? Fred 5/12/15 Yesterday's curve. Your thoughts?

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Jamye and Fred

Member Since 2015
SCROLL TO BOTTOM FOR TODAY'S QUESTION.
Fred and I are currently doing SLGS but considering TR. I am in the process of doing a 24 hour curve, started today. Your thoughts?
 
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First thing to do is read over all the Lantus sticky posts so you really understand how to use it and how the protocols differ.
 
Lots of thoughts! First, you don't need to do a 24 hr curve - that sounds like a whole lotta no sleeping to me! You have the choice with SLGS:
After 1 week at a given dose perform a 12 hour curve, testing every 2 hours OR perform an 18 hour curve, testing every 3 hours
Note
: Random spot checks are often helpful to "fill in the blanks" on kitty's spreadsheet.

  • If nadirs are more than 150 mg/dl (8.3 mmol/L), increase the dose by 0.25 unit
  • If nadirs are between 90 (5 mmol/L) and 149 mg/dl (8.2 mmol/L), maintain the same dose
  • If nadirs are below 90 mg/dl (5mmol/L), decrease the dose by 0.25 unit
  • As your cat's blood glucose begins to fall mostly in the desired range [lowest point of the curve approaching 100 mg/dl (5.5 mmol/L) and pre-shot value around or below 300 mg/dl (16.6 mmol/L)], do lengthen the waiting time between dose increases. If you decide to change another factor (e.g., diet or other medications), don't increase the insulin dose until the other change is complete (but do decrease the dose if your cat's glucose numbers consistently fall below 90 mg/dl (5.0 mmol/L) as a result of the change). Don't be tempted to rush the process along by increasing the dose more quickly or in larger increments-- no matter how high your cat's blood glucose is! Rushing towards regulation will cost you time in the long run, because you may shoot past the right dose.
Some of us wrote a "welcome to new members" post a little while ago - I'll post it for you below and perhaps it will be helpful to you:

Welcome to Lantus and Lev land – the best place you probably never wanted to be! If you are like most of us, if this is your first few weeks of trying to wrap your head around the fact that your kitty has diabetes, you’ve no doubt been terrified, in tears, in a state of shock, and completely overwhelmed. Don’t worry. It gets easier. It really does.

None of us here are veterinary professionals but many of us have been working with our cat’s diabetes for a long time. Even those of us who have been here for a short time are here to help. This is a wonderfully supportive community.

There are a few first steps. We firmly believe that home testing is the best way to keep your cat safe. We keep a record of our cat’s blood glucose (BG) data on a spreadsheet (SS) which you can create using these instructions: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/...te-a-ss-and-link-it-in-your-signature.130337/. If you’ve not mastered home testing, we’re happy to offer suggestions or you may want to spend some time on the Health board mastering the basics of testing, low carb diet, and getting your SS set up. We’re happy to help you with those things, but you should be aware that this is a busy board and if there’s an emergency, everyone’s attention goes to helping the caregiver and his/her kitty.

Once you’ve got a handle on the basics, you will have the option of following the Tight Regulation Protocol or the Start Low Go Slow (SLGS) method for managing your cat’s diabetes. You don’t have to stick with whichever approach you initially choose but it is helpful to give your choice a chance so you can evaluate the results fairly.

The Tight Regulation protocol was developed based upon the premise that a cat's pancreas may be able to heal and return to producing insulin if the cat's BG is kept in a normal range (i.e., 50-120}. Caregivers following this protocol adjust insulin doses following the protocol guidelines to aim for that range. Basic information on the TR is here: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/lantus-levemir-tight-regulation-protocol.1581/. The advantage of this approach is that it is based on research published in a leading veterinary journal and has an admirable track record of getting cats who are within the first year since diagnosis into remission.

The Start Low Go Slow (SLGS) approach has caregivers start with an initial dose based upon the BG at diagnosis and whether kitty has been transitioned to a wet low carb diet, hold that dose for a week or two while testing for ketones regularly, being consistent with food and testing before shooting every 12 hours. Once a week a curve is done (test every 2 hours for one cycle) to check for the lowest point. the low number in that curve determines any dose change for the following week. This approach was the original method used in the FDMB prior to the TR protocol. It is an alternate approach if TR is not the right fit for you or your kitty. Basic information on the SLGS approach is here: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/lantus-levemir-start-low-go-slow-method-slgs.129446/.

Both approaches require that you test at pre-shot times and do your best to test at least once each 12-hour cycle. Lantus and Lev dosing is based on the lowest number in the cycle (i.e., the nadir) so getting at least one spot check is important to guide your dosing decisions.

If you are switching to lantus or levemir from any other insulin, please post for suggestions on the starting dose before you change insulins. You should also get your vet’s recommendation.

Amy&Trixie, Dyana&(GA)J.D., Julie&(GA) Punkin, Marje&Gracie, Sandy&Black Kitty, Sienne&Gabby, Wendy&Neko
When I started in February 2011, all the Lantus users were in the same insulin support group and the Tight Regulation Protocol was the automatic dosing guide. If someone couldn't manage the testing, they modified it to work for them. Before the Tight Reg Protocol was published the people here on FDMB had come up with the SLGS. I have often thought how glad I am that coming in new, I didn't have to figure out what to follow. People just taught me how to use Tight Reg and that's what we did. Punkin had acromegaly, so we didn't follow it tightly after his diagnosis. You can always modify to make things work for you and your own cat.



 
Like Julie said, you don't need to do a 24 hour curve. You need some sleep!

For me, there's no comparison. The only method for dosing that has published research behind it is TR. I'm a big fan of evidence based medicine -- whether it be for humans or our companions.
 
In looking at your spreadsheet, you seem to already be doing the minimum amount of testing to do TR.

I personally like the TR as I really like knowing where Skooter is and being able to adjust his dose more frequently, as he needs it versus holding a dose for any longer than I have to (whether an increase or a decrease).....However, I have never tried the SLGS method....I started out with the TR and am very happy with his results. It is a little more aggressive than the SLGS from what I have read, but it is worth it to me...
 
Wow ! Thanks. I've looked at most of the stuff, stickies etc. just really want opinions.
In looking at your spreadsheet, you seem to already be doing the minimum amount of testing to do TR.

I personally like the TR as I really like knowing where Skooter is and being able to adjust his dose more frequently, as he needs it versus holding a dose for any longer than I have to (whether an increase or a decrease).....However, I have never tried the SLGS method....I started out with the TR and am very happy with his results. It is a little more aggressive than the SLGS from what I have read, but it is worth it to me...
wow you're Skooter is 17 ! Awesome! Thanks for the input !
 
Long story short, the pet sitter took him to the animal hospital because he tested at 500 because she couldn't give him his insulin.....so the hospital / my vet.... gave him 2 units when he got there and another 2 u a few hours later when he was in the 300's. They gave him 2 units twice a day , the three days he was there. I was livid! I was so worried about him the whole time I was in Mexico. Sorry that wasn't so short.
 
For me, there's no comparison. The only method for dosing that has published research behind it is TR. I'm a big fan of evidence based medicine -- whether it be for humans or our companions.

I agree with this. That's not to say I follow TR perfectly every cycle. But I strongly believe in a protocol I can support with published research, and it has worked well for us 4 times over now so our personal experience has enforced that belief.

I also see a pattern lately of people saying they are following SLGS, but look more like they are practicing TR. I think many people get scared by the terminology but find once they are testing they really like knowing what is going on and in practice are pretty close to following TR anyway.
 
Scuse me on 5/7 his BS was 180 at 8 am and 118 at 5 pm testing times/ no shots. On 5/8 at 8 am @ 436 2 U. They did not test pm of 5/8 but gave 2 u and brought him home. He spent the night here by himself because I missed my connection and didn't get home til Sat 5/9.
 
It's ok, Jamye. No worries - it's been almost 2 years ago that he died. I miss him like crazy, of course, but at least i'm past the point of weeping every time I think of him.

He did the acupuncture for several weeks, but the vet tried hooking them up to electrical stimulation once, and punkin went a bit crazy with it. He was trying to bite and pull out the needles. After that he started trembling when we went in, and I just couldn't bring myself to make him do it any more. It did work fairly well for pain relief, though.
 
I had never heard of an animal getting acupuncture and Punkin was really a CHAMP! Our furkids touch our lives for a time, our hearts furever. My Persian, Shelby, was just weeks shy of 16 when he crossed over. A year after he passed, I walked into a pet grooming place....they had a sign out front "kittens for adoption." He has a blue eye, and a green eye. That was 8 years ago and Fred is the love of my life now. He's seen me through divorce and relocating. I'd do anything for him. So if acupuncture would help him, I'd do it in a heartbeat. Hope you're having a good day. So, you don't have any other furkids?
 
I am still trying to figure out how the new question/ condo/ thread stuff works. "Bear" with me.
My question is : based on yesterday's curve.... I'm thinking leave dose at 1.0. I'm still reading about switching to TR.
Your thoughts, please. I just updated today's tests.
 
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You'd want to hold the 1U dose for at least 8-10 cycles since it IS getting him into lower blue numbers. This morning's was just 5 on the 1U dose, so I'd hold it for at least 3 more (unless he dropped below 50) and re-evaluate then
 
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I agree with Chris - he looks very good on the 1u.

Unless you catch a test under 50, if you're following TR, you're going to hold the dose 6-10 cycles and then re-evaluate it and decide if you should hold longer or increase. That is based upon this part of the guidelines:

Increasing the dose:
  • Hold the dose for 3 - 5 days (6 - 10 consecutive cycles) if nadirs are less than 200 before increasing the dose by 0.25 unit.
    • if your cat is new to numbers under 200, it is recommended to hold the dose for at least 8-10 cycles before increasing.
    • when your cat starts to see nadirs under 100, hold the dose for at least 10 cycles before increasing.
When you have higher nadirs, say they are all around 180, then you might increase on the shorter length of the range - maybe 6 cycles.

With nadirs 117, 120, 130, I'd hold for the longer end of that range, say 8-10 consecutive cycles before re-evaluating.

Oh - and you do want to start a new post each day. That's one thing we ask people to do to keep the board manageable.
 
So, you don't have any other furkids?
I do have 3 other cats. We had Punkin's "wife" Anya, who is just 6 or so now, while he was alive. She's in all the videos with him. They were quite the bonded pair and when we took Punkin to Colorado to have him treated for the acromegaly, we took Anya along too. Why be only slightly insane if you can go the whole way!? ;) Two days driving in the car each way from Oregon to Colorado and back.

After Punkin died, we thought Anya would be happier with little guys, and we intended to just get one cat (famous last words) when we went to the shelter, but they were having a 2-fer sale, so we brought 2 male kitties home. McGee is a tuxedo boy and very sweet and gentle. Frodo was buff colored, but he darkened and now he looks just like punkin everywhere except his face. It's shaped differently. He is Trouble, but of course we love him anyway. He stalks after Anya and attacks her, just because he can. It's been really bad. I've done all the things you do to try to help cats get along but at best they are in a stand-off. Anya tells me all the time that she wishes we'd send them back! :p
 
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