Freya's ProZinc Saga

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I'm so sorry you're having trouble finding the foods you want! I think finding foods that our kitties like, we like, and we can afford are some of the hardest parts of figuring this all out. Hopefully HKC will get more in stock soon.

As far as dosing, the pre-shot numbers are important, but I agree with Kris that the mid-cycle numbers are more helpful in determining dose. If you try to chase the pre-shot around most of the time you either end up with a flat cycle, or you end up with increasingly erratic pre-shot numbers.

The sticky on advanced dosing for prozinc says that sliding scales should only be used if consistent dosing has been shown to be either dangerous or ineffective after a fair period of time using the cycles of slow, methodical increases.

As far as shooting on the 241 -- from the stall, you knew Freya was rising which made the regular dose safe. The other option would have been to just go ahead and give the dose at the 241 since it's still well above your No Shot number, and then just monitor. You are getting consistent mid-cycle tests already, so if Freya did start sliding down too quickly, you would see it and be there to steer the cycle (give a little extra food) to keep the numbers safe.
 
Yep, we generally don't recommend a sliding scale until you've tried the slow, steady increases at first. While we sometimes suggest lowering the dose based on lower than average preshots, that's just for safety's sake. Using a sliding scale every day can be done, but some kitties don't react well to it at all..so we always recommend consistency first. :)
 
Djamila said:
I'm so sorry you're having trouble finding the foods you want! I think finding foods that our kitties like, we like, and we can afford are some of the hardest parts of figuring this all out. Hopefully HKC will get more in stock soon.

As far as dosing, the pre-shot numbers are important, but I agree with Kris that the mid-cycle numbers are more helpful in determining dose. If you try to chase the pre-shot around most of the time you either end up with a flat cycle, or you end up with increasingly erratic pre-shot numbers.

The sticky on advanced dosing for prozinc says that sliding scales should only be used if consistent dosing has been shown to be either dangerous or ineffective after a fair period of time using the cycles of slow, methodical increases.

As far as shooting on the 241 -- from the stall, you knew Freya was rising which made the regular dose safe. The other option would have been to just go ahead and give the dose at the 241 since it's still well above your No Shot number, and then just monitor. You are getting consistent mid-cycle tests already, so if Freya did start sliding down too quickly, you would see it and be there to steer the cycle (give a little extra food) to keep the numbers safe.
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Rachel said:
Yep, we generally don't recommend a sliding scale until you've tried the slow, steady increases at first. While we sometimes suggest lowering the dose based on lower than average preshots, that's just for safety's sake. Using a sliding scale every day can be done, but some kitties don't react well to it at all..so we always recommend consistency first. :)
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Thanks, that's good to know. I've still got Caninsulin in my head, I guess. It hit her so hard and fast that I felt I had to be cautious about different pre-shot numbers, even if there wasn't a huge difference. The drops were so dramatic on it. ProZinc is easier on her though, so I'll try to remember that.

She was 256 (14.2) now around +4. These 200-250+ mid-cycle tests are starting to bother me. The polyuria has been worse again, too.

Kris & Teasel said:
Based on the blues you've had recently I'd try 2.5 u if you can monitor. I find that focusing on how low a dose has taken a kitty can be the deciding factor even though you have to give a nod to the PS. You could probably use 200 as your NS given the amount of data you have. That can be lowered over time too.
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Maybe I'll try that tomorrow.
 
Can you grab a +6 today? A couple of days ago, it looks like Frey had a decent drop between +4 and +6.
 
Just housework and errands today, so I should be able to get something around +6, yeah. I have a feeling she'll be a mid-to-high blue by then. It just seems that the yellows are encroaching on what had been blue territory, and pushing the blues into what might've been greens or nicer blues.

She was fixating on her feeder today, so I found her favourite "cat TV" video on YouTube:

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She watched that for a while, then went to stalk her feeder again. I broke out her favourite toy to see if she'd chase it. Same concept as a fishing pole toy, except, uh... it's a flimsy bullwhip my mother-in-law got at her charity shop. :confused: This cat is obsessed with it. She chased it all around and jumped up and down furniture until she wore herself out. It's encouraging to see her able to play that hard again. When she was sicker, her eyes would get all big when she'd see her toys, and she'd start to move toward them, but sit down after a few steps. So clearly she's gained some strength and life back since then. :cat:
 
Kitty TV looks awesome! I'll have to go look for that! It's so good to hear that Freya is feeling better and getting strength back!
 
Djamila said:
Kitty TV looks awesome! I'll have to go look for that! It's so good to hear that Freya is feeling better and getting strength back!
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Thanks! And if you search for "cat TV" or something similar, it'll come up with a bunch of videos of birds, squirrels, fish and such. She likes the bird ones that are recorded from a distance. I played it through the TV via my phone and that kept her occupied for a little bit.

I got a little carried away with cleaning, but I did take her +6. It was 187 (10.4), which is about what I was expecting. I've tried explaining to her that she needs to be less sweet. :rolleyes:
 
I'm going to look up some CatTV for Maury :cat:. And yes I understand about how nice it is to see them play again! Maury still has a ways to go to get back to his real hard playing self but he was kind of where Freya was. Eyes got excited to see toy but took a few steps and had to rest :(
 
That red tonight needs to get gone! Ugh.

Yong said:
I'm going to look up some CatTV for Maury :cat:. And yes I understand about how nice it is to see them play again! Maury still has a ways to go to get back to his real hard playing self but he was kind of where Freya was. Eyes got excited to see toy but took a few steps and had to rest :(
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Poor Maury. It's hard to see them like that. Maybe he'll like some TV at least, hahah.
 
Icky red! I agree with Kris' comment earlier that you could probably up the dose to 2.5u. Make sure it's a cycle you can monitor, of course, but it looks like Freya could use a bit more.
 
We did 2.5u this morning. This is a good day for it since I'll be around to keep an eye on her all day and will be sure to test a few times around nadir, at least. I can also sleep on the couch tonight until she's past nadir and set alarms to check on her.

I have a feeling this may be a good dose for her, especially now that we have the automatic feeder and can leave some carby stuff out if we're worried about leaving her alone. I feel like I've been stuck at home a lot of times I'd have otherwise gone out just because I'm paranoid. This was really the last thing my anxiety disorder needed right now. :blackeye: One day recently, I got an intrusive thought that I'd given her way too much insulin. Couldn't get it out of my head and kept going back to measure out the doses I thought I might have given, and probably did that about fifty times. It's like I had two memories: one of it being the correct dose and one of it not, and both seemed as real. Obviously it was the correct one in the end, but I was shaking and spent hours upset and ruminating on it, unable to do or think about anything else. :banghead: It's an anxiety/OCD thing, and I feel like her diabetes is really screwing with that and bringing me out of "remission" so to speak. The bad part is I can't even tell myself I'm being irrational like usual, because it's not like it's that uncommon for FD cats to go hypo, and then it's like... what if I'm not there? Frustrating! But this is why I'm really hoping the feeder continues to work reliably. It might help to put the brakes on those fixations enough that I don't feel as obligated to stay home whenever I could go out.
 
Blair & Freya said:
We did 2.5u this morning. This is a good day for it since I'll be around to keep an eye on her all day and will be sure to test a few times around nadir, at least. I can also sleep on the couch tonight until she's past nadir and set alarms to check on her.

I have a feeling this may be a good dose for her, especially now that we have the automatic feeder and can leave some carby stuff out if we're worried about leaving her alone. I feel like I've been stuck at home a lot of times I'd have otherwise gone out just because I'm paranoid. This was really the last thing my anxiety disorder needed right now. :blackeye: One day recently, I got an intrusive thought that I'd given her way too much insulin. Couldn't get it out of my head and kept going back to measure out the doses I thought I might have given, and probably did that about fifty times. It's like I had two memories: one of it being the correct dose and one of it not, and both seemed as real. Obviously it was the correct one in the end, but I was shaking and spent hours upset and ruminating on it, unable to do or think about anything else. :banghead: It's an anxiety/OCD thing, and I feel like her diabetes is really screwing with that and bringing me out of "remission" so to speak. The bad part is I can't even tell myself I'm being irrational like usual, because it's not like it's that uncommon for FD cats to go hypo, and then it's like... what if I'm not there? Frustrating! But this is why I'm really hoping the feeder continues to work reliably. It might help to put the brakes on those fixations enough that I don't feel as obligated to stay home whenever I could go out.
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Be gentle with yourself, Blair. This is a stressful condition to treat and there are quite a few people on the forums here whose anxiety issues get ramped up high because of it. I can tell you have a lot of awareness of what it does to your thinking and that's a big plus. I'm sure you know all the CBT tools to deal with "flares". :):bighug:
 
Remember, Blair, that this IS a stressful thing. I won't tell you about the meltdowns I've had, but trust me when I say that I get where you're coming from.

If you're ever feeling super anxious about it, you can always come here and vent. Sometimes it might just help to have some others who get it to talk it through. :bighug:
 
Kris and Rachel are right -- this whole thing can certainly raise our stress levels! I don't know if this is helpful at all, but even if you did give an incorrect dose, you have control over what happens next. First, you would know your kitty was safe by taking a BG test and seeing the numbers. Being able to test gives you so much power over all of this. And even if the numbers went low, you have all of the information you need to manage that, and you have a large community of people here to help you.

Right now, Freya is giving you very predictable numbers, and insulin responses. You really can safely leave the house.

It might even help to leave Freya at home, go do something fun, and come back to see that she's just fine. As you do that a few times your confidence in all of this will grow.

You're doing great (and I'm still in awe of your spreadsheet!)!
 
Kris & Teasel said:
Be gentle with yourself, Blair. This is a stressful condition to treat and there are quite a few people on the forums here whose anxiety issues get ramped up high because of it. I can tell you have a lot of awareness of what it does to your thinking and that's a big plus. I'm sure you know all the CBT tools to deal with "flares". :):bighug:
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Rachel said:
Remember, Blair, that this IS a stressful thing. I won't tell you about the meltdowns I've had, but trust me when I say that I get where you're coming from.

If you're ever feeling super anxious about it, you can always come here and vent. Sometimes it might just help to have some others who get it to talk it through. :bighug:
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Thanks! Yeah, I have a lot of self-awareness, which helps in certain situations but not in all of them. I guess that's the nature of problems that don't like to listen to logic. And I'm sure it does a number on a lot of people prone to these issues. I used to not talk about it when I was younger, but for the past several years, I don't care anymore. I figure a big reason people feel so weird and isolated is this stuff doesn't get discussed so openly.

Djamila said:
Kris and Rachel are right -- this whole thing can certainly raise our stress levels! I don't know if this is helpful at all, but even if you did give an incorrect dose, you have control over what happens next. First, you would know your kitty was safe by taking a BG test and seeing the numbers. Being able to test gives you so much power over all of this. And even if the numbers went low, you have all of the information you need to manage that, and you have a large community of people here to help you.

Right now, Freya is giving you very predictable numbers, and insulin responses. You really can safely leave the house.

It might even help to leave Freya at home, go do something fun, and come back to see that she's just fine. As you do that a few times your confidence in all of this will grow.

You're doing great (and I'm still in awe of your spreadsheet!)!
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I run errands and do recreational things now and then, but a lot of the time end up wondering how she's doing or staying home when I don't have to be out. We have a pet webcam though from before her diagnosis, and we can talk to her through it and see if she comes running. It was handy the other night when we went for drinks and to see Guardians of the Galaxy. Woke her up from a nice nap, hahah.

I think I'm still acclimating to the idea that ProZinc is nicer to her. It does seem pretty predictable. Caninsulin wasn't. It was like... okay, is it going to make sense, or is she going to rapidly drop by over 100 points and then launch into orbit two hours later? :eek: I'm slowly getting used to the difference. Really wish she'd been able to use ProZinc from the beginning! I blame Caninsulin for my pre-shot anxiety, hahah. But I understand they're two different insulins and I think I'm starting to internalise that knowledge and that just because Caninsulin did one thing, that doesn't mean ProZinc will.

Edit: Feel free to copy the spreadsheet if you want! I had to add that food column just because food is A Big Thing for her, but it could probably be modified to suit whatever needs.
 
I so so so much agree with you that if we were all more open who we are there would be less isolation, and more connection, acceptance, and love. I'm glad that this is a safe enough place that you can share how you're really feeling about it. You are definitely not alone!

I'm just starting to realize the differences with caninsulin and prozinc, too. Since they are both called in-and-out insulins, I thought they were pretty much the same, but the more I read, and study spreadsheets on here, the more I realize they are really quite different. Not just in duration, but also in reactions, predictability, and dosing. We are all here learning together! If Sam doesn't hurry up and get his act together, I might just take you up on copying your spreadsheet!
 
Another flat day so far.

I got impatient and ordered her some more MAC's food to see if that helps break this high/flat thing. I ended up having to get some gigantic cans since everything else was sold out, but I couldn't wait to see when they get more in stock. Our entire fridge/freezer fits underneath the kitchen counter, but I'll worry about how the hell to freeze the excess of 800g cans once they get here, hahah. She's our only cat, so that's a ton of food!
 
She had a better AM cycle today on the 2.5u, and tonight there was another big bad red pre-shot. :( At least her food will get here tomorrow. It's just disheartening to see these reds coming back lately. But she did have some blues today, and a much better pre-shot. Still... ugh.
 
Djamila said:
Yucky red. That was a really nice run of blues during the day though!
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Yeah, I'm sure she got some blues overnight too, judging by the +4... and by the high pink pre-shot this morning. o_O I'm glad she came down from the red last night. That was her lowest PM +4 in days.

We're still waiting on this afternoon's MAC's delivery, and she only had 100g of her last can left, so I saved that for her snack times to keep her lower mid-day. She had to have Whiskas for breakfast, but I don't think it'll affect her too badly in comparison. (Whiskas isn't terrible on her BG; I just don't want her relying on it as a primary food.) She might end up having a higher bounce today anyway. I'm actually surprised last night wasn't flat! 2.5u looks like it could be promising if this bouncing levels out.
 
Djamila said:
Lol...a familiar scene around here! Freya is so beautiful and panther like!
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Rachel said:
Oh my! That's a pretty familiar scene here too...Freya really is beautiful!!!!
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Thanks! She's looking much better than she was not so long ago. She really looked terrible when she was severely unregulated, but she's getting all shiny again now. I think she's gained a little weight since increasing her portions, too. She certainly hasn't lost any.

She surprised me with a PMPS of 209 (11.6). Since this was just a smidge above her suggested no-shot of 200, I stalled and she ended up at 220 for her shot. I'm hoping she stays within a decent range because I've got places to go tomorrow and could really use the sleep tonight. I have a feeling I'll be getting up to test anyway. Last night she dropped over 200 points by +4, but other nights she's barely budged. Yeesh. :nailbiting:
 
How's Freya doing with her BFF (the timed feeder)? ;) It's great to see that overall, her pre-shot numbers are starting to come down a bit! I think she might be due for a dose increase sometime soon. How do you feel about that? Is there a cycle or two this weekend that you can monitor?
 
Djamila said:
How's Freya doing with her BFF (the timed feeder)? ;) It's great to see that overall, her pre-shot numbers are starting to come down a bit! I think she might be due for a dose increase sometime soon. How do you feel about that? Is there a cycle or two this weekend that you can monitor?
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She's still sitting/lying on her food mat sometimes, but not as much as she was.

I haven't been around as much this weekend, but I've tried to test her as often as I could. I am getting discouraged with these numbers. I think she's gained a bit of weight; do you think she may need more insulin as a result? I'm just getting worried about her being at these numbers for such stretches of time without much respite. I imagine she was getting a couple hours of blues for some of those PM cycles, but that's just not enough. And the pinks and reds are coming back. This is more red than she's had in quite a while. :(
 
Blair & Freya said:
She's still sitting/lying on her food mat sometimes, but not as much as she was.

I haven't been around as much this weekend, but I've tried to test her as often as I could. I am getting discouraged with these numbers. I think she's gained a bit of weight; do you think she may need more insulin as a result? I'm just getting worried about her being at these numbers for such stretches of time without much respite. I imagine she was getting a couple hours of blues for some of those PM cycles, but that's just not enough. And the pinks and reds are coming back. This is more red than she's had in quite a while. :(
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She might need a little boost to 2.75 u. Some kitties seem to get "dose complacent" after a while on a certain dose and need a little nudge to start responding better.
 
I'll try that today and see how she does. It just seems odd since she was doing better on 2.5 and even 2.25 before, and now it's been all mostly-flat highs. o_O I hope it's just her weight gain or some other normal reason and not some weird underlying thing.

Edit: Would there be a reason her PMPS has been alternating so erratically between yellow, pink, and red? She's never done that before, and even when bouncing previously, it's never been like that. Is that typical? She's been getting some of her lowest pre-shots in those yellows, but then the pinks and high reds are like :eek:
 
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Might be mild glucose toxicity so we'll see if the ~2.75U pushes her through today. A few of the days where she hit blues, look like bouncing, with the most recent being 10 May. BUT she started another bounce cycle last night, higher and flatter. Can you get a +5 and +7 today? I'm curious about something :p
 
It was pretty flat, but there was enough movement to look like her nadir is closer to +6 than it is to +4. Does your schedule allow you to get mid-cycles a little later sometimes to try to catch those? And fingers crossed that a few cycles on this increase will start to show something a little better!
 
Djamila said:
It was pretty flat, but there was enough movement to look like her nadir is closer to +6 than it is to +4. Does your schedule allow you to get mid-cycles a little later sometimes to try to catch those? And fingers crossed that a few cycles on this increase will start to show something a little better!
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I can get those numbers sometimes, yes. And her ProZinc nadir has always seemed to be around +5 or +6.

She was 232 (12.9) just now for her PMPS. I'm assuming I should shoot 2.75u again...? I'm still unfamiliar with this.
 
I'm hoping maybe the dose increase is starting to snap her out of it, but we know what happens when we get too hopeful...

I can be up tonight to check on her though if she's not stupidly high mid-cycle. And the reason I often test her at +4 is to decide if I should leave her some more carbs in her feeder in the event that I have to go out, since I know she continues to drop for an hour or two after. Needless to say, that hasn't been a concern of late!

And @Yong, I just checked out Maury's sheet now that I'm at the laptop again. What was he doing today?! I think he and Freya are playing games.
 
She's very expressive and cracks me up sometimes.

Today started out with a gross red. She didn't even get that low for that long last night, yet still a huge bounce?! There's more movement so far today than there was during yesterday's AM cycle, but it still looks like it'll be a disappointing cycle of yellows. I really don't know what to do about her being almost all yellow almost all the time for several days. All of a sudden she's doing worse now than she was on Caninsulin, and that wasn't even very good. Her pre-shots are lower, but it's like there's barely anything happening in between. I don't think it's food related either, because if you look at her +4 meals, she continues to drop after having eaten the same stuff she gets for her pre-shot meals. Confusing.
 
Ugh... PMPS 257, and a +4 of... 254. :( This is getting worrisome. She's barely been below 250 all day.

Edit: I'm wondering if maybe she's started to react to something in the duck/turkey/chicken variety of MAC's. Her BG continued to rise at +5, an hour after her feeding, which it doesn't do with the other foods. I may experiment to figure out if this is contributing. She hadn't had it at her +4 before, but she did tonight. I'll feed her something different in the morning with the duck/turkey/chicken at +4 and see what that does.
 
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