Gandalf had a grand mal seizure last night

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((((Gandalf & Vicky)))))
That must have been extremely scary for both of you!!! I have no advice, so I figured I would post my hugs and well wishes on this post. I hope Gandalf's arthritis has calmed down this morning and he feels better soon. I'm sure you were a great comfort to him while you were holding him during the seizure.

:YMHUG: cat_pet_icon :YMHUG: cat_pet_icon :YMHUG: cat_pet_icon

Sending you both many hugs and comforting, healing vines.
 
I saw your post on Health and I just want to say that I am so proud of FDMB and the wide range of knowledge that this board has and the compassion that is always shown. I know how scary this must be for you....I can't even imagine going through that with Tigger.

Keeping you both in my prayers.
 
pamela and tigger said:
Haven't seen any updates. How is Gandalf doing?
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Thanks, Pamela. He was feeling better yesterday, more talkative and his BG was down. Sorry I haven't updated SS. He didn't do as well today because of his vet visit.

His vet visit today was somewhat inconclusive. His blood pressure was actually good, especially because we had to wait about a half hour in the room and it was noisy with quite a lot of voices in the halls. Average of 3 tests was 140, so that is normal. The level for treatment has actually come down and one of the articles on VIN I found said that treatment should be considered above 150. But he is fine.

We went ahead with bloodwork and are waiting on the dental I had scheduled for next week. His bloodwork was also fairly good, his Creatinine was a little higher than at U of I, but the main thing vet was looking for was liver values, which were all normal. Apparently if the liver has a problem it can release toxins in the blood stream which can cause seizures when they reach the brain.

She also asked if it was hypogylcemia, which no, of course not. She did tell me something interesting - that because their body uses so much energy during a seizure, if he has another I should check his BG shortly after to see if it goes down. Also, you may see the opposite affect because of the cortisol released following the seizure, so the BG could go way up quickly. You could have either effect or one followed by the other.

So since we have pretty much ruled out 2 most possible causes, that leaves the scariest, which is a brain tumor. There is a possibility his dilated pupils could be caused by a tumor, but more likely an effect from diabetes or cataracts. She examined them and did not seeing any bleeding, although the cataract obscured the retina some.

Of course to definitively diagnose a brain tumor would take a CT scan and at this point I can't afford that and the vet said it wouldn't change things really. She said if he has another or they start to cluster, she may speak with a neurologist in order to decide the probability of tumor and then treat with a steroid. We know that's not optimum with his diabetes, but it could ease the symptoms. Basically it would be something to try. It's weighing what would be best to preserve his quality of life. I know Jennifer dealt with that for Tucker, so I may PM her.

But hopefully that's down the road. I elected to not take any Valium home because I doubt I would be able to use it in time or that I would even be here next time. You have to give it during a seizure, they usually give it anally because you don't want to get bit.

I snuck a peek at the Plumb veterinary drug book she left in the room after looking up side effects of Doxycycline, none of which include seizures. I noticed that the book included Lantus in its section on insulins. I was surprised as I assumed it would only include approved meds. It also included the Rand comparison between Lantus, PZI and some type of Lente insulin I believe, which also surprised me because it was such a small study, 9 cats. The recommended starting dose echoes Rand with the above 360 and below 360 BG levels determining the basis. Not really understood how they can make that distinction, because we all know the cat's BG at a clinic could be higher from stress.

The vet said that is not even the newest copy. I'm only interested because I wonder what it would take to get Levemir/detemir in there. A study comparing it with the approved insulins, I suppose.
 
Very glad they didn't find any horrendous thing in the tests, but of course it leaves that one thing "out there", looming as an unknown. I hope and pray that "it" is not the reason and that he has no more seizures and it was a one time freak thing.

Whatever the future, you are doing the very best for him that anyone could and are guided by the right things: quality of life and your love for him.
:YMHUG: for you and cat_pet_icon for Gandalf
 
Vicky & Gandalf said:
pamela and tigger said:
Haven't seen any updates. How is Gandalf doing?
Click to expand...

Thanks, Pamela. He was feeling better yesterday, more talkative and his BG was down. Sorry I haven't updated SS. He didn't do as well today because of his vet visit.

His vet visit today was somewhat inconclusive. His blood pressure was actually good, especially because we had to wait about a half hour in the room and it was noisy with quite a lot of voices in the halls. Average of 3 tests was 140, so that is normal. The level for treatment has actually come down and one of the articles on VIN I found said that treatment should be considered above 150. But he is fine.
Click to expand...

Well, a bit of good news here.

Vicky & Gandalf said:
We went ahead with bloodwork and are waiting on the dental I had scheduled for next week. His bloodwork was also fairly good, his Creatinine was a little higher than at U of I, but the main thing vet was looking for was liver values, which were all normal. Apparently if the liver has a problem it can release toxins in the blood stream which can cause seizures when they reach the brain.
Click to expand...

Interesting, Tigger's liver values were so far over the charts for so long and no one mentioned this nor did I see anything like that (seizures) thank goodness.

BTW do they really think doing the dental is necessary at this point in time? How bad are his teeth? I know you have been doing the clindamyacin therapy treatments. I just wonder if putting him through a dental would be the best thing to do. But you know what is best for your Gandalf.

Vicky & Gandalf said:
She also asked if it was hypogylcemia, which no, of course not. She did tell me something interesting - that because their body uses so much energy during a seizure, if he has another I should check his BG shortly after to see if it goes down. Also, you may see the opposite affect because of the cortisol released following the seizure, so the BG could go way up quickly. You could have either effect or one followed by the other.
Click to expand...

Interesting. Never heard it explained just that way. I guess no one really checks the bg level so soon after the initial test after seeing a low number. They are too fixated on getting food into their kitty and then test later.

Vicky & Gandalf said:
So since we have pretty much ruled out 2 most possible causes, that leaves the scariest, which is a brain tumor. There is a possibility his dilated pupils could be caused by a tumor, but more likely an effect from diabetes or cataracts. She examined them and did not seeing any bleeding, although the cataract obscured the retina some.
Click to expand...

So Gandalf does have cataracts? I am not sure I knew that. Interesting thing is that cats don't usually present with cataracts like dogs do with diabetes. And who knows with these long term diabetics if there have ever been any definitive studies done on them at all in this area.

Vicky & Gandalf said:
Of course to definitively diagnose a brain tumor would take a CT scan and at this point I can't afford that and the vet said it wouldn't change things really. She said if he has another or they start to cluster, she may speak with a neurologist in order to decide the probability of tumor and then treat with a steroid. We know that's not optimum with his diabetes, but it could ease the symptoms. Basically it would be something to try. It's weighing what would be best to preserve his quality of life. I know Jennifer dealt with that for Tucker, so I may PM her.
Click to expand...

People have always said as long as I can remember here on FDMB, if the steroid helps their quality of life, it trumps the diabetes. Getting control of the BG numbers becomes secondary and you do the best you can do.

Vicky & Gandalf said:
But hopefully that's down the road. I elected to not take any Valium home because I doubt I would be able to use it in time or that I would even be here next time. You have to give it during a seizure, they usually give it anally because you don't want to get bit.
Click to expand...

What is amazing is that you may never have known he even had this seizure if you weren't home at the time. Hopefully, and maybe, this was a one time thing.

Vicky & Gandalf said:
I snuck a peek at the Plumb veterinary drug book she left in the room after looking up side effects of Doxycycline, none of which include seizures. I noticed that the book included Lantus in its section on insulins. I was surprised as I assumed it would only include approved meds. It also included the Rand comparison between Lantus, PZI and some type of Lente insulin I believe, which also surprised me because it was such a small study, 9 cats. The recommended starting dose echoes Rand with the above 360 and below 360 BG levels determining the basis. Not really understood how they can make that distinction, because we all know the cat's BG at a clinic could be higher from stress.

The vet said that is not even the newest copy. I'm only interested because I wonder what it would take to get Levemir/detemir in there. A study comparing it with the approved insulins, I suppose.
Click to expand...

I thought that although Lantus was not FDA-approved that didn't mean it wasn't available for Vets to prescribe just like Levemir (I see so much conflicting info whether or not it is). And that they talk about Humulin Lente there which means it is an old study of course.

And I agree with Sheila. You are guided by your love for him and will do what is best. I could not have said it better.
 
pamela and tigger said:
Interesting, Tigger's liver values were so far over the charts for so long and no one mentioned this nor did I see anything like that (seizures) thank goodness.

BTW do they really think doing the dental is necessary at this point in time? How bad are his teeth? I know you have been doing the clindamyacin therapy treatments. I just wonder if putting him through a dental would be the best thing to do. But you know what is best for your Gandalf.
Click to expand...

No, we are not doing a dental. We're giving this 30 days and evaluating then.

Vicky & Gandalf said:
She also asked if it was hypogylcemia, which no, of course not. She did tell me something interesting - that because their body uses so much energy during a seizure, if he has another I should check his BG shortly after to see if it goes down. Also, you may see the opposite affect because of the cortisol released following the seizure, so the BG could go way up quickly. You could have either effect or one followed by the other.
Click to expand...

pamela and tigger said:
Interesting. Never heard it explained just that way. I guess no one really checks the bg level so soon after the initial test after seeing a low number. They are too fixated on getting food into their kitty and then test later.
Click to expand...

That explanation only applies to grand mal seizures, not hypoglycemic seizures. Sorry, I should not have mentioned the hypo. From what I saw that night, a hypo seizure would probably look different, maybe less active with more shuddering and not so much tension. His entire body "seized up."

pamela and tigger said:
What is amazing is that you may never have known he even had this seizure if you weren't home at the time. Hopefully, and maybe, this was a one time thing.
Click to expand...

Probably it is not. I believe he had another seizure overnight Tuesday because Wed. AM his BG was over 400 and today he is not doing well. Extremely grumpy again, but he is eating on his own, although he vomited this AM before time for his pill and food. I decided to stop the Doxy, because he also vomited Tuesday morning right after I gave it. He has had it for 12 days, surely that's long enough, it was supposed to be 14 days and I can't stand for him to be puking and his gut be miserable on top of everything else. I gave him a pepcid after the puking then fed him a half hour later, which he kept down. He got up for food around 1PM, his usual time. But with a BG of 119 at +9.5 this AM, he is not responsive or active enough and his BG was a little over 300 by +11.5.

pamela and tigger said:
And I agree with Sheila. You are guided by your love for him and will do what is best. I could not have said it better.
Click to expand...

Thanks. Sorry I'm neglecting the board. I have had to work every day since Saturday and was supposed to be off today but now have to work tonight to replace a whiny assistant who put his back out. So things are kind of difficult right now. I know you all understand.
 
Vicky & Gandalf said:
Probably it is not. I believe he had another seizure overnight Tuesday because Wed. AM his BG was over 400 and today he is not doing well. Extremely grumpy again, but he is eating on his own, although he vomited this AM before time for his pill and food. I decided to stop the Doxy, because he also vomited Tuesday morning right after I gave it. He has had it for 12 days, surely that's long enough, it was supposed to be 14 days and I can't stand for him to be puking and his gut be miserable on top of everything else. I gave him a pepcid after the puking then fed him a half hour later, which he kept down. He got up for food around 1PM, his usual time. But with a BG of 119 at +9.5 this AM, he is not responsive or active enough and his BG was a little over 300 by +11.5.
Click to expand...

Oh no, I hope he snaps out of this soon and feels better. Probably a good idea to stop the Doxy in case it is contributing. I hope the rest of the day goes better for him and for you. Don't give the board a second thought. You have enough to worry about. ((hugs Vicky))
 
Vicky...

I wish you and Gandalf better. All our love and prayers for you both.

Don't worry about the board, hon.... Just take care of yourself and baby.

~Beth
 
We may have good news. Pamela came across a patient information sheet from Dr. Foster & Smith that lists seizures among things that could mean there is an allergic reaction to the Doxycycline he was on. Our 2 vets are not for sure and I haven't called the U of I about it either. The list seems like a catch all of possible reactions, it even includes coma! In an 18 yr old cat, how in the world can you determine that the drug caused this?

I had already taken him off of it after Wednesday because he had vomited Tuesday morning and then not eating well. He had 12 days worth of it when it was to be given for 14 days for a UTI. I am way less worried about a UTI than I am seizures.

So it's kind of a wait and see thing. He is miserable right now. He had his acupuncture this AM, so I hope that will help him feel better. It's also the full moon, though his Bg was good this AM.
 
Marcy & Klinger said:
That was a GREAT find Pamela!!! I hope it was just a side effect and he won't have any more seizures. Sending good thoughts your way. :thumbup
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ME TOO!
 
Vicky -just coming on the board now ...
I know how frightening seizures can be to watch. My 15 y.o. Rosie (calico) had one where her whole body twisted and
kicked-i chose not to do any testing, and she didn't have another for a long time aftre that, maybe a year.
well let's hope it's an allergic reaction (nice catch Pamela), and know that you and Gandalf are in my prayers tonight.
Sending lots of hugs.
 
Thanks again, everyone. Keeping fingers crossed here, I don't think he's had any more seizures. I thought he might have had a second one last week on Tuesday overnight because of the way he acted the next day, but I'm not real sure. He's doing OK, but not nearly as active as he was. He walks like he's sore and or stiff. His BGs have not been great, I also suspect a slight pancreatitis flare as he had some puking episodes last week and had stopped eating well. His Amylase was slightly elevated on his bloodwork and that value was extremely elevated when his first bout of p-tits was diagnosed by fPLI in '09. I began giving 2.5mg Pepcid Ac BID and he is eating better.

He also did something very unique the other night. Without going in to detail, I came home from work very upset and when I was in the bedroom changing clothes he came in, jumped on the bed via a box (he needs it to jump that high) and comforted me. He is very special like that, which is why I try to do everything I can to keep him comfortable. I was amazed that he did that, of course it made me cry. He actually stayed there until I went to bed. He used to visit me every night before I went to sleep and would fall asleep but no longer does that. It was very special and if I hadn't been upset I would have been concerned he was trying to tell me something else.
 
Vicky, I am sorry about whatever upset you - hope you are feeling better about it now. It really is something else when our pets comfort us. Dogs and cats can be so sensitive to our moods, not all of them, but the special ones seem to just be in tune with us.

Give Mr. Gandalf a kiss from me for being such a sensitive guy!
 
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