still dont know if I should give her injection or not!

Any advice would be very appreciated!
Kim
:(
Hi Kim,
where are you located? Just asking as I recognize your test numbers; I am in Canada, and know that must be not in the US.

I am so glad you ignored your vet and started testing at home! If you had NOT tested and gone ahead with the shot, you could have caused your cat to go way too low. You are right; by giving a shot when you have that 5.6 could have caused a hypo. Smart decision on your part!

For the food, you could likely get a better food than that vet food; just look through Binky's list and select some foods that are under 10% carbs.
Binky’s Food Lists
Feeding Your Cat: Know The Basics of Feline Nutrition

There are many cats who are DIET CONTROLLED so by removing high carb dry foods and treats, you can have a good chance of getting your cat off insulin.

Normally, if the pancreas is not functioning 100%, we need to help it along by giving insulin shots. It's a way that we can help out while the pancreas is healing. When it's healed, you may find that you need to give less and less insulin and hopefully, one day, be able to stop giving insulin. It's for that reason you are wise to be testing before shots! For all you know, you may not need to give insulin, or you may be able to drop that dose down.
Pancreatic function

You can test her every 3hrs or so and record the numbers you are getting. .... just post in here what the numbers are and we'll see how she does with this skipped shot. If her numbers go up by next shot time, maybe you can reduce the dose and see if she dose OK.
 
Hi Gayle,

We dont know each other since it's the first time I post something on the forum! But I'm glad to meet you and thanks very much for the quick reply. I'm a french Canadian that moved to Switzerland 5 years ago. This is why my English is not perfect!

For the food I know what you mean, but here in Switzerland we dont have all the labels cited in the cat food list everyone is talking about. I found a good one though, it's made in Germany and available in Fressnapf Switzerland, it's called Medica Petbalance. It has 0.18% of carbohydrate and even their dry food has less than 2% which is almost a miracle for dry food! I will keep on feeding my cat with purina dm for a little while since I still have 20 cans left, but after that I might just try the Petbalance and monitor closely when changing.

I was scared 2 hours ago cuz I monitored my cat 4 times today and until the third one the BG was going lower and lower (with no insulin remember!). I definitely wont give her an insulin shot, and now I'm wondering if she is maybe temporary cured from her diabetes. Look at these numbers :

(11hours after her last insulin shot)
4:50: BG 7.1
then she eats normally, I do not give her insulin
6h50 : BG 5.6
she eats a little
7h50 : 4.4
she eats a little
9h50 : 4.4
+ I just did keto-Diastix test with her urine , both glucose and ketone show a 0 value.

Is it a dream or is my cat in remission? Or maybe my glucometer is completely messed-up. I'm going to ANOTHER vet tomorrow just to check how accurate my glucometer is, but if it's ok, than it'll be one of the happiest day of my life!

Kim
confused_cat
 
The only way to know if your cat is in remission, is if you continue to home test her without giving insulin. Typically we do this for two weeks before making that determination.

While food selection may be a challenge in Switzerland, if you can feed her wet/canned food only and remove the dry completely, you will be helping her tremendously. Dry food is not good for cats, no matter the quality of ingredients. Check our this site for more information about this: www.catinfo.org

Also, when looking at canned food, typically pate style without gravy, chunks, slices, etc are lower in carb. The gravy is typically comprised of higher carb components.

I know in the US, you can return the purina dm to the vet and they have to give you a refund - all you have to tell them is that the cat stopped eating it. The purina dm is not made of better quality than Friskies or Fancy Feast - both products made by Purina) and the dm is more expensive. If your stores sell Friskies or Fancy Feast - those are fine products to purchase - just remember with Fancy Feast you want the classic varieties and with Friskies the pate style is typically lower carb.
 
While food selection may be a challenge in Switzerland, if you can feed her wet/canned food only and remove the dry completely, you will be helping her tremendously. Dry food is not good for cats, no matter the quality of ingredients. Check our this site for more information about this: www.catinfo.org
Unfortunately I am out of the house at least 10 hours a day for work, which means I would have to leave my cat with her canned food all dried out! I give my cat 100gX2 (day and night = 1 can) before each injection but she'll only eat 2/3 or even less of her ration. I just HAVE to leave dry food for her, but the portion is ridiculous (10g in the morning and 10g for the night). This means 85% of what she eats is canned food and the 15% left has only 1.8% of carbs (which is actually less than canned PurinaDM). If i didn't have a job I would probably not give her this little portion of dry food, but I really don't see any other solution!
I'll ask my vet what's Purina policies about refund, but i doubt they're that nice with Europeans!

My cats results are soooo mixed up! It looks like when she eats, her BG goes DOWN?! Isn't it supposed to be the opposite?

  • (11hours after her last insulin shot)
    4:50: BG 7.1
    then she eats her "preshot food ration" normally, I do not give her insulin
    6:50 : BG 5.6
    she eats a little
    7:50 : BG 4.4
    she eats a little
    9:50 : BG 4.4
    10h30 Did keto-Diastix test with her urine , both glucose and ketone show a 0 value.
    She eats a little
    17:07: BG 8.7 (highest level of the day, not even after a meal)
    then she eats her "preshot food ration" normally, I do not give her insulin
    19:55 : BG 5.1

In other words everytime she eats, her BG is lowered! Is it possible that she doesn't "digest" glucose like other normal cats?
 
I can't comment on the bg levels and why you are seeing the numbers go down the way you are.

I'd like to suggest something you can do with the wet food that may help.

1) if you add water to the food, it will keep it moist longer and it won't get dried out - I go to the extreme and use 1 full can of water to 1 can of food - others will tell you that 1/3 or 1/2 can of water is plenty.

2) if you take suggestion 1 and put it in small containers, ice cube trays or even plastic baggies and freeze it, you can then serve it frozen - as it will take several hours for it to thaw and by that time, she will have eaten the fresh food and be ready for the once frozen food.

Personally, I use plastic baggies to freeze the food, as I can shape it however I want and to empty it, just turn the bag inside out and the frozen food comes out pretty easily.

These are just some suggestions if you want to try wet food only and see if that works while you are away.
 
I leave the canned food out for 12 hours at a shot. I've never had a problem with the food due to it being left out.

Freezing it, or putting a freezer pack under the plate will keep it cool, if the cat prefers it that way. I'll note that some of mine actually prefer it when it gets a bit dried out.
 
In a cat with a functioning pancreas, the BG will go down a few hours after a meal. This is a good sign! Your kitty may not need insulin for very long (if at all!). Great job hometesting even though your vet told you not to, it is the best way to keep your kitty safe!
 
You guys are great! Thanks for all the answers and special thanks to you Melissa. I'm going to the (NEW) vet today (one that encourages home monitoring) and I'll ask him to :

-Check my cat's ears (she has sort of red bruises/bumps becuz of the pricking)
-Compare my glucometer's values with his own
-Eliminate all other possible diseases : mainly urinary problems (she has had many of these last year) and kidney failure
-Confirm that my "target values" and decision after monitoring are the good ones for my cat. Right now I am relying on http://www.yourdiabeticcat.com/protocol.html (see the chart near the bottom of the page)
-Tell me how often I should be monitoring her BG
-Check her back legs (cuz yes her diabetes has affected her legs )
-Check her paws (that has nothing to do with diabetes, but her paws look dry and wrinkled, I'll probably have to choose another litter brand)

And in the meantime, here is a picture showing the content of the German canned food I found at the store. It looks good to me, but if you guys notice anything special that I should be aware of, please let me know!

Oh and thanks Hillary for the "frozen food"trick. I'll try it today (I'm not working today so I'll see if my cat minds eating melted food and how long it takes before melting).

Kim
 

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I don't know how you calculated the % of calories from carbs in that food, but 0.18% seems impossible with wheat bran as the second ingredient. If you used the guaranteed analysis to generate that number, that tends to be really inaccurate, because all that are listed are minimums and maximums... the numbers can vary a lot from batch to batch. You need to call the food manufacturer and either ask for the "as fed values" for the food, which will tell you calories from carbs (we try to stay under 7%) or the "dry matter basis values" which you can use to calculate calories from carbs.
 
I would not feed that food--as Ry mentioned, with wheat bran as the second ingredient, it's likely high in carbs. Most canned foods that don't have grain in the ingredients are low carb--so when reading the label you want to get something without any wheat, corn, soy, or rice. It may take some hunting on your behalf, but until then you can always continue to feed the Purina DM. As far as vet diets go, it's not a bad food, just expensive. It's actually the only prescription diet that is good for a diabetic cat.

Do you have Fancy Feast in Switzerland? There are many flavors of Fancy Feast that are good for diabetics.
 
I showed the Petbalance can to my new vet and she agrees with you guys, PurinaDM is still better. But the reason she mentioned is not the same though, she says it's too low in protein... :?:
Like I said, I still have plenty of PurinaDM cans, so there's no rush, and the BG levels are pretty damn good with that specific food. I'm so scared that something might go wrong with another bran that I'll have to be 300% before changing to something else. With PurinaDM her BG either goes down or remains the same.

Julia, FancyFeast does not exist in Switzerland. Actually, I cant find anything else than huge, really known bran from the Binky’s Food Lists. I'll keep on searching, but whatever I find, I'm sure I'll have place an order on the net, there's no way the big stores near where I live have anything suitable for my cat.

Oh and the BG values are still good! It's been 48 hours without insulin and my cat looks great! My glucometer shows the same values as my vet's (0.1 of difference) and she agrees with my choice of not giving insulin with the BG numbers I got since 2 days. I added a spreadsheet to my signature, all the values are green or blue!

She wants to wait for the fructosamine results before being completely satisfied with the current situation, but knowing that my cat had 29.4 BG values 1 month ago, and now around 5.5 is pretty encouraging!
:-D
 
Don't give up on your food search. There are lots of novelty foods out there that are only sold in specialty pet stores. So, you may find something good in the local store that you can feel comfortable serving. We do have members in England and Germany, I don't know if the same brands are available where you are that is in other parts of Europe - but if you start a new thread asking for European food recommendations, I'm sure these members can help you.
 
Julia, thanks for the 2 links, but geez I have to stop searching now. I was really motivated yesterday, spent almost 5 hours copying/pasting each and every bran in google switzerland then translating from german to french or english (cuz french is my first language), then using http://www.scheyderweb.com/cats/catfood.html website to find out the carb numbers: I'm either not 100% sure of the results I get (maybe some "other minerals " are missing) or could eliminated couple of bran. I'm getting a headache and no confirmation. Am I supposed to call each and every company? Why do they make things so complicated?
:sad:

I'll start a new topic for European food list and see where that goes but I definitely cant do this on my own.
 
kimouette said:
Julia, thanks for the 2 links, but geez I have to stop searching now. I was really motivated yesterday, spent almost 5 hours copying/pasting each and every bran in google switzerland then translating from german to french or english (cuz french is my first language), then using http://www.scheyderweb.com/cats/catfood.html website to find out the carb numbers: I'm either not 100% sure of the results I get (maybe some "other minerals " are missing) or could eliminated couple of bran. I'm getting a headache and no confirmation. Am I supposed to call each and every company? Why do they make things so complicated?
:sad:

I'll start a new topic for European food list and see where that goes but I definitely cant do this on my own.

Don't kill yourself trying to get exact carb counts if you don't have them! I would use the lists provided as a guide to see if you can find a few different things--then read the ingredient labels and make sure there are no baddie ingredients--like wheat, corn, soy, or rice. You can also always post the ingredients here and ask if you're not sure what you're looking for like you did with the other food. As long as there are no ingredients that stand out as high carbs, I would feel comfortable feeding that food. I've often fed Bandit foods before that I don't have the exact carb count for, but since it had all lower-carb ingredients (meat w/very few vegetables or starches), I knew the food was low carb without the chart.
 
I have a dumb question to ask... :oops:
I want to know how much water my cat is drinking everyday. And all the water she gets is from the canned food + the 50ml I ad to it. On the can label, it says 78% of moisture and the can is 195g. Does that mean my cat drinks 78/100 X 195 = 152.1ml ? + of course the 50ml I ad ?Or is a part of what they call moisture lost somewhere?
 
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