George - 300-400s

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Hi Rachel and George
Looking at the signature it says negative for Acro. When did you get the test done? Did they also test for IAA.?
From the yellow sticky
Increasing the dose:
  • Hold the dose for 3 - 5 days (6 - 10 consecutive cycles) if nadirs are less than 200 before increasing the dose by 0.25 unit.
    • if your cat is new to numbers under 200, it is recommended to hold the dose for at least 8-10 cycles before increasing.
    • when your cat starts to see nadirs under 100, hold the dose for at least 10 cycles before increasing.
  • Increase by 0.25 unit after 3 days (6 consecutive cycles) if nadirs are greater than 200, but less than 300.
  • Increase by 0.5 unit after 3 days (6 consecutive cycles) if nadirs are greater than 300.
George does have some nadirs under 300 so I would increase to 4.25 units. If after 6 cycles he has not dropped into blue BGs I would increase again to 4.5 U. Don’t wait 7 days.
Good luck with the new dose.
 
Hi Rachel and George
Looking at the signature it says negative for Acro. When did you get the test done? Did they also test for IAA.?
From the yellow sticky
Increasing the dose:
  • Hold the dose for 3 - 5 days (6 - 10 consecutive cycles) if nadirs are less than 200 before increasing the dose by 0.25 unit.
    • if your cat is new to numbers under 200, it is recommended to hold the dose for at least 8-10 cycles before increasing.
    • when your cat starts to see nadirs under 100, hold the dose for at least 10 cycles before increasing.
  • Increase by 0.25 unit after 3 days (6 consecutive cycles) if nadirs are greater than 200, but less than 300.
  • Increase by 0.5 unit after 3 days (6 consecutive cycles) if nadirs are greater than 300.
George does have some nadirs under 300 so I would increase to 4.25 units. If after 6 cycles he has not dropped into blue BGs I would increase again to 4.5 U. Don’t wait 7 days.
Good luck with the new dose.
George & Acromegaly:
George was diagnosed with Diabetes on July 2, 2021 and looks like we got him tested at end of July 2021 for Acro at Michigan State. At the time he was on .5 units of PZI (sounds like a dream now!). Here is what the vet put in his record: Comments: we have the results back from Michigan State on the insulin like growth factor checking for possible Acromegaly. It is higher than normal at 227 with high normal of 92 per lab but I also had chance to already call VSNT and go over the case a bit with Dr. W who has 2 diabetic cats herself. See states that most Acromegaly cats have a IGF even much higher than this like in the 1000's or higher. She also stated that newly diabetic cats that may not yet be controlled can also have this factor be elevated and she thinks we need to give Geoge time on the PZI and that we would need to be much higher on the dose before considering the possibility of Acromegaly.

So maybe we should reconsider this at this time. I will say he doesn’t have many of the other characteristics such as big head, feet, enlarged abdomen, light adverse, weight gain, etc.

George & IAA:
I hadn’t heard of this one before. When we had George on PZI, he would dip down into 200s and even high 100s fairly often. I can post those curves if you want to see. His bounces were always really high on PZI. I even gave him PZI every 8 hours trying to get the highs under control. That’s the main reason we switched to Lantus this month - I was hoping longer acting result. Do you think his BG would dip down if IAA?

George Lantus Dose:
His neuropathy has gotten so much worse over the past month or so. I think I am going to go ahead and bump him to 4.5 and keep close watch on nadir. He has a libre sensor, so I see his BG from every 1 minute with the sensor. I know I need to be careful with Hypo, but poor guy is gimping around quite a bit. With numbers no where near <70, I don’t think it’s super risky.

Thank you so much for your response! I am so appreciative of the wisdom in this group!
 
How much PZI was he on when you swapped to Lantus? Did you do a straight swap or did you reduce the dose?
Ok, if you are able to monitor closely, increase to 4.5U.
Are you giving George anything for the neuropathy? There is a medication called methyl B 12 you can buy from Amazon or lifeline.com and it’s called Zobaline. Once you can get the BGs down into a more normal range the neuropathy usually gets much better. My Sheba had it badly but she eventually regained all her mobility once the BGs returned to more normal levels. And I gave her zobaline.
FELINE DIABETIC NEUROPATHY

I am going to tag @Wendy&Neko as she is very experienced in acro and IAA and will be able to advise you
 
We were at 3.75 PZI every 8 hours when we switched. Vet told us to give 2 units of Lantus every 12 hours. But I aggressively increased that. I think it was Wendy that said to increase to 3.5 or 4 units so we did that about a week ago. I gave him 4.5 this morning.

I did find Zobaline last year (maybe from this message board ). We give him one daily.

Thanks for all of your help! It is so nice not being alone in this and having experienced support!
 
With an IGF-1 of 227, George is definitely positive for acromegaly. The nonsense about over 1000 means that Dr. W has been reading articles written in Europe, where IGF-1 testing is done at the Royal Vet College in England. They use a different measurement system (nmol/L) than that used in the US at Michigan State University (ng/ml). If tests are done at MSU, anything over 92 is positive. In the UK it's over 1000. And Dr. W is not the first vet to make this mistake - we've seen other people whose vets didn't believe the cat had acromegaly for that very same reason. Coincidentally, we normally suggest people wait at least 73 days after starting insulin to get tested, as there can be some false negatives. But in this case he did test positive.

As far as other symptoms, I've read in one paper than only 35% of acros have clinical symptoms on diagnosis. Neko's only sign, other than her dose and hunger, was one teary eye, which I later found was caused by soft tissue growth in her tear duct. At the time, the vet didn't think it meant anything.

As for dose, I'd go ahead and increase him every 3 days/6 cycles if all you are seeing is nadirs above 200.
Do you think his BG would dip down if IAA?
Neko also had IAA, and her numbers did dip down. Not all do, it's another condition that has a range of values.
 
With an IGF-1 of 227, George is definitely positive for acromegaly. The nonsense about over 1000 means that Dr. W has been reading articles written in Europe, where IGF-1 testing is done at the Royal Vet College in England. They use a different measurement system (nmol/L) than that used in the US at Michigan State University (ng/ml). If tests are done at MSU, anything over 92 is positive. In the UK it's over 1000. And Dr. W is not the first vet to make this mistake - we've seen other people whose vets didn't believe the cat had acromegaly for that very same reason. Coincidentally, we normally suggest people wait at least 73 days after starting insulin to get tested, as there can be some false negatives. But in this case he did test positive.

As far as other symptoms, I've read in one paper than only 35% of acros have clinical symptoms on diagnosis. Neko's only sign, other than her dose and hunger, was one teary eye, which I later found was caused by soft tissue growth in her tear duct. At the time, the vet didn't think it meant anything.

As for dose, I'd go ahead and increase him every 3 days/6 cycles if all you are seeing is nadirs above 200.

Neko also had IAA, and her numbers did dip down. Not all do, it's another condition that has a range of values.
Oh… Well I am heart broken reading this. And I need to do a bunch more research on Acro now.
Curious on the prognosis of Acro and treatment options. I can look around / research that though. Dang. If I had known, we could’ve done something a year ago. Kicking myself on that one, but I just took negative at face value and didn’t question it. I also never received an actual report which again is my mistake. I hadn’t read about hunger as a symptom of Acro. George is a constant grazer, compulsive really.

I am going to do some research now. If you can point me to some great articles / info, let me know. I assume I can find an area in this message board on Acro with pinned messages, etc. But I’ll take whatever help you can give me with direction to take from here.
 
Start reading this forum: Acromegaly / IAA / Cushings Cats and this post: Acromegaly - the basics.
This one is a good start: Acromegaly Treatment Options
This is great. I read through these and the pinned posts as well. Sounds like my next steps are to find an internal medicine doctor near me to check out George’s heart and brain? Then depending on how surgery safe is is, maybe then start planning on the Hypophysectomy? George is old (17.5 years). Not sure how his body will handle. What are you thoughts on this? Or would you maybe try the Cabergoline first?

Also, take a look at his SS / Libre sensor curves… His #s are crazy high. Tonight will be his 6th dose at 4.5. I saw someone say for Acro cats to bump them 1 unit if nadir wasn’t less that 300. So maybe bump him to 5.5 tomorrow morning?

Lastly, do you think a depot insulin is best for an Acro cat? Seems like if the tumor decides to stop causing IGF-1, then his BG could drop a lot and him go hypo. So wouldn’t it be safer to not have a depot in that case? Like PZI? Just thinking ahead.
 
I didn't get an IM vet right away, not until Neko got a bit more complicated. A cardio vet is best for checking out the heart. You don't really need to have his brain checked, imaging is not necessary unless you are proceeding with treatment such as hypophysectomy or SRT (radiation). Since George is 17.5, I might not consider hypophysectomy due to the risks. Both it and SRT require anaesthesia, at least a couple days worth, so getting his heart checked (echocardiogram) would be a good first step. Hypophysectomy is only available in North America at Washington State U and AMC in New York as far as I know. So you have travel plus it's pretty expensive. Many people have good results with cabergoline, but I've also read it depends on size of the tumour. It's a relatively cheap option to try first, and can help alleviate many acro symptoms, include reducing the insulin dose needed.

Not sure who said to bump up the dose by 1 unit, I would suggest 0.5 units increase at this point. That's also what TR suggests.
Lastly, do you think a depot insulin is best for an Acro cat? Seems like if the tumor decides to stop causing IGF-1, then his BG could drop a lot and him go hypo. So wouldn’t it be safer to not have a depot in that case? Like PZI? Just thinking ahead.
This is a two pronged answer. First, the tumour doesn't change that quickly on it's own. It's not like you need 10 units 1 day and 5 the next. I went through SRT twice with Neko and we've had several other people on Lantus or Levemir do SRT or cabergoline safely by following TR for dosing and guidance from here. Hypophysectomy is a different thing as it removes the pituitary, and changes can be immediate. I'd follow whatever the surgeon doing that work suggests. I've seen cats both on longer lasting and on Prozinc have hypophysectomy.

The second part to this answer is which depot insulin to use. Lantus has an acid base, and at some point you could find that George notices a sting at the higher doses. If that happens, people usually switch to Levemir which is not acid base. It has similar action, though on average later onsets and nadirs by a couple hours.
 
I didn't get an IM vet right away, not until Neko got a bit more complicated. A cardio vet is best for checking out the heart. You don't really need to have his brain checked, imaging is not necessary unless you are proceeding with treatment such as hypophysectomy or SRT (radiation). Since George is 17.5, I might not consider hypophysectomy due to the risks. Both it and SRT require anaesthesia, at least a couple days worth, so getting his heart checked (echocardiogram) would be a good first step. Hypophysectomy is only available in North America at Washington State U and AMC in New York as far as I know. So you have travel plus it's pretty expensive. Many people have good results with cabergoline, but I've also read it depends on size of the tumour. It's a relatively cheap option to try first, and can help alleviate many acro symptoms, include reducing the insulin dose needed.

Not sure who said to bump up the dose by 1 unit, I would suggest 0.5 units increase at this point. That's also what TR suggests.

This is a two pronged answer. First, the tumour doesn't change that quickly on it's own. It's not like you need 10 units 1 day and 5 the next. I went through SRT twice with Neko and we've had several other people on Lantus or Levemir do SRT or cabergoline safely by following TR for dosing and guidance from here. Hypophysectomy is a different thing as it removes the pituitary, and changes can be immediate. I'd follow whatever the surgeon doing that work suggests. I've seen cats both on longer lasting and on Prozinc have hypophysectomy.

The second part to this answer is which depot insulin to use. Lantus has an acid base, and at some point you could find that George notices a sting at the higher doses. If that happens, people usually switch to Levemir which is not acid base. It has similar action, though on average later onsets and nadirs by a couple hours.
Okay. Cardiologist first. Got it! SRT may have been what I was thinking as opposed to hypophysectomy. It has a high success rate if I remember. Seems like I read that Neko was one of only 3 cats that had to have the procedure done twice.

I bumped George up to 5 tonight. He has been >400 all day and only dipped down to 375 yesterday. I’ll hold him steady for 6 cycles but I am worried about him. He’s not doing awesome. But if you saw his SS, he’s only been less than 300 3% of the time since July 9th.
 
If you were to post regularly in the Lantus/Lev/Biosimilars forum, we might be able to help you get to a better dose faster. Since brand new people post on this forum, I don't want to suggest anything that a new person might latch onto, without the safety mechanisms in place.
 
If you were to post regularly in the Lantus/Lev/Biosimilars forum, we might be able to help you get to a better dose faster. Since brand new people post on this forum, I don't want to suggest anything that a new person might latch onto, without the safety mechanisms in place.
Will do. I don’t fully understand the expectations with posting, other than I think <100 posts on a thread? And I am not clear on referencing older threads (is this good or bad?) I’ll start a new thread on the Lantus forum. Thank you Wendy! You have been so helpful!
 
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