Food intolerance

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Sean & Rufus

Sean & Rufus

Member Since 2018
Hi all-

New here. Posted long intro in other forum. Cat has food intolerance and used to eat RC selective (rabbit), but now eats Fancy Feast because it's low carb and really he wont eat the RC right now because of being picky and nauseaous.

So, I'm pretty sure the Fancy Feast is causing pancreatis which is why we cant get him regulated but also is causing him to be very selective. I need to get him back on a rabbit protein, but am worried because they are higher carb, but at this point his numbers are high so whats the difference.

Do you think it's better to give low carb food, which I'm sure he an intolerance to, or selective food that is too high in carbs, but could possibly help with the pancreatitis?

Thanks for any thoughts on the matter!
 
Yes, low carb canned food is best. However, there are many members with kitties that have a variety of needs (meds, special diet, etc.) related to other health issues that have to be accommodated. In those cases, insulin has to be dosed around the other needs.
 
Thanks. That is what I was thinking now. He has zero carb limited ingredient dry food, but can't really eat it yet. It's all a catch 22 with this. Jjust got to get him to eat consistently, and on his own and I think the dry food will be a great thing!
 
He's on pepcid 5mg a day. If I miss a day, it takes days to get back to "normal". Yes, he had a blood test for the pancreatitis. Can't remember the name off hand, but it was positive. He hasn't had an ultrasound.
 
S&R said:
So, I'm pretty sure the Fancy Feast is causing pancreatis which is why we cant get him regulated but also is causing him to be very selective. I need to get him back on a rabbit protein, but am worried because they are higher carb, but at this point his numbers are high so whats the difference.
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Sometimes - especially when dealing with issues like pancreatitis and IBD - the 'right food' is the one the kitty can actually eat reliably and comfortably.

As you say above, it can be a real catch-22. :(


Mogs
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S&R said:
Yes, he had a blood test for the pancreatitis. Can't remember the name off hand, but it was positive.
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Spec fPL gives a numerical result indicative of level of inflammation. (Needs to be sent out to external lab for processing.)

SNAP fPL gives a yes/no result for pancreatic abnormality. (Usually done in house by general practice vets offering the test.)


Mogs
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I read your intro post and see three areas of concern:
  1. food (or other) allergies that need attention - food, meds, etc.
  2. possible/probable ongoing pancreatitis - treatment of symptoms is the usual approach
  3. several insulin dose changes in a very short time and in large whole unit increments.
Numbers 1 and 2 are tricky to treat. You can post about these specifically on this forum. Number 3 is something we can address with you now. You'll get the best Lantus dosing advice over on that forum. There are many experienced members there who can help. They likely have experience with the other health issues too.
 
S&R said:
He's on pepcid 5mg a day. If I miss a day, it takes days to get back to "normal". Yes, he had a blood test for the pancreatitis. Can't remember the name off hand, but it was positive. He hasn't had an ultrasound.
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Here's a very helpful document from IDEXX labs with all the recommended treatments for kitties with pancreatitis:

IDEXX Feline Pancreatitis Guidelines

Ondansetron and Cerenia can help much more with nausea issues than Pepcid AC.


Mogs
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My biggest concern is we keep upping the dose, but the numbers stay relatively the same. Not saying I have the answer, or don't trust the vet, but just seems odd to me that he is off the pred, eats minimal carbs, and we keep upping the dose and no changes in numbers. I was really thinking and hoping that stress from the vet was elevating the numbers. We did do a fructosamen test and it came back "poor" though, so not sure it is stress elevating his numbers.
 
S&R said:
My biggest concern is we keep upping the dose, but the numbers stay relatively the same. Not saying I have the answer, or don't trust the vet, but just seems odd to me that he is off the pred, eats minimal carbs, and we keep upping the dose and no changes in numbers. I was really thinking and hoping that stress from the vet was elevating the numbers. We did do a fructosamen test and it came back "poor" though, so not sure it is stress elevating his numbers.
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It's possible that the insulin dose is causing a phenomenon we refer to as "bouncing". It happens when the dose is too high and the BG levels shoot up to high numbers and stay there. The dose is increased over and over until the cat crashes. Her's something I use to explain bouncing:
  1. BG goes low OR lower than usual OR drops too quickly.
  2. Kitty's body panics and thinks there's danger (OMG! My BG is too low!).
  3. Complex physiologic processes take glycogen stored in the liver (I think of it as "bounce fuel"), convert it to glucose and dump it into the bloodstream to counteract the perceived dangerously low BG.
  4. These processes go into overdrive in kitties who are bounce prone and keep the BG propped up varying lengths of time (AKA bouncing).
  5. Bounce prone kitty repeats this until his body learns that healthy low numbers are safe. Some kitties are slow learners.
  6. Too high a dose of insulin can keep them bouncing over and over until the " bounce fuel" runs out and they crash - ie., have a hypo episode. That's why we worry so much about kitties that have had too high a starting dose prescribed by the vet and the owner isn't home testing.
 
S&R said:
Thanks critter mom. We've tried the cerenia shot and the pills and they don't seem to do anything. I'll ask the vet about Ondansetron.
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Ondansetron dosing for 10lb/4.5kg cat is 1-2mg q8hrs up to a maximum of 4mg/day. Many find that starting on 2mg ondansetron q12hrs gets it working faster, although it can take 24-36hrs to reach full therapeutic effect. Some members here administer Cerenia and ondansetron in tandem. Both drugs work on different receptors to alleviate nausea, plus Cerenia can exert some anti-inflammatory benefit. B12 injections can also help with inflammation (and appetite).

If pancreatitis symptoms are more severe then buprenorphine may be needed for pain management (and it may be occult pain one is dealing with, so tricky again).


Mogs
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I'm not testing at home, because both vets told me I didn't need to and because I really didn't want to due it because of being uncomfortable doing it and I am already pestering him enough that he's starting to give me dirty looks :)
 
He was on buep for 3 days in Nov. Day 2 was super awesome, day 3 was so-so. That med is super expensive though. I was given some gabapentin by the Vet dentist. Didn't seem to improve anything, and made him super tired (more so than already).
 
S&R said:
I'm not testing at home, because both vets told me I didn't need to and because I really didn't want to due it because of being uncomfortable doing it and I am already pestering him enough that he's starting to give me dirty looks :)
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I'll encourage you to give this some thought. It's really the best way to know whether insulin is helping and to keep your kitty safe from a hypo.
 
The extremely hard part of this is he is only eating super liquified foods right now. 1 can of food to 1/2 can water in food processor. Last week he tried and ate dry food for the first time in a couple months. Both vet and dentist vet think it's not a tooth issue, but the pancreatitis. Dentist won't do anything until he's "fair" on the fructosamine test. The dentist gave me the gabapentin. I tried it for 2 days, no noticable diff. Also, didn't give him a pepcid for a day, and been kinda downhill since.
 
Please do consider home testing. It’s not hard. To do and is really the only way to keep Rufus safe and k ow how well the insulin is working. Are you testing for ketones?
 
Sharon, Those are my exact worries. I am so impatient to get him regulated, but I think she's moving the doses too fast. I keep asking how do I know if he's hypo and she said I'll know because he'll be lethargic. Well, he's almost always lethargic now!
 
Urine ketone testing is another good tool. Here are some ways to do it:
  • put the end of the test strip right in his urine stream as he's peeing
  • slip a shallow, long handled spoon under his backside to catch a little pee - you don't need much
  • put a double layer of plastic wrap over his favourite part of the litter box and poke some depressions in it too catch pee.
Most test strips have to be dipped and allowed to develop for 15 seconds before viewing the colour change in very good light.

You can buy urine ketone test strips in any human pharmacy.
 
I do truly believe this all started because of food intolerance. I just got some new food for him today and he's actually eating it, so I'm crossing my fingers and this will help the pancreatisits! Thank you all for helping me, so frustrating seeing him look "well" and have high numbers and crappy and have high numbers.
 
Please get the ketone strips and test. High numbers and not eating enough can lead to ketones and the sooner you catch that the better
 
S&R said:
Ok will do. What are ketones?
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Ketones can form and circulate in the bloodstream of a diabetic cat when their BG is too high, they're dehydrated, haven't been eating or have some infection/inflammation going on. The kitty's body starts breaking down its own tissues and releases ketones in the process. If they build up they can make the kitty very seriously ill, a disease called diabetic ketoacidosis (DKA). Treatment usually involves a very expensive stay in a veterinary ICU for several days. It can be life threatening. This is one of many reasons why we're such huge proponents of tracking BG at home and being very hands on with the diabetes treatment.
 
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btw, not sure if anybody can answer this. I want the vet to give him sub q fluids, because when he had it the first time it seemed to help a lot, and also and if he's short on any vitamins. She won't give it to him though because she's worried it will raise his already high BG. Do diabetic cats ever get sub q or is that normally reserved for kidney cats?
 
If anything sub-qs are more likely to lower BG levels by dilution. My Saoirse has had IV fluids at times for dehydration (related to pancreatitis and eating issues).

I suggest posting a separate question on Feline Health asking for input from caregivers of diabetic cats who also use sub-qs. I would imagine that caregivers managing FD and CKD concurrently should be able to offer some insight.


Mogs
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S&R said:
btw, not sure if anybody can answer this. I want the vet to give him sub q fluids, because when he had it the first time it seemed to help a lot, and also and if he's short on any vitamins. She won't give it to him though because she's worried it will raise his already high BG. Do diabetic cats ever get sub q or is that normally reserved for kidney cats?
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I know that sub Q fluids can help with pancreatitis and owners often learn to do it at home. I'm not sure why your vet thinks it would raise his BG - stress?
 
I'm not sure why either, except she said there are sugars in the fluids and also about disrupting the lantus. I really think she hasn't been asked about this before and didn't know how to respond. I've asked her to give him a treatment a couple times and she pretty much says he doesn't need it because he's not dehydrated. I'll put this on my list of questions for her tomorrow.
 
Kris & Teasel said:
It's possible that the insulin dose is causing a phenomenon we refer to as "bouncing". It happens when the dose is too high and the BG levels shoot up to high numbers and stay there. The dose is increased over and over until the cat crashes. Her's something I use to explain bouncing:
  1. BG goes low OR lower than usual OR drops too quickly.
  2. Kitty's body panics and thinks there's danger (OMG! My BG is too low!).
  3. Complex physiologic processes take glycogen stored in the liver (I think of it as "bounce fuel"), convert it to glucose and dump it into the bloodstream to counteract the perceived dangerously low BG.
  4. These processes go into overdrive in kitties who are bounce prone and keep the BG propped up varying lengths of time (AKA bouncing).
  5. Bounce prone kitty repeats this until his body learns that healthy low numbers are safe. Some kitties are slow learners.
  6. Too high a dose of insulin can keep them bouncing over and over until the " bounce fuel" runs out and they crash - ie., have a hypo episode. That's why we worry so much about kitties that have had too high a starting dose prescribed by the vet and the owner isn't home testing.
Click to expand...

So sorry if this is a dumb question. Hard to wrap head around it. So if he is getting too high of a dose, yet his BG numbers are high, how would we know if the dose is too high? He would eventually have a hypo incident? His new dose it 5 and 5. If I home test and the number is normal, does that mean everything is Ok and the increases had been warranted? My concern is that his body is just adjusting to the higher doses and hopefully isn't needed. Isn't 5 and 5 a lot? And who even knows where the numbers will end at as hes still not regulated.
 
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S&R said:
So sorry if this is a dumb question. Hard to wrap hear around it. So if he is getting too high of a dose, yet his BG numbers are high, how would we know if the dose is too high? He would eventually have a hypo incident?
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Yes, as per item 6 in the bouncing explanation. Basically, kitty is using up reserves of glycogen in the liver to convert to glucose (complex biochemical processes) to prop up the BG that's being pushed down hard by too high a dose of insulin. It's a self protective measure. Once those reserves are gone, down goes the BG and kitty crashes. It's also possible the the bounce-inflated high BG levels can trigger ketone formation which can lead to DKA.

S&R said:
So if he is getting too high of a dose, yet his BG numbers are high, how would we know if the dose is too high?
Click to expand...
You don't know if a dose is too high unless you see hypo symptoms or you have a BG testing routine in place.
 
iu



Mogs
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Our Callie has been going quite well for almost 2 years. I noticed that she had some diadestive problems. I noticed that she got dierahha when ever we gave her salmon flavored food. I stopped giving it to her but just about every thing caused problems. I talked to the vet who suggested we give her only one flavored food for a week and keep a journal to see what foods bothered her. It turns out that Callie can eat turkey and chicken as long as there is no fish or liver. I order Fancy Feast by the case from Amazon. Mostly chicken or Sheba turkey. Ours next plan is to buy frozen ground rabbit and see if she likes it. It takes time and patience, but it is well worth it
 
donnalea said:
Our Callie has been going quite well for almost 2 years. I noticed that she had some diadestive problems. I noticed that she got dierahha when ever we gave her salmon flavored food. I stopped giving it to her but just about every thing caused problems. I talked to the vet who suggested we give her only one flavored food for a week and keep a journal to see what foods bothered her. It turns out that Callie can eat turkey and chicken as long as there is no fish or liver. I order Fancy Feast by the case from Amazon. Mostly chicken or Sheba turkey. Ours next plan is to buy frozen ground rabbit and see if she likes it. It takes time and patience, but it is well worth it
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I suspect the intolerance is to turkey, but could be fish. He is (until last night) only eating Fancy Feast seafood flavors. It's hard to say for sure what is in those canned foods as far as protein goes. I switched him to Wysong rabbit last night and he's eating it so far!
 
S&R said:
I suspect the intolerance is to turkey, but could be fish. He is (until last night) only eating Fancy Feast seafood flavors. It's hard to say for sure what is in those canned foods as far as protein goes. I switched him to Wysong rabbit last night and he's eating it so far!
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Rats! That's difficult. Hope you pinpoint the issue.

I expect you are already aware that Wysong is not considered a balanced food for our cats but a supplement which can be fed in with other balanced foods.
DrPeirson food charts said:
Applaws, Evangers,andWysong
are examples of companies that manufacture diets that are for
supplemental use only. In general, “supplemental” diets do not contain enough nutrients such as
calcium, B vitamins, iodine,
etc. These unbalanced diets should not make up more than 15-20% of the
cat’s total caloric intake. Stated another way, if you feed your cat 21 meals per week, you could use
these supplmental diets for ~4 meals per week as stand-alone meals or mixed with a nutritionally
balanced product
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From the food guide HERE
 
PussCatPrince said:
Rats! That's difficult. Hope you pinpoint the issue.

I expect you are already aware that Wysong is not considered a balanced food for our cats but a supplement which can be fed in with other balanced foods.


From the food guide HERE
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Yeah, I know unfortunately. I'm trying to get him to eat some of his dry food also. I'm hoping that eating this wysong for a couple weeks will help improve his pancreatits and in turn will get him to have less pain and be able to eat the dry food. Other plan will be to look for taurine supplement or have to go back to RC selective.
 
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