Food question: protein/fat/carb ratios

[Howiesmom]

I have been in an ongoing email saga with Dr. Elseys food company and can use some help. Howie has been eating their pork pate for many months but I can tell he is getting bored with the food. This weekend, I got a shipment of a duck/turkey pate to see if he likes a new flavor. They have been very forthcoming with all their food values (As Fed, DMB, and I just got the ME profiles). I know that Dr. Lisa’s chart has the ME profiles and her recommendations are foods that are at least 40% protein, less than 50% fat, and less than 10% carbs.

The pork pate (which he’s done very well on to keep his BG in check) is 51% protein, 41% fat, and 7.37% carbs. The duck/turkey pate is 36% protein, 62% fat, and 1.24% carbs. HOWEVER, just feeding him a small bit of the duck/turkey food shot his BG way up despite the carbs being even lower than the pork. Would the fact that the protein:fat ratio of the duck/turkey food is so different than the pork really result in his BG getting thrown off so much? I realize that I can just keep him on the pork pate, but they are changing all their food formulas next month (I have all the new food values for those too). I don’t feel like I can trust their data unless there is another reason why a low carb food would shoot his BG up. The next problem is that the pork protein in the next formula is dropping to 37% and fat is going up to 57%. The carbs are holding pretty steady at 7.89%. So will this new formula have the same effect as the duck/turkey food he just tried?

I appreciate anyone’s perspective on trying to figure this out. I really like their food as it doesn’t have all the preservatives like carrageenan that upset his stomach. I guess I’m out the $50 for the case of food I can’t return to Amazon, but I really need to figure this out and what I should do next. I can stockpile a bunch of food, but that doesn’t help with the fact he is bored with it and is starting to walk away from it.
Does anyone have any sort of flavor topper I could add to the pork food that is low/no carb that could liven it up for him?

 

[Librarianista]

You could try bonito flakes sprinkled on top? Some brands might add ingredients, but there are some that are just the smoked fish. It’s one of the recommendations for diabetic cat treats. Also probably cheaper since it’s human food!

 

[Bandit's Mom]

So the duck/turkey pate which has 1.24% carbs is spiking his BG more than the pork pate which has 7.37% carbs?

Does he have an allergy to certain protein? That could be one reason. The other could be that it's not the food that's causing his BG to rise but that he failed the reduction? Just thinking aloud.

Let me tag @Wendy&Neko and @tiffmaxee for advice.

 

[Teetee (UK)]

Hi @Howiesmom
I just had a look around their site to see if i can help and i have seen this, but i can't find the figures you're quoting or am i looking at the wrong food.

 

[JaxBenji]

Do you happen to have updated nutritional values for the flavors in question? I can plug them into Marje's formula (see the tab on Jax's SS). I did this for pork and the duck+turkey flavors using the DMB values on the website (link) - I couldn't use the AF values since they don't list moisture Barring any typos from me , the pork is 7.89% and duck+turkey is 11.44% (using the DMB values and Marje's formula).

I'm also not sure if you've looked at Koha - they have duck pate and post nutritional info online. I have fed this to my civvie before and can only buy it at a smaller pet store here (pet people).

 

[Sarah&Soph]

There could be several reasons for this. First, this is from Dr. Lisa's food chart:

"Carbohydrates: This is an important area of consideration – especially for diabetic patients. I often see diabetic cat caregivers taking this value far too literally…assuming that 6% vs 9% is statistically significant when it is not. Unfortunately, this macronutrient is not actually measured in a lab. Instead, it is calculated by subtraction. In other words, we add up the moisture + protein + fat + fber + ash and subtract that value from 100% leaving us with the carbohydrate fraction. However, any error in those Big Five values will result in an error (usually an overage) in the carbohydrate value. Stated another way: The carb values noted on this chart are probably higher (overestimating) than they actually are. Even a value of 10% carbs could actually be closer to 0% carbs. Therefore, stick with the directive to stay below 10% carbohydrates but do NOT get caught up in whether a diet says 10%...or 5%....or 0% because these numbers are just not that accurate"

So it could be that the duck is actually higher than 1.24%, the pork is lower than 7.37%, the formula has changed recently, etc. Also, ECID - it could just be that your kitty reacts differently to certain foods/proteins, or as has been suggested, is more sensitive or maybe has an intolerance. That's why it's often suggested to make a note of what foods you feed and when if you don't always feed the same one, to see if there's any kind of pattern.

There's also this sticky to consider as well: Feeding Lowest/Zero Carb vs Lower Carb Foods

https://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/feeding-lowest-zero-carb-vs-lower-carb-foods.144220/

Or it could be completely unrelated to the food at all, it could just totally be a coincidence

 

[Howiesmom]

Hi @Howiesmom
I just had a look around their site to see if i can help and i have seen this, but i can't find the figures you're quoting or am i looking at the wrong food.
View attachment 61186

The values chart they have on their website right now (that you posted) is for the NEW food that they are releasing next month. I have an email with all the current food values from their customer service.

 

[Howiesmom]

There could be several reasons for this. First, this is from Dr. Lisa's food chart:

"Carbohydrates: This is an important area of consideration – especially for diabetic patients. I often see diabetic cat caregivers taking this value far too literally…assuming that 6% vs 9% is statistically significant when it is not. Unfortunately, this macronutrient is not actually measured in a lab. Instead, it is calculated by subtraction. In other words, we add up the moisture + protein + fat + fber + ash and subtract that value from 100% leaving us with the carbohydrate fraction. However, any error in those Big Five values will result in an error (usually an overage) in the carbohydrate value. Stated another way: The carb values noted on this chart are probably higher (overestimating) than they actually are. Even a value of 10% carbs could actually be closer to 0% carbs. Therefore, stick with the directive to stay below 10% carbohydrates but do NOT get caught up in whether a diet says 10%...or 5%....or 0% because these numbers are just not that accurate"

So it could be that the duck is actually higher than 1.24%, the pork is lower than 7.37%, the formula has changed recently, etc. Also, ECID - it could just be that your kitty reacts differently to certain foods/proteins, or as has been suggested, is more sensitive or maybe has an intolerance. That's why it's often suggested to make a note of what foods you feed and when if you don't always feed the same one, to see if there's any kind of pattern.

There's also this sticky to consider as well: Feeding Lowest/Zero Carb vs Lower Carb Foods

https://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/feeding-lowest-zero-carb-vs-lower-carb-foods.144220/

Or it could be completely unrelated to the food at all, it could just totally be a coincidence

Thanks for this sticky and info! I’ve given him the duck/turkey twice now and both times his BG saw a 40+ point spike at +3 test (normal spike from the pork food is about 20-25 points). So yes, the duck as a protein could definitely be the culprit as he’s never had it as a protein before. I’m just nervous to venture from his current food as I don’t know if he will get another spike and then Im out a bunch of $ again.

 

[Howiesmom]

Do you happen to have updated nutritional values for the flavors in question? I can plug them into Marje's formula (see the tab on Jax's SS). I did this for pork and the duck+turkey flavors using the DMB values on the website (link) - I couldn't use the AF values since they don't list moisture Barring any typos from me , the pork is 7.89% and duck+turkey is 11.44% (using the DMB values and Marje's formula).

I'm also not sure if you've looked at Koha - they have duck pate and post nutritional info online. I have fed this to my civvie before and can only buy it at a smaller pet store here (pet people).

View attachment 61187

Their As Fed values of the current food add up above 100% from what they sent me so I’ve not been able to use that formula to verify anything. Your calculations above are from their website but they are for the new formulas of food coming out next month. Moisture for all their food is 78%. Here are the As Fed values of current duck/turkey:
Protein: 12.787
Fat: 9.154
Fiber: .381
Ash: 1.619

Here are the DMB values of the current food:
Protein: 53.279
Fat: 38.142
Fiber: 1.588
Ash: 6.746

 

[Sarah&Soph]

Thanks for this sticky and info! I’ve given him the duck/turkey twice now and both times his BG saw a 40+ point spike at +3 test (normal spike from the pork food is about 20-25 points). So yes, the duck as a protein could definitely be the culprit as he’s never had it as a protein before. I’m just nervous to venture from his current food as I don’t know if he will get another spike and then Im out a bunch of $ again.

Yes, they always seem to decide they don’t like a food after you buy an entire case of course Does he have any kind of food restrictions? If not, my cat loooooves the Pure Bites freeze dried salmon treats. When she decides to be picky, I sprinkle some of the treat dust from the bottom of the bag on top of her food and that gets her to eat it. Sometimes I just act like I’m putting some on top and that still works, silly cat

If you do decide to venture from your current food, Weruva as a whole is a good brand if you haven’t checked it out before. They have lots of different kinds, flavors, textures, etc and they have the ME info right on their website. You can also easily get single cans to try first at places like Petco or Petsmart if that’s an option for you.

 

[Howiesmom]

Yes, they always seem to decide they don’t like a food after you buy an entire case of course Does he have any kind of food restrictions? If not, my cat loooooves the Pure Bites freeze dried salmon treats. When she decides to be picky, I sprinkle some of the treat dust from the bottom of the bag on top of her food and that gets her to eat it. Sometimes I just act like I’m putting some on top and that still works, silly cat

If you do decide to venture from your current food, Weruva as a whole is a good brand if you haven’t checked it out before. They have lots of different kinds, flavors, textures, etc and they have the ME info right on their website. You can also easily get single cans to try first at places like Petco or Petsmart if that’s an option for you.

The only food restrictions are no preservatives like carrageenan and guar gum. He gets freeze dried turkey treats but I never think to keep the dust! Someone else suggested Bonita flakes too! I appreciate the suggestions! I’ve always looked at Weruva food but it’s even more expensive than what he gets now, so I’ve never tried it (but I should!). I just bought 4 more cases of his current food to stock up before their new formula comes out next month that I’m leery of. His grocery bill is more than mine!

 

[Teetee (UK)]

The values chart they have on their website right now (that you posted) is for the NEW food that they are releasing next month. I have an email with all the current food values from their customer service.

Ah right i see, sorry about that @Howiesmom

 

[Sienne and Gabby (GA)]

Sometimes a cat's numbers will spike more due to a change in food than anything else. I've seen a few cats that were fed a new food with the same nutrient profile and the BG numbers spiked. You may need to keep feeding the duck and see if the numbers level out.

 

[Howiesmom]

Sometimes a cat's numbers will spike more due to a change in food than anything else. I've seen a few cats that were fed a new food with the same nutrient profile and the BG numbers spiked. You may need to keep feeding the duck and see if the numbers level out.

I need to figure out if the major spikes are worth it. The last time he got it a couple weeks ago, he spiked above 200 which he hasn’t done in months. I want to think it wouldn’t be a constant spike and his body would normalize the change, but it is a risk. I appreciate the perspective to think about because if I change his food to anything, this may be the case! Thanks!