Frustration from feeling like there is no movement

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Douglas_my ginger cat

Douglas_my ginger cat

Member Since 2020
Hi all!

I am feeling a little frustrated as Douglas has been on mainly pinks/mid-yellows since moving him to a 0.5IU up to 1.25IU (which is what I am on now). Even though I have increased his insulin slowly over the course of nearly 3 weeks, there does not seem to be any change in his blood glucose levels. WHY?! :(

The only thing I can think of is that could impact this is I feed him nearly double the recommended feeding amount as he is still hungry, could this have an impact on his levels? Moving him to this food initially reduced his levels but doesn't seem to do anything now.

Finally, I am thinking of looking to introduce a zero carb food (currently on Wild Freedom, his carb content is on average 2.6%), is this recommended or should there be 'some' carb content? Also, should carrageenan be totally avoided for cats?

Sorry for all the questions! This turned out as more of a brain dump.
 
Hi Anna,

I can feel your frustration from here. :bighug:

Douglas_my ginger cat said:
Also, should carrageenan be totally avoided for cats?
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Absolutely. It's a pro-inflammatory agent. Big no-no.

Douglas_my ginger cat said:
Finally, I am thinking of looking to introduce a zero carb food (currently on Wild Freedom, his carb content is on average 2.6%), is this recommended or should there be 'some' carb content?
Click to expand...
Depends on the cat. Some kitties seem to have a 'preferred range' of carbs where their BG levels do better. Counterintuitively, some cats don't do so well on ultra-low carb foods but do great on, say, 6-7% carbs. Trial and error is the only way to determine what works for a given cat.

Douglas_my ginger cat said:
The only thing I can think of is that could impact this is I feed him nearly double the recommended feeding amount as he is still hungry, could this have an impact on his levels? Moving him to this food initially reduced his levels but doesn't seem to do anything now.
Click to expand...
Possible, but BG levels are also raised by breakdown of the body's glycogen stores plus glucose synthesised in the liver. Given Douglas is in diabetic numbers at the moment, he won't be fully utilising the grub he eats.

Is Douglas underweight or losing weight?

Douglas_my ginger cat said:
Even though I have increased his insulin slowly over the course of nearly 3 weeks, there does not seem to be any change in his blood glucose levels. WHY?!
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Is there any chance he might have any infections or any inflammation (e.g. teeth/gums, UTI)? His numbers were better on a lower dose a short while back, so after checking for any changes to carb load, inflammation and infection are the next usual suspects to look at.


Mogs
.
 
Last edited:
Thanks @Critter Mom

Critter Mom said:
Is Douglas underweight or losing weight?
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I can feel that he is losing weight, but I can weigh him tonight when I get home.

Critter Mom said:
Is there any chance he might have any infections or any inflammation (e.g. teeth/gums, UTI)? His numbers were better on a lower dose a short while back, so after checking for any changes to carb load, inflammation and infection are the next usual suspects to look at.
Click to expand...
He possibly could have, his poop on a few occasions have been a paler colour. He had a UTI when he was initially diagnosed in July. Could this only be determined by a visit to the vet?
 
I removed carrageenan from Howie’s diet (moved him Dr. Elseys CleanProtein wet food-turkey pate) and once he settled into that, he put on more weight, diarrhea stopped, and he became more like his old self. I still feed him about 450 cal which is double what he should have, but it keeps his ketones at bay and he definitely needed to put some weight on. He is a higher dose kittie with IAA but I started to finally see blues with all this (before I switched him to Levemir.) So I 100% Recommend getting food without carrageenan and guar gum.
 
Howiesmom said:
I removed carrageenan from Howie’s diet (moved him Dr. Elseys CleanProtein wet food-turkey pate) and once he settled into that, he put on more weight, diarrhea stopped, and he became more like his old self. I still feed him about 450 cal which is double what he should have, but it keeps his ketones at bay and he definitely needed to put some weight on. He is a higher dose kittie with IAA but I started to finally see blues with all this (before I switched him to Levemir.) So I 100% Recommend getting food without carrageenan and guar gum.
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Hi @Howiesmom, thank you for this. He isn't eating food containing carrageenan but I was looking to change him to Lily's Kitchen which is 0% carb but saw it contained carrageenan so had a look into it. I will DEFINITELY not get him this and look at alternatives. Whilst the food he is currently on is ok, I have found bits of bone and hard meats in it so want to find something more natural. It's not Douglas who is fussy, its me! :woot:
 
Douglas_my ginger cat said:
Hi @Howiesmom, thank you for this. He isn't eating food containing carrageenan but I was looking to change him to Lily's Kitchen which is 0% carb but saw it contained carrageenan so had a look into it. I will DEFINITELY not get him this and look at alternatives. Whilst the food he is currently on is ok, I have found bits of bone and hard meats in it so want to find something more natural. It's not Douglas who is fussy, its me! :woot:
Click to expand...

I’d avoid Lily’s too.
Have you looked at Natures Menu and Country Hunter? Both good quality. Available from the Natures Menu website, Fetch, and some supermarkets and pet food stores. Generally positive reviews.
 
Hi Anna,

Douglas_my ginger cat said:
his poop on a few occasions have been a paler colour. He had a UTI when he was initially diagnosed in July. Could this only be determined by a visit to the vet?
Click to expand...
Paler coloured stools may hint at something up in the digestive system (pancreas, liver, gallbladder). Maybe put a call in to your vet to see whether they'd recommend blood work/stool analysis? If you do take Douglas to the vets, maybe take as 'clean' a free-catch sample as you can manage so the vet could check for UTIs (or vet may recommend cystocentesis). Also ask about checking his teeth/gums. Gingivitis can affect numbers.

Stool Colours

If you do a home urine test it might pick up if there is blood in the urine, but the leukocyte test is unreliable.

I can feel that he is losing weight, but I can weigh him tonight when I get home.
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Another reason not to restrict calories. With Caninsulin, as you know, he needs a substantial feed before giving insulin, but you can give him a few smaller feeds between doses - preferably in the first half of the cycle while the dose is still effective. At the limit, the only time when food should not be available is during the two-hour fast before taking a preshot reading.


Mogs
.
 
Critter Mom said:
Hi Anna,


Paler coloured stools may hint at something up in the digestive system (pancreas, liver, gallbladder). Maybe put a call in to your vet to see whether they'd recommend blood work/stool analysis? If you do take Douglas to the vets, maybe take as 'clean' a free-catch sample as you can manage so the vet could check for UTIs (or vet may recommend cystocentesis). Also ask about checking his teeth/gums. Gingivitis can affect numbers.

Stool Colours

If you do a home urine test it might pick up if there is blood in the urine, but the leukocyte test is unreliable.


Another reason not to restrict calories. With Caninsulin, as you know, he needs a substantial feed before giving insulin, but you can give him a few smaller feeds between doses - preferably in the first half of the cycle while the dose is still effective. At the limit, the only time when food should not be available is during the two-hour fast before taking a preshot reading.


Mogs
.
Click to expand...
Thanks Mogs. You are right, I think a call to the vet tomorrow is needed.

So I understand to rule out any possible infections or inflammation before looking at the insulin itself?
 
I think it's worth chatting to the vet about the insulin too, Anna. Might be an idea to post a thread to ask for input from members who've switched from Caninsulin/Vetsulin to Prozinc to see what their experiences have been like. Could provide good fodder for discussions with your vet.

I was actually looking at a spreadsheet for a kitty who made such a switch and he got a really good result, but I don't know how common such a marked difference might be seen (ECID). Here's the link for you to have a look:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...w8P7mrCpKDFuDXECcmZK-4RRZA/edit#gid=361360320

(@Deb & Wink, @Panic: - could you possibly give Anna some views on this type of switch when you're around, please?)


Mogs
.
 
One housekeeping matter first please. On 10/19/20,PM cycle, your remarks on the SS indicate you did not give a PM insulin shot, yet you have a dose in the Units column. Would you please correct that? Thanks.

Some cats do just fine on Caninsulin (aka Vetsulin in the US). Often, it has a shorter duration and a longer lasting insulin like Prozinc (or lantus) can be helpful.

You might want to read the "Sticky" posts in the ISG forums for both insulins. Lots of information there to help you with a decision to switch insulins - or not.

Douglas actually looked better on the 1.5U of insulin. You are using a human meter, the Gluco Navi, so the reduction point is 90 mg/dL (5 mmol/L) I think. Not positive on that though.

Dose changes of 0.25U is what we recommend doing. But you dropped Douglas from 1.5U to 1U. Not sure why. Why?
 
Hi @Deb & Wink

Deb & Wink said:
One housekeeping matter first please. On 10/19/20,PM cycle, your remarks on the SS indicate you did not give a PM insulin shot, yet you have a dose in the Units column. Would you please correct that? Thanks.
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Thanks for letting me know, I think it was more to do with the terminology as it was the blood test that I was unable to do (not the insulin shot). This is now updated.

Deb & Wink said:
You might want to read the "Sticky" posts in the ISG forums for both insulins. Lots of information there to help you with a decision to switch insulins - or not.
Click to expand...
Will check these out, thanks. Sometimes I forget there is already so much information available

Deb & Wink said:
Dose changes of 0.25U is what we recommend doing. But you dropped Douglas from 1.5U to 1U. Not sure why. Why?
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I think between 07/09/2020 and 25/09/2020 I was struggling to give Douglas two shots a day so there was a lot of jumping between shot amounts especially as we were originally at 2.75. 0.5IU seemed to be the amount that allowed me to administer insulin twice a day safely. As I work during the week, blood tests during the day are restricted to weekends so wanted to avoid any potential hypos. I have now been increasing by 0.25 but still no change to his BG levels.
 
Hercule's mum said:
sorry for highkacking your thread Douglas' mum.... but can I ask @Diana&Tom what is the carb content of the blink food? Have you tried their service?
I always like some freebies :oops: but I've learned to ask questions....:woot:
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https://fetch.co.uk/blink-chicken-selection-multipack-8-x-85g-457069011

I don’t know about carb content but the link above has more info, or try the Blink website.
I tried the eight-pouch for £1 trial offer earlier this year but my cat wasn’t overly impressed. It does look nicer than some of the other brands though.
 
Still vaguely within topic... My cat saw a new vet this week who recommended the following foods, if any UKers reading are interested:

Thrive
Natures Menu
Meowing Heads
Little Big Paws
Forthglade
The Cheshire Cat’s Garden
Canagan
Lily’s Kitchen (but I wouldn’t personally go there)
Almo Nature (check label, many are complementary)
Applaws (as above)
Encore (as above)
 
Diana&Tom said:
Still vaguely within topic... My cat saw a new vet this week who recommended the following foods, if any UKers reading are interested:
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Thank you for sharing this list. This weekend I am actually going through a few natural cat food's to see which one I could move Douglas on. Happy to share this once I am done, will probably do most/if not all the foods listed by your vet.

Please feel free to hijack the thread :) it's a little of a mismash of topics anyway. Would love to hear tales of a good vet visit :bookworm:

Hercule's mum said:
It is indeed so frustrating! if it is any confort, at least he is not super bouncy!
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Gonna have take this positive for now. My curve today using the AlphaTrak2 is showing Douglas on reds :( I have an appointment with the vet on Friday so hopefully we can rule out any possibly infections or inflammations. Fingers crossed for a change in insulin to Prozinc, if so!
 
Douglas_my ginger cat said:
Thank you for sharing this list. This weekend I am actually going through a few natural cat food's to see which one I could move Douglas on. Happy to share this once I am done, will probably do most/if not all the foods listed by your vet.

Please feel free to hijack the thread :) it's a little of a mismash of topics anyway. Would love to hear tales of a good vet visit :bookworm:


Gonna have take this positive for now. My curve today using the AlphaTrak2 is showing Douglas on reds :( I have an appointment with the vet on Friday so hopefully we can rule out any possibly infections or inflammations. Fingers crossed for a change in insulin to Prozinc, if so!
Click to expand...

Yes do let us know which foods you decide to try, Anna. Personal recommendations are always good although needless to say ECID in their tastes...
Be aware that some “natural” foods are just that, ie no additions of any kind which means they may not contain all the necessary nutrients that a complete food does. Almo, Applaws and Encore are mostly in this category but I do add some of these to my Saff’s other food (Natures Menu) just for a bit of variety and moisture (she very rarely drinks water). Of the above list, I can recommend Cheshire Cat food although it is pricey - nice for a change/treat rather than every day maybe.

Definitely good idea to have a vet look at Douglas. I see a few yellows but all those reds today aren’t good. And yes, try to get Prozinc if you can, it’s the next logical one to try.
 
Diana&Tom said:
Well, briefly - new vet was excellent.
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@Diana&Tom - So glad you found a good one, do tell how you found it!


Douglas_my ginger cat said:
showing Douglas on reds :(
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I never used canninsulin, so I am not giving dose advice. Switching to prozinc seems like a good idea, but being a curious one I peeked at Douglas' SS, and he is in a much lower dose than when he was in the blues - maybe he needs a dose increase to move him out of the reds?

I see the same frustrating thing with hercs, he has a bright green in a higher dose, we reduce it, and then takes forever to see good results again.... It must be that they build some small reserve on the higher doses? both caninsulin are not depot insulins, but there definetely seems to be some carryover effect. I have been trying very small dosage changes lately to see if we can find the sweet spot :rolleyes:
 
Hey, so I have done some research and I think I am going to try the Applaws pate and also Thrive.

If anyone is interested, here is my spreadsheet https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1uYxFiJAV-1Pg7xmGSEcL80DO7twptsozbTnFvIJtpes/edit?usp=sharing
I took prices from Bitiba, as this is usually where I shop.

Hercule's mum said:
but being a curious one I peeked at Douglas' SS, and he is in a much lower dose than when he was in the blues - maybe he needs a dose increase to move him out of the reds?
Click to expand...
He seemed to be doing ok on 2.5IU, but not ideal numbers and then as soon as I upped to 2.75IU it went haywire. It wasn't until I got to 0.5IU that I was able to administer twice daily. Since then, any increases doesn't seem to do anything :(
 
yes, food will always rise BG. It is all about balancing food and insulin. Is he underweight? Do you know if he is gaining or loosing weight?
If he needs to gain weight or is not gaining despite the amount of food you are giving, then I think the correct things is to up insulin and not reduce food, but perhaps some with more experience will correct me....
 
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