Food fight with vet.

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sueandsamwise

sueandsamwise

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We brought Samwise home from the vets today after 3 days there and over $800 spent on care. He is starting on .5 u Prozinc in the morning and 1 u in the evening. They said this kept him regulated. We will see. We are going to test and they told us to force feed if necessary before the shot. The food they gave for force feeding has corn flour in it. Supposed to be high calorie and put something in his belly.

I told the vet I wasn't buying a case of the Purina DM since it is high in carbs. She said it is cheaper than an emergency vet visit. I told her that every thing is cheaper than a vet visit. She kept grilling me about where I got my info and I told her I'd done research on line about feline diabetes. She pissed me off telling me that I had to feed this canned food and i kept saying no, Fancy Feast and Friskies pates worked for over a year and she just said well, it quit working. I agreed but I said I was going to differ with her on the food issue. She got disgusted and left without a goodbye. I am going to change vets after I sound out a few on their views on the subject. I refuse to pay the outrageous prices for Hill's products. cat(2)_steam So, back to testing and if necessary force feeding Samwise. I am so sad it's come back to this but he got so debilitated before the emergency visit that I feel that had a lot to do with his decline. I just hope he can come back.

He was so happy to get home and go outside for a bit and pee and poop out of doors. He looked happier too. Wish us luck with our Sammie.
 
Sending Angels Prayers and tons of healing green vibes to your Sammy. You are so right we have to take control of our furkids health because we know them better then the vet. All animals are different and this place knows about DC much more then some vets Here is lots of luck too coming your way HUGSSSSSSSSSS Kath
 
told the vet I wasn't buying a case of the Purina DM since it is high in carbs
Click to expand...

Heres the data on Canned purina DM:

DM
According to Janet & Binky
the new DM (silver top cans) contains
35% of calories from protein
60% of calories from fat
5% of calories from carbohydrate
262 mg phosphorus/100 calories

Personally I question whether the fat content is that high, because it heats in the MW about half as fast as the Friskies flavors I also use. When using it we never had any pancreatitis flair ups. When I changed to Friskies only he had an attack within 2 weeks and started using pepcid. I still use both but, in my opinion Purina DM is not the evil food many here make it out to be.

I also improve the protein content of any store bought food with frozen chicken breast "ice cubes" that I make in bulk and freeze.

If the vet is still selling the gold top cans- don't buy them, they have a different recipe which was not as good. It was changed about 1 year ago.
Good luck!
 
Thanks! I was also going to ask if anyone has found a place to buy the Prozinc cheaper than 127.50 a vial. 10ML. I really didn't think that I needed to be grilled by the vet about the food issue. I think I can feed my cat what worked in the past and not be subject to being brow beaten in the lobby of her clinic over this. :evil: I printed out the food chart by Janet and Binky and will send her a copy showing the Friskies, Fancy Feast and Purina (Hills) foods and she can read it or not. She also wants to do a fructose test? I don't know if I spelt that test right. I'm still fuming over the treatment I got there.
 
Nancy and Cody said:
Personally I question whether the fat content is that high, because it heats in the MW about half as fast as the Friskies flavors I also use.
Click to expand...

Actually, the higher the fat in something, the faster it will heat up.
 
Actually the issue many around here have had with the "prescription" diets like DM is more about the quality of the ingredients for the price they charge. And that many of our cats might eat it for a meal or two and then decide they don't like it....then what do you do? At least Friskies and Fancy Feast have a variety that you can choose from that meet the general low carb definition and are a much better fit for the pocketbook.
 
there's always Dr. Lisa Pierson too if your vet is open to a consult?? http://www.catinfo.org
she's, in my opinion, the leading expert in feline nutrition. my vet has done consults with her so I know she's open to talking to other vets. assuming yours goes in with a better attitude than she had with you? :-D
 
Actually, the higher the fat in something, the faster it will heat up.
Click to expand...

thats exactly what i mean

1/4 cup of Friskies pate is snapping/ and popping after 5 sec, and 1/4 cup of DM requires 10 full sec to get room temp and it doesn't "pop", So I have always suspected it contained less fat. Just a suspicion... ;-)


Oh and the catinfo.org website is an awesome suggestion- definitely give that to your vet! Its written by Dr Lisa Pierson.
 
Sorry about the food fight with the vet. Been there, done that, bought the T Shirt.

I just wanted to invite you over to the PZI room in the Insulin Support Group Forum.
 
Too bad about the food fight --

I must say that the Fancy Feast with the new labels DOES cause Tiggy & Rusty's blood sugar to go high.

I talked to the rep at Purina, who insisted the ONLY change to the 3 flavors I inquired about - Chopped Grill, Chicken and can't remember #3 -- "chicken by-products" were no longer an ingredient.

All I can say is -- we have to go with what the blood sugar says -- no more Fancy Feast -- which is too bad.

We feed mostly Wellness Chicken or Turkey flavors -- the FF was just an evening snack anyway.
 
Call me crazy, but just whose cat are we talking about here? Is this cat belonging to the vet?
I tell my vet what goes and what does not go. If the vet wants my money for my cats' visits, the vet will do as I request. They suggested that special food, I tried it, the cats hated it, I told them it's crap and I am not feeding it.
That was the end of that.

Unless the vet is planning to pay for that food, the vet should suggest ONLY and not harrass. Man, I'd be outta that place so fast if my vet kept poking me about how I treat and feed my cats.

Take the vet proof. Tell your vet to speak with Dr. Lisa. If your vet resists, I would wonder about staying with such a vet.

But that's just me.

I don't feed fancy feast anymore; not one of my cats like the flavors now. And they cannot read labels to see the ingredients or see the cute new pictures on the cans. They just don't like it.The contents of the cans are crap. I don't care what any company rep says, there are just way too many cats all over the place who are turning their noses up at ff these days.
My cats still like the friskies flavors and they are also liking a store brand for president's choice I get here.
Yes, I have tried that special stuff from the vet that costs an arm and a leg; neither of my FD cats will touch it. It sat there and they went hungry for the day. I don't call that good food. And I am most certainly not cramming bad food down their throats; not when I put down some low carb friskies turkey&giblets and they eat just fine.

I have tried tons of foods with carbs under 10% from binky's list and lots of the expensive ones get tossed. Lucky for me, they like the cheaper ones! I also give raw chicken to my Oliver and have started the kitten on it too. They LOVE the chicken.

It's time you tell the vet just whose cat it is!
And I love the Dr. Lisa Pierson consult suggestion; if your vet is open to that, follows through, you may hear a different tune from your vet.
 
Yep, I'm tempted to leave. We did run a test on Sam last night about half and hour before his shot. He'd eaten and it was 238. This morning after he'd eaten a whopping great helping of Friskie's turkey at 5am it was 72. We tested around 7:45 am.So, it came down quite a bit. The husband wanted to give him the morning shot which is .5 u but I told him to test in an hour and then see if it come up. He isn't due for another shot until 10 anyway. They were shooting at 8-8:30 am then at 10pm. So, not quite 12 hours apart. I don't want him to go hypo when I'm not home and he's outside or something. The vets never said a word about home testing either.
 
Wow! So glad you are hometesting. Looks like maybe Sam doesn't care to be on insulin....Sometimes if kitties are going off insulin, you can feed them several small meals during the day. The food may work to bring their blood glucose levels down and keep them steady.

You are right. No shot under 200. Keep testing for an hour or so to see if it goes up. If not, test again tonight before the pm shot. Be prepared that it might be high because of the morning skipped shot. But with a number in the 70's, he has a long way to go!
 
wow thats great, 72 , glad you didn't shoot that, LOL! he's running lower than my civie! sounds like he wants to go otj again. :-D
 
HIs BG did come up around 10:30 when my husband did another test to 152. Against my better judgement he gave him .5u. He thinks the vet is on to something. Sam did eat before the shot though.

I could just see me and the doctor hurling cans of Purina DM at each other. :lol:
 
Frequent small meals and snacks work very well for many others, so it's something you could do with an auto feeder if nobody is home.
Wouldn't that be great if he turned out to be a diet controlled kitty!
 
Another good choice is Merrick cans - Cowboy Cookout and Grammy's Pot Pie flavors are high protein, very low carb. It's working well here.
 
I'd like to try the Merricks. Maybe I can get our feed store guy to order some. He gets me the Evo. We tried to get a blood sample at lunch and just couldn't get his ear to bleed. The DH was getting frustrated and I had to go back to work so we quit trying. He'll try again. Sam sat on his begging stool and asked for some of my lunch! He hadn't done that for several days.

It would be great to get him off the insulin again. He was on it last year for a month then got off due to diet. Now he's back on again.
 
Well, that's sounding promising .. being diet controlled!

What about ordering some foods online, or getting some sample orders from Merrick?
Or asking Merrick for a list of places close to you that carry their foods.
I hope you can get your hands on the foods that will make insulin no longer needed.
 
Me too. I need to check distributors. Sams BG did come up tonight. At 6:16pm it was 296. He ate through out the day, very good according to DH. He ate again at 6:23pm 7:36pm and at 7:49pm. He really scarfed up the food the last time. We'll do his evening shot after another Bg. My husband said I am getting to maniac about testing. I told him that he can help himself, Sam can't and I don't want him to die. Just looking at him I can tell he's better. His stomach isn't as sunken and he is a bit more bright eyed. He is sitting in my desk drawer next to me right now watching the cursor. He got very skinny, down to 5.40 pounds.
 
Sounds like you are seeing decent results. I like to see a good appetite too; it's a relief to know kitty is eating.
One thing to keep in mind is that you will see signs of improvement way before you see improvement in his numbers, so don't worry if the numbers are a bit slow to improve.
Always look to the cat to see the progress first.

Good luck finding some Merrick or other foods he likes and will eat.
 
Well, his PMPS was 346 so that's not great. They seem to be higher during the evening especially since he's eaten a lot of food in the last 3 hours. Well, it's 9:36pm and Sam just ate another helping of food!
 
personally i wouldn't bother paying for the fructosamine if you're home testing. it's basically like getting a snapshot of your cat's blood sugar over the past two weeks or so. why do it if you can home test and gather the data yourself?

and, yep, your vet is not at your house feeding your cat, so beyond giving advice and opinion, that's about it. it's your call. don't know if you mentioned that the vet who co-holds the patent on purina's dm doesn't even recommend it, as she said the protein sources are not as good as what you can get from regular supermarket pet food like fancy feast (pls choose cat foods that have chicken or turkey as the first ingredient). wellness is a whole class higher than that, too. my cats also like merrick's thanksgiving day dinner, tho that isn't the lowest carb food merrick offers.
 
Thanks,I think I'll run to Petco and get some wellness canned. I have Friskies pates and Fancy Feast but he's not to happy about either. We may have to force feed him this afternoon. He at a miniscule amount at lunch. His BG was 316 at 12:42 the DH gave him .5 u at 8:10. I've got to get a spread sheet up. AMPS was 446. nailbite_smile
 
don't forget, if you google wellness cat food and get to their page and register your email address you will get monthly emails from them with a link to a coupon for $1 off per can or $3 off a bag of wellness dry (i serve wellness core dry for inappetant/sick kitties). the coupon's good for about 10 days and you can print multiple copies. helps to save some on their stuff...
 
Thanks, I'll go to the site. I like coupons especially for expensive cat foods. I have fed Wellness dry before and did try a can of it once. Sam didn't eat any lunch, he at breakfast so I hope he eats when the hubby gets home. I wish he would have tested again but I saw no note. :-|
 
I noticed you also asked about the price of Prozinc. My vet sold it to me for $90 but that was a few months ago and was one of the cheapest I saw. The good news is that it is very durable and should be good until empty. At your 1u/day that will be over a year from now. A 10ml vial of u40 insulin has 400units in it. Just keep it out of the daylight or from freezing, and keep it as close to 37-41 as you can most of the time. It should survive a few mishaps such as being left out or dropped.( At least mine did when I used it) :-D
 
I'm quite new to FD, but I did choose to put my cat on the Purina DM. He came directly off of dry cat food and hasn't gone back. I guess I'm lucky, Dusty loves it, he gobbles it up. I have to say, it's definitely an expense I purchase it by the case and for Dusty it's 12 days @ $31.14. I don't know if this will help anyone or not, but my vet is selling me the Prozinc for $75 per vial but I have no idea who the distributer or Pharmaceutical company she's purchasing it from at this price. Could be she's selling it to me wholesale instead of retail? All my other supplies I have found that americandiabeteswholesale.com are very reasonable. I purchased an iPet meter kit for $41.99 from there, much lower cost than any other website. The meter kit my vet wanted me to purchase would have cost me $175. Both kits had the same supplies with it. I know I had the option of purchasing a human meter, but I decided to go with the pet meter. I decided on the iPet just to be able to be on the same page as my vet when I'm discussing a BG curve with her. We put our meters up against each other and they registered the exact same reading. I'm very pleased. I am considering trying Dusty on the Fancyfeast. My sister had 4 cases of it bought up for her cat that she resently had to have euthanized (she was 20+),I haven't gotten Dusty's BG under some kind of control though yet and am waiting to see if I can do that before switching him to a lower cost food. Hope some of this helps, I'll be praying for your kitty.
 
To Elaine & Dusty:

Hill's K/D canned is around 28% calories from carbs.

We recommend you get below 10% calories for carbs. There are many Friskies and Fancy Feast
flavors that meet that.

You may never get Dusty well-regulated on Hills K/D. And, the ingredients are not the best (lots of
by-products). Most cats get tired of one flavor, also.

You cannot go by the analysis on the can label.
Look for foods calories as fed 10% or lower in carbs. Consult Janet & Binky's Food Chart here:

http://binkyspage.tripod.com/CanFoodNew.html
 
Wow, that's a good price for the insulin. Cheapest I ever saw even on line. She must be getting it cheap somewhere. If the PZI lasts up to a year that would be great. Then the cost would be even cheaper per shot/bottle. Are you sure it would last a year, they never said how long one vial would last, I was thinking a month.

I went to Petco and bought a couple of different foods to see how he'd like a change from Fancy Feast and I got some Wellness and Natural Balance. He likes both! I like the Wellness brand better than the other but the venison and sweet potato was a hit. He gobbled that right up. He still wants the illict Temptations treats and black mails me to get them. He won't eat his food if he doesn't have a couple of treats in there at times. I only give them once a day and then only 2 or 3. I hope this doesn't set him back.

4 cases of Fancy Feast is great. Just be sure it isn't the kind with gravy. Read the ingredients. If it has corn or wheat gluten don't feed it. The classic pates don't have that. I refused to buy a food the vet gets a kick back on. Besides, Sam decided he didn't like it after the first day at home. You can feed Friskies too. The pates.
 
You asked if just a few pieces of dry, those treats, could cause a problem ... yes, they can.
If my Shadoe gets just a mouthful of dry pieces, her numbers go very high.
It's best to get rid of them all, and you will get better numbers.

As has been said, those Purina rx foods are working against your getting decent BG numbers.
Fancy Feast and Friskies pates have better ingredients and carbs under 10%.
You feed high carbs, you get high numbers.
 
I figured those damned Temptations were bad. I guess they'll go in the trash. He likes roast beef better anyway. So no more Temptations for Sammy. His PMPS was 520. He had eaten like 1.5 hr before the test. No treats. Canned only.
 
If the PZI lasts up to a year that would be great. Then the cost would be even cheaper per shot/bottle. Are you sure it would last a year, they never said how long one vial would last, I was thinking a month.
Click to expand...

this is copied from the prozinc website under Vet FAQs- lots of good info/studies there if you dig.
the website is http://www.prozinc.us


How do I store PROZINC?
Store in an upright position under refrigeration at 36-46 degrees F (2-8 degrees C). Do not freeze. Protect from light.1

Back to top

How long can a PROZINC vial be used after it is opened?
Although product literature or labels for other insulin products advocate replacing insulin vials every month, there are no special requirements to periodically replace PROZINC once the bottle has been punctured under normal use conditions. PROZINC is a suspension and once mixed has a whitish cloudy appearance. Of course, if discoloration or other abnormal appearances are observed, indicating contamination within the vial, it should be discarded. Loss of insulin activity in the bottle should always be considered whenever clinical symptoms or signs recur, regardless of the amount of insulin in the bottle.4

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What is the expiration date of a vial of PROZINC?
PROZINC carries a two-year shelf life from the date of manufacture.5

Also, for heavens sake- Purina DM and Hills K/D are not the same food- not even the same manufacturer. DM and Friskies and Fancy Feast are all made by Purina

and again, the "as fed" level of Purina DM is 5% carb, so it is an acceptable option, of many, "under 10% carb"
 
Most cats go nuts over freeze dried chicken or salmon treats. They are often in the dog treat aisle. One ingredient, no carbs.

I know people get hot under the collar here about the "prescription diets." I don't feed them either, but let's remember though that Purina DM and Hill KD are 2 different products from 2 different companies. I totally agree on the Hills, the Purina DM sounds good carb wise, but problematic on the fat and phosphorus side.

by Nancy and Cody
Heres the data on Canned purina DM:
  • DM
    According to Janet & Binky
    the new DM (silver top cans) contains
    35% of calories from protein
    60% of calories from fat
    5% of calories from carbohydrate
    262 mg phosphorus/100 calories
Click to expand...

by dustyboy4
I'm quite new to FD, but I did choose to put my cat on the Purina DM. He came directly off of dry cat food and hasn't gone back.
Click to expand...


To Elaine & Dusty:
Hill's K/D canned is around 28% calories from carbs. ........You may never get Dusty well-regulated on Hills K/D.
Click to expand...

Lets not get into a food fight here. FWIW I agree w/ Gayle, homemade raw is the best. If you can't see the whole grinding the bones route, try a complete supplement you just add to the raw meat like Feline Futures, Platinum or one of the others. It's pretty easy that way.
 
awww, temptations aren't really that terrible unless your cat is super super carb sensitive. i still give those as a treat. funny thing is, none of my cats recognize halos or liv-a-littles as food. they just look at them. lol. but other treats are better, like chicken boiled in water or even a lick of yogurt now and then.
 
All of my cats did the same thing with Halo treats, just looked at them like WTF? this is not a food. I did get some FortiFlora to mix in Sam's food when he's getting picky and boy does he love that stuff! I I got it today in the mail and all the cats came sniffing around. I wish I had it when our cat Strider was alive, he succumbed to renal failure.
 
"I must say that the Fancy Feast with the new labels DOES cause Tiggy & Rusty's blood sugar to go high.

All I can say is -- we have to go with what the blood sugar says -- no more Fancy Feast -- which is too bad......

We feed mostly Wellness Chicken or Turkey flavors -- the FF was just an evening snack anyway.
I'm new here, and kind of a lerker....LOL. But I will 100% agree with this statement.

But I've learned alot. My cat Butterscotch was diagnosed with diabetes in August, with a fructosamine of 516. The long and the short of it is that I had an appointment to bring her in to be regulated with insulin, and the appointment had to be put off, but in the meantime I did reading and bought different can cat foods for her to try. ( I immediatly took her off dry bag food ) I researched diffent foods, called manufacturers for carb counts, and checked different lists like Janet and Binky's. I also went out and got some Keto-Diastix. I figured urine testing would make her less upset, and since I wasn't using insulin, a general trend over a few days of her urine glucose was fine for me. But I found the same thing as the above person. Fancy Feast did RAISE her glucose in her urine and I used only the "approved" flavors. ( generally the classics ) I tried a few others, but when I switched to the Wellness Grain-free ( canned chicken or turkey ) her urine glucose dropped like a rock....I use, also, the grain-free healthy indulgence packets. I would suggest anyone who switches and is on insulin to keep a close eye with their blood-glucose test.
Its been over a month now that she has tested negative for any sugar in her urine, so the vets office and I are cautiously optimist that she will not need insulin. Wellness may be expensive, but I figure not having to inject her twice a day is priceless..Now there were other foods out there that looked good, but this worked so I just stopped there, just in case I sounded like an advertisement lol.
:RAHCAT
 
I just put a second litter box liner OVER the cat litter...then kinda smoothed it out. She could still see the litter and did not mind at all. Leaves a nice little puddle, lol. ( I found some cheap ones 40 for $8 )

~J and B~
 
go to a different vet, so many of them don't know jack about the specifics of treating these diseases yet will not admit that they do. In the 5 years tht Fred has been Dx I have been to a bunch of vets (maybe 6--also because when I travelled I would bring him to a vet somewhere else). I knew more about the insulin, the numbers, the food than all of them. Only a couple even advocated that I do the glucose, they ALL have noted how 'good' I am in caring for Fred, shocked when I come in with my data etc. Even now, I don't trust my current vet much--they simply can't be specialists in everything for every kind of animal--and they are not. My vet was insisting that Fred go on 4 heart drugs back in Jan. After the 2nd dose he was practically comatose and wouldn't move. I then consulted a cardiologist who took Fred off 3 of the 4 drugs and Fred did great for 8 months (and at 20 that's a lot--my regular vet was telling me in Jan that he had weeks to live). Fred has just now the past week or so taking a downturn and still trying to figure it out--heart I think. But anyway, geo to a new vet and don't be afraid to question--they all think they know what they are talking about even when they don't.
 
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