Food additive questions if looks ok to give etc..

[Ummlee and Vengeance]

So my pretty newly diagnosed Cat Vengeance has had issues with Crystals twice this year and after the first time put him on a 75% wet food diet ( hes now on a total wet food diet due to the Diabetes) you can read whats been going on here https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/new-to-forum-new-to-cat-with-diabeties-steady-s.239128/

But I had thought of adding back due to hes picky on wet foods and etc a SMALL amount of dry food will prob but in an auto feeder and give very small amounts here ( the dry food is wysong Epigen which is a low carb high protein I called and talked to the company on the percentages etc they gave me 5.5 Carbs and 60% Protein..

the additive in question is their Biotic PH- ( which I bought with the food just havent give any to Venge yet) its a Urine Adicifier which helps with reducing crystals) its a power that you sprinkle on food or mix in.. ( I had been for a while giving him Methigel but that was a fight he HATES the taste of it so I had to hold him down and force in his mouth with a syringe which stressed him and me out so I looked into alternatives (I tried one thing called tinkle tonic for the months after his first bought with crystls and didnt help they came back 3 months later)

so the question of the day is sorry I tend to give lots of info..

does anyone knowledgeable see anything in the ingredients in the additive (adding screen cap of info) that would effect his diabetes or BG and Insulin levels.


Thanks so Much
Lee and Vengeance

 

[Critter Mom]

@JanetNJ - Are Wysong Epigen and Epigen 90 the same thing or two different products?


Mogs
.

 

[JanetNJ]

@JanetNJ - Are Wysong Epigen and Epigen 90 the same thing or two different products?


Mogs
.

There's epigen and epigen 90. They are two different formulas. (Same company) I feed epigen 90 because the ingredients look better, and is higher in protien

 

[Critter Mom]

Hi Lee,

In general, cats are better off on wet food, especially if they have a history of urinary tract issues. Diabetics are better off on a wet diet.

For guidance on urinary tract health and diet, see:

catinfo.org - Urinary tract page

The whole catinfo site is recommended reading: it's one of the best resources for information on cat nutritional requirements on the internet.


Mogs
.

 

[Critter Mom]

@JanetNJ - Thank you!

Another quick question: are they both low carb?


Mogs
.

 

[JanetNJ]

@JanetNJ - Thank you!

Another quick question: are they both low carb?


Mogs
.

The 90 is lower in carb but I think they are both under 10. But, The reg epigen had potato listed in the first few ingredients, plus various veggies: carrot, spinach, kale.... None of that is in the 90 version.

Eta: reg epigen may be medium carb

 

[JanetNJ]

@JanetNJ - Thank you!

Another quick question: are they both low carb?


Mogs
.

Here is the ingredient lists. Top is epigen bottom is epigen 90.

 

[JanetNJ]

You know what... I think the reg epigen may be medium carb.

 

[Ummlee and Vengeance]

The 90 is lower in carb but I think they are both under 10. But, The reg epigen had potato listed in the first few ingredients, plus various veggies: carrot, spinach, kale.... None of that is in the 90 version.

The Person I spoke too at Wysong said the
Epigen 90 is 5.3% carbs 63% Protein 1.4% Phosphorus
Epigen is 5.5% carbs 60% Protein 1.5% Phosphorus

The uretic formula is 12.1% Carb
The Vitality is 24.9% Carb might have these 2 switched cant read my own handwriting on this lol

She said they had changed some ingredients etc that had not made it onto the website and that the newer bags would have the changed info on them..

the kibble I would like put in the auto feeder 1/8th of a cup or so and set at 630am so I didnt have to get up or stay up and feed him can food unless there is a wet food auto feeder or how long could can food be put in there and be safe Ive read 3-4 hrs . Like if I put can food in there at 3am would it be safe for him to eat at 6:30 so it 3.5hrs too close or???

..I hate him not eating for 12 hrs so it would not be a huge amount of food just something to tide him over for another 6 hrs till 12:30 AMPS BG test...

But mostly I am wondering about the BioticPh- additive so that its an extra boost to keeping crystals from forming the more water more acidic the urine the less they form ( I have read up a ton on this since his first time in Feb) that why I switched both cats to can food at meals and the urinary kibble (that was 35.8% carbs that I didnt know) UGHH honestly up until the diabetics never thought about the protein/carbs of cat food..

YES BAD cat dad but most people like me look out for no grains etc great reviews these days and that the cats I had as a kid got meow mix dry food and never saw the vet for anything they never got sick that I cant ever remember (were cats in the 70's and 80's better made lol) my 4 cats I had from 89-97 ( no idea how old 2 of my cats lived etc being my Xwife took them in the Div even they they were MY cats..) 2 of my cats got killed indoor cats got outside at diff times ened up getting into the highway and sadly having no idea what a car or truck was I live down a dirt road off a now major road but back then it was a just busy 2 lane rd.. none of those 4 cats ever had any issues other than a cat cold here and there in the 8 years and they ate just reg cat food back then...

Yet again more about the additive I am fine with not giving any kibble if I can just put can food in an auto feeder it would generally just be for the 6:30 am meal and maybe the 6:30 pm meal unless my life changes and I actually get a life LOL....

 

[Critter Mom]

But mostly I am wondering about the BioticPh- additive so that its an extra boost to keeping crystals from forming the more water more acidic the urine the less they form ( I have read up a ton on this since his first time in Feb)

Urine acidifiers are not without problems, Lee. Problems can occur if the cat's urine is too alkaline (struvite uroliths) or too acidic (oxalate uroliths). Whereas struvite uroliths can be controlled by diet, oxalate uroliths may require surgical removal. This is a helpful article. I used to give my cats what I thought was good quality food complete with 'urinary protection' (i.e. an acidifier). On the previous food one of my cats had a urethral blockage. I thought it would keep them well. Instead, the change in urine pH due to the additives left Saoirse ending up having surgery to remove oxalate uroliths from her bladder.

Following her surgery, Saoirse was prescribed Royal Canin Urinary s/o dry by the vet and was on it for several years. I have been struck by the number of cats who arrive here having been on that diet, so I think it not unreasonable to consider that it may have contributed to her developing pancreatitis and diabetes.

Shortly after the diabetes diagnosis I switched Saoirse to an all-wet, low carb diet and added a little extra water to all her meals. I also checked her urine pH at intervals. She never had any further problems with uroliths. I really do recommend reading the section on the urinary tract at catinfo.org. I wish I had had that information when my little ones were kittens.

FYI, various sources online commonly give the normal feline urinary pH reference range as 6.0-6.5. The online Merck Veterinary Manual gives an even narrower range, 6.3-6.6.

Both the Petsafe 5 and Cat Mate C500 autofeeders can be used to dispense wet food. The Petmate 5 has a space for an ice pack. The Catmate 50 is supplied with two ice packs.

Some people freeze small portions of food and put them into the compartments for the later feeds, and by the time they're dispensed they will have thawed out ready for the cat to eat. Popping an ice cube in with the earlier feeds can keep the food cool and also add some moisture.


Mogs
.

 

[Ummlee and Vengeance]

Urine acidifiers are not without problems, Lee. Problems can occur if the cat's urine is too alkaline (struvite uroliths) or too acidic (oxalate uroliths). Whereas struvite uroliths can be controlled by diet, oxalate uroliths may require surgical removal. This is a helpful article. I used to give my cats what I thought was good quality food complete with 'urinary protection' (i.e. an acidifier). On the previous food one of my cats had a urethral blockage. I thought it would keep them well. Instead, the change in urine pH due to the additives left Saoirse ending up having surgery to remove oxalate uroliths from her bladder.

Following her surgery, Saoirse was prescribed Royal Canin Urinary s/o dry by the vet and was on it for several years. I have been struck by the number of cats who arrive here having been on that diet, so I think it not unreasonable to consider that it may have contributed to her developing pancreatitis and diabetes.

Shortly after the diabetes diagnosis I switched Saoirse to an all-wet, low carb diet and added a little extra water to all her meals. I also checked her urine pH at intervals. She never had any further problems with uroliths. I really do recommend reading the section on the urinary tract at catinfo.org. I wish I had had that information when my little ones were kittens.

FYI, various sources online commonly give the normal feline urinary pH reference range as 6.0-6.5. The online Merck Veterinary Manual gives an even narrower range, 6.3-6.6.

Both the Petsafe 5 and Cat Mate C500 autofeeders can be used to dispense wet food. The Petmate 5 has a space for an ice pack. The Catmate 50 is supplied with two ice packs.

Some people freeze small portions of food and put them into the compartments for the later feeds, and by the time they're dispensed they will have thawed out ready for the cat to eat. Popping an ice cube in with the earlier feeds can keep the food cool and also add some moisture.


Mogs
.

Just Read the articles and the one on catinfo.. Ok so I will forgo the additive (and regular use of any kibble)just get a auto feeder I think the food will be fine being I will only use it for the one meal a day and will put it in right before I go to bed..and then IF I need to not be home in evening at some point I can put food in 2 hrs or so before or if I know will be longer a small small amount of the Epigen 90(wet sitting in there for 2 hrs or so should be fine.. if I used anything cold he would not touch it. He will not even eat any food that has been in the fridge and then I heat it up inside a bag in warm water(Sous vide cat food lol ) wont touch it..

I appreciate all the info and help.. oddly hes the first cat/animal I have ever had that had any major health issues when I was married LONGGG ago in the 90s lol I had 4 cats and 3 dogs none ever had anything major wrong with them nothing that was just a antibiotic shot or pill fix.. Nightwing eats all the same foods etc no problems well that I know of last thing he had was cat pink eye with was 2 years ago thou when he showed up he was close to deaths door with pretty much every infection you can think of and my bleeding heart could not stand to see an animal suffer even when it just walked up on my carport and I had never seen him before then.. and took him to the vet.... he is 4 now and has as much energy and playfulness as a 4 month old which is too much for Venge at times being he want to be ruff and tussle.... he will take off from one side of the house to the other in a blur of fur then up the 8ft tall cat condo in about 1.5 leaps lol Venge thou hes 7 still grew out of that phase when he was like 3 hes been pretty mellow most of the time he does get his spurts of rambunctious which usually ends up with me bleeding.. I was the cat dad with him who played Hand monster and he gets in the mood to do that at times.. which for the past month or so before this all happened he didnt do so I had a feeling something was off.. BUT yesterday he got the look in his eye when was laying on my bed and he went after me so I know hes getting some of his spirit back in him... No lie he scares me when he gets like that also.. he get so serious looking I have to push him back and tell him NOOOOOO yeah I have tried water he likes water he has the habit of getting in the shower with me at times so spray bottle doesn scary him lol... Nightwing I was smart enough to learn my lesson and never played hand monster with him so Im safe from him... Yeah I am rambling lol again thanks for the links and info and all the help.. dont know what I would do without your help and the rest of the people who have chimed in since this started being I was at the breaking point worrying about him and now hes very much himself again.... and I pray he stays on the mend and continues to progress better and better.. I need him to keep me sane or insane or one or the other... lol