First shot need advice.........

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Bandit

Bandit

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Hi,

This morning is supposed to be "first shot" for Bandit. So far not going well.

He's 6 and was feral when we got him. He's a gentle cat, but still has the flee instinct as his default tactic. Dr. thought I'd be able to sneak up on while he was feeding. But with the recent visit to the Vets yesterday he turns and scoots. She's in surgery right now and I've got a call in.

It's not the shot itself that's worrying me, he'll probably hold still if I place him on a table and "just do it". And I'm not squeamish about the injection itself, we practiced at the Vets yesterday. What I am worried about is creating an adversarial and unpleasant precedent to something that might have to become routine (crossing our fingers on remission, but preparing for the long haul).

I fed him, he didn't come out right away, once eating when I approached he high tailed it (no pun intended). He's still wary from yesterday's Vet visit. Now he's under the bed. Since we're trying to get timing down, I might have to wait till tonight for the first dose since the 12hr interval is starting to slip past our schedule.

My thought is this, tonight I get him when it's time to feed and just give him the shot, then feed him. My problem is, if it spooks him he might not eat. If I feed him and approach him, I'm right back to where I am now, and I'll have to play goalie and grab him, giving him an unpleasant association with feeding.

I'm going to get this done, I just don't want to make it harder on my self and him in the interim by not being smart about it.

Thanks for any advice in advance.
 
Lots of us gave them the shot when their face is deep into their breakfast or dinner. Since you get the number before then, it doesn't matter if they get the shot with food. But if he is already nervous about this whole thing, you might try sitting next to him and petting him while he eats, talking to him. Then the next time, give the shot. Some people with a feral cat have had to literally lock themselves in the bathroom with them , wrap them up in a towel and give the shot. But it would be really nice if you were able to give it while he is calm, so I'd keep on working on that.

And it does also involve your having confidence about doing this thing. If you are firm and know that he needs the shot and you will be giving it, that is best. They can sense our insecurity.
 
It might have to be a tad adversarial to start. He needs it, it's gotta happen. He's not the sort that can be soothed into much. He's either in a communal mood or he's not.

While he is skittish he rebounds in a few minutes from most things unpleasant for him. For example he doesn't like the gas grille on the deck. No idea why, but the hiss of the gas, the plume of the flame, send him to one of his safe spots. After I'm done and the back door is closed he generally comes out to check things. Other than something major like the car ride /vet visit, he's more aloof than afraid most of the time. Even when he is finally cornered when in the house and held, he never scratches or bites or squirms, he sort of just gives in. He's a strange combination of independent/solitary, but not combative. It's the initial grabbing him that's the biggest pain. He was physically oblivious to the shot when at the Vets. We did 3 practices with water (distilled?) and there was no reaction what so ever. Because he didn't have a safe spot to go to, he just laid on the exam table with no need for restraint or anything.

He just came out and finished his food, but it's too late to do the first injection.

Tonight I'm going to put out his food, let him eat for a bit, then just grab him and do it. I think he'll go hide for a bit than come out and eat again. I really don't have much of a choice at this point. I need a starting point, to gauge anything.

Thanks for responding, sometimes just bouncing things back and forth makes you think of a course of action.
 
Hey there. Have you ever tried feliaway? It is a pheromone spray which relaxes cats. Maybe try to spray a squirt to the eating area prior to him eating and see if that will relax. Maybe put him there for a minute before you give the food and then just go over and pet him as he eats and then try to sneak the shot it. Maybe that could help. Or try a bit of cat nip prior. It makes my cats "stoned" a bit, very mellow.
 
I have some nip, and it helped with the carrier on the second visit in a couple of days. First was for the testing and diagnosis, the second was for the practice injections. I'll pick up some spray too.

Thanks.
 
Everything went fine.

I let him eat for a few minutes. Crept up slowly, he saw me, I petted him, he didn't scoot, tent, jab, done. He scooted if only because of the sensation, but in less than in a minute he was munching again.
 
Bandit said:
Everything went fine.

I let him eat for a few minutes. Crept up slowly, he saw me, I petted him, he didn't scoot, tent, jab, done. He scooted if only because of the sensation, but in less than in a minute he was munching again.
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Way to go!!!! Good job Daddy bean! ;)
 
Bobbie And Bubba said:
Way to go!!!! Good job Daddy bean! ;)
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Now he doesn't even scoot, he just keeps eating. The wife gave him his shot tonight, so now we can coordinate the 12hr interval. Right now we're just concentrating on that. On the 19th we're doing an all day testing and reporting the numbers via Email to our Vet.

We going to be just fine.
 
Bandit said:
Now he doesn't even scoot, he just keeps eating. The wife gave him his shot tonight, so now we can coordinate the 12hr interval. Right now we're just concentrating on that. On the 19th we're doing an all day testing and reporting the numbers via Email to our Vet.

We going to be just fine.
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That is so nice to hear! Good luck with the testing and keep us posted :)
 
Can we get you to set up your signature. That way when you need some help the peeps here will know a bit about you and bandit. If you look in mine you can see the information that I shared like Bubba's age, when he was diagnosed (DX) what insulin he is on, food we are feeding, the meter used and any thing else you would like to share that can fit in three lines.


In the upper right corner of the screen, within the dark blue bar, you will see ID, Inbox, and Alerts

Click on your ID.

On the left, under Settings, Click on Signature.
This is where you will put information that helps us give you feedback. You are limited to 2 hard returns, so separate pieces by | or -.
This is where you paste the link for your spreadsheet, once it is set up.
Add any other text, such as
your name | cat's name | date of Dx (diagnosis) | insulin | meter
general location (city and state/province)
any other pertinent issues like if there are any food issues, history of DKA, hepatic lipidosis, pancreatitis, allergies, IBD, etc.
Click the Save Changes button at the bottom.

Always click the Save Changes button at the bottom when you have changed anything.

Also, has anyone talked to you about food? We recommend low carb wet food under 10% carbs. Dry foods are too high in carbs. Many of use Fancy Feast CLASSICS, or 9-Lives PATES, Wellness NO GRAIN, just to name a couple. Here's the link and the carbs are in the 3rd column from the left.

foodchart
 
Way to go! Sounds like your Bandit is going to take his shots just fine. I also have a tuxedo kitty, so wonderful you took in a feral cat. Best of luck with the testing and well..everything!
 
Bandit said:
Signature set up, and spread sheet ready.

Bandit from when I got him (lighter for scale):
EDIT:
Is this a reliable source for products? Seems a too good to be true price when compared to other vendors: http://www.countrysidepet.com/alphatrak-2-blood-glucose-meter-starter-kit/

And Thanks again Everyone.
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He is adorable and how precious that you have that video of his youngster days! I don't know about the site you posted someone else will have to weigh in on that.Good job setting up signature and SS!
 
Bobbie And Bubba said:
He is adorable and how precious that you have that video of his youngster days! I don't know about the site you posted someone else will have to weigh in on that.Good job setting up signature and SS!
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He was so small I had to fumigate the fleas blanket style and pick them off of him, direct applications was too toxic for him due to his low weight. But he rebounded quick. There's other videos on that YouTube Channel of mine, but I have a tough time watching them. They're of our long time cat Houdini who passed after 20 years. He would eat anything.

He's better already. This morning he flopped on the bed, purred, and fought with me under the covers, etc. He hadn't done that in weeks. I thought he might be just turning into the laziest cat I've ever had, of course we know now the cause of his lethargy.

I'll do some more research this morning before I order the meter.
 
What an awesome video of little Bandit. Also great job in setting up your signature and spreadsheet.

How to Read a Spreadsheet
Regarding the spreadsheet and how to read it. BJM has a great explanation which is below:


The colored headings at the top are the ranges of glucose values. They are color-coded to clue you in as to meaning and pattern.

Each day is 1 row. Each column stores different data for the day.

From left to right, you enterthe Date in the first column; the AMPS (morning or AM pre-shottest) in the 2nd column and the Units i.e. the dose given in the turquoise column.

Then, there are 11 columns labeled +1 through +11. If you test at +5 (5 hours after the shot), you enter the test number in the +5 column. If you test at +7 (7 hours after the shot), you enter the test number in the +7 columnand so on.

Halfway across the page is the column for PMPS (evening or PM pre-shot test). To the right is another turquoise column for Units i.e. the dose given at the evening shot.

There is second set of columns labeled +1 through +11. If you snag a before bed test at +3, you enter the test number in the +3 column. It is suggested that you test before you go to bed to ensure your kitty is safe for the night.

We separate day and night numbers like that because many cats go lower at night and we want to see the pattern.

The nadir (mid-cycle or somewhere usually between +5 and +7) is the lowest glucose between shots. There is a general period when it will happen which is specific to the insulin being used and testing then helps make sure your cat doesn't go too low. Some insulins like Novolin, Caninsulin and Vetsulin nadir may be at +4.
 
Good job on the spreadsheet. Hurray on getting the shot down! Now for your full fledged membership to the Vampire Club.

While you are waiting for the meter (if I am right you haven't started home testing yet) you might start to desensitize him.

So pick a place. On the counter, between your knees on a towel, on the couch or bed. And always go there. Find a treat he loves: PureBites and Bonito flakes are popular here. And only give it for testing. Take him to the spot first. Pet him. Mess with his ears a little, praise, treat and let him go. Then, add the rice sack (thinnish sock filled with raw rice heated in microwave until very warm). Some people give them a all over rub with it until concentrating on the ears after a few times. But regardless, pet, praise, warm the ears, treat and release. The idea is that by the time you add the poke, they are ready for the treat.

Try the meter on yourself first. See how long you have with the strip and how to insert it. See how the lancet works. If you get the AT, I think it comes with the heavier gauge lancet (25-27 gauge). That size usually gives you a better hole than the 30/31 people use. Put a flashlight behind his ear so you see the vein that runs down the side and the capillaries that run off it to the edge. That's where you want to aim.

Glad he is acting more like himself. That is always great to see!

I don't know about the lower price for the AT. It would sure be nice but I am a little suspicious. I think Abbott is the sole provider? Maybe ask them or your vet?
 
Awww, he was so cute and little, how lucky he found you! He looks very much like my Tuffy, who was a feral barn kitty. Glad to hear he is already feeling better! :bighug:
 

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Bandit said:
Signature set up, and spread sheet ready.

Bandit from when I got him (lighter for scale):
EDIT:
Is this a reliable source for products? Seems a too good to be true price when compared to other vendors: http://www.countrysidepet.com/alphatrak-2-blood-glucose-meter-starter-kit/

And Thanks again Everyone.
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Yes it is reliable and fast. Just got 2 boxes. And like normal Smokey decided he had to use one immediately. I'm ordering 2 more today.

You can also buy on Amazon. That is where I brought the meter. Strips I get from Countryside.
 
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Thanks for the links and advice.

He chased a neighborhood critter or outside cat from window to window last night. Something he hadn't done in a while. I'm 52, my wife isn't far behind me, I had one daughter from my first marriage and she's grow with children of her own, other than that no other children. We're fortunate that we don't have many responsibilities outside of working, and can set up a routine for Bandit. A mini-vaction we were eye-balling has to be put on hold for now. But we've never been big on those hence not having gone on one in long time. We were planning one if only for the "we should get away" factor, because it seemed like something we should do, not something we wanted to do. We're homebodies for the most part, so again this additional step in our routines isn't all that life altering. Just a hiccup. Again we're fortunate that way, I'm sure it's not the same for many others, and I applaud those who do this while juggling other things in life.
 
Bandit said:
Thanks for the links and advice.

He chased a neighborhood critter or outside cat from window to window last night. Something he hadn't done in a while. I'm 52, my wife isn't far behind me, I had one daughter from my first marriage and she's grow with children of her own, other than that no other children. We're fortunate that we don't have many responsibilities outside of working, and can set up a routine for Bandit. A mini-vaction we were eye-balling has to be put on hold for now. But we've never been big on those hence not having gone on one in long time. We were planning one if only for the "we should get away" factor, because it seemed like something we should do, not something we wanted to do. We're homebodies for the most part, so again this additional step in our routines isn't all that life altering. Just a hiccup. Again we're fortunate that way, I'm sure it's not the same for many others, and I applaud those who do this while juggling other things in life.
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Hey Daddy Bean, so nice that Bandit is active again! That is a nice confirmation that he is feeling better. Also, it was nice to hear a little something about you and your wife. I too applaud all those who are juggling at home children, full time jobs and the care of their sugar cat. By the way, what is your name? You could add it to your signature if you'd like.
 
Bobbie And Bubba said:
Hey Daddy Bean, so nice that Bandit is active again! That is a nice confirmation that he is feeling better. Also, it was nice to hear a little something about you and your wife. I too applaud all those who are juggling at home children, full time jobs and the care of their sugar cat. By the way, what is your name? You could add it to your signature if you'd like.
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Normally I'm old school internet, and prefer anonymity. Location, job, marital status etc etc are all universal things one can have in common. A name is a name, I PC gamed with people for 11 years who never knew my real name, and even when it was eventually revealed to them, they never used it. But with Bandit being my forum I.D, I suppose it does get confusing, so it's Kevin
 
Tip using ALPHA TRAC. I put the strip partly in but not so it turns on. Then poke(s). Once I see a drop of blood I finish pushing the strip in to turn on. So by the time (couple of seconds) the meter is ready, I have a good size drop. Oh watch out for the head shakes! Can lose that drop fast.
 
Bandit said:
Normally I'm old school internet, and prefer anonymity. Location, job, marital status etc etc are all universal things one can have in common. A name is a name, I PC gamed with people for 11 years who never knew my real name, and even when it was eventually revealed to them, they never used it. But with Bandit being my forum I.D, I suppose it does get confusing, so it's Kevin
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I understand about the anonymity thing. It'll be good to address you by something other than Bandit's Bean. :)
 
Hi Kevin! Glad to know your name. I understand the old school internet thing...this is really the only place I would use my real name. Honestly, this group has become my family.

Glad to hear Bandit is doing well!
 
Thanks for the tips.

Bandit is oblivious or dare I say it, even expecting of the shot now. AlphaTrak 2 should be here tomorrow, I'm going to do a couple of test in preparation for the big day. Not to mention I'm very curious about his numbers. I can't imagine they are not better, since he is better.
 
We'll be anxious to hear. Have you done some conditioning with treats and heating the ear?

For reference: we generally think of cats being regulated if they are in the mid/lower 200s at pre shot and in double digits at nadir (5-7 hours after the shot) but not below 50, which is nearing hypo range. We suggest new diabetics not get a shot under 200 but stall. Wait 20 minutes without eating and retest to be sure the number is rising, not falling, and over 200. Then consider shooting a smidge less than the previous dose so you don't reproduce the same thing the next cycle.
 
Whoops. Forgot the Alpha Trak, Kevin. So, just as a reference point, add about 30 to those references. We don't have exact correlations for Alpha Trak and our human meters, but that will still give you a general reference. And the low point, at which to pay attention, would be around 68.
 
Having trouble getting blood from the ear. Finally did it about an hour after he ate. 66 on the AlphaTrak2 (a tad low? add 30 is 96) . Either way that's not too bad post meal right?

Sorry I just don't have the brain power right now to correctly comprehend the conversions accurately and post them, it's going to be enough just cornering him (every 2 hours) since the first GB test didn't go thrillingly. I tried last night with no results and laid off as to not spook him too much. Today I finally just removed the protective cover on the spring loaded Lancer and jabbed the vein till I heard a distinct piercing of the skin. Got about two droplets, plenty for the test, but between the snapping of the automatic lancer and holding him down, he's not exactly happy right now. :mad:

I need to run an errand in the interim, and test him when I get back. I'll call my Dr. with the first test number.
 
Welcome to the Vampire Club! . I am hoping it wasn't a pre shot number? 66 is low on an AlphaTrak.

We suggest new diabetics not get a shot under 200, but stall. 20 minutes without feeding and retest. You want to be sure the number is rising, not still falling and over 200. Don't feed during that time as food as that can raise the levels and then you won't have a "true" number. Once you have some data and a better idea of how your cat reacts to the insulin, you can gradually lower that number.

We generally consider a cat regulated if they are in the lower to mid 200s at preshot and double digits at nadir (usually 5-7 hours after the shot) but above 50. At 50 you start paying attention, give a little regular food and retest in 20 minutes or so. If the numbers drop in the 40s, add a teaspoon of gravy off high carb food (do you have a hypo kit?) and retest. You want three rising tests before relaxing.

Remember your levels on AlphaTrak will need to be adjusted for these ranges. Wish we had Those specific guidance a.
 
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Also, for the first 2-3 months, I would occasionally get a lower than expected reading, and it was because there was too little blood on the strip --so it was an error. When I repeated, making sure there was a good sized bead of blood, the reading was more or less what I expected. So I just wanted to put that out there. Also I personally have much better luck not using the spring loaded lancer - just holding the lancet by hand.
 
Having trouble getting blood from the ear. Finally did it about an hour after he ate. 66 on the AlphaTrak2 (a tad low? add 30 is 96) . Either way that's not too bad post meal right
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Forget the "add 30" logic! If you saw a 66 on an Alpha track, you don't need the number going any lower than that. On a human meter, the number would be lower, not higher.

When was this in relation to the shot? Assume there was a shot, how much did you give?
 
Carl & Polly & Bob (GA) said:
Forget the "add 30" logic! If you saw a 66 on an Alpha track, you don't need the number going any lower than that. On a human meter, the number would be lower, not higher.

When was this in relation to the shot? Assume there was a shot, how much did you give?
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2 units
Shot and food are the same time. So about 1hr after food and shot it was a 66. He's come out and I'm going to try another test.
 
Sorry, Kevin, forgot the AlphaTrak. Where are you now? I am glad you fed after the 66 and we're hoping he came up. Please give us some more information. Did you have a preshot number?

Please get another test and let us know. You may need to give him some honey to bring up his levels.
 
Good idea. You don't want the number going lower. You might have to intervene to not let that happen.
 
Just swung by the Drs.

She'd like the same thing, another test then one before his shot tonight. 66 is a tad low, it could be that it's fast reacting with him. He's not showing signs of anything abnormal.
 
I would get that test as soon as possible. 66 is "below normal". Especially that soon after eating and a 2u shot. In theory, Prozinc will keep pushing the numbers down for 5-7 hours in most cats.
 
Bandit said:
Just swung by the Drs. She'd like the same thing, another test then one before his shot tonight. 66 is a tad low, it could be that it's fast reacting with him. He's not showing signs of anything abnormal.
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Hi, Kevin - Another AlphaTrak2/ ProZinc user here. Did your vet get a BG # when you went by there? What was that #? And what was the # your vet got on the day Bandit was diagnosed?

Yes, 66 is too low, and as you got no preshot test before dosing him and this # was an hour after the dose/food, we don't really know where he was at before you shot him. I'd recommend you give him a little more food now. Please be aware that some cats do not exhibit symptoms of hypoglycemia - so when you've seen a # this low after a dose, is best to go by BG#s, rather than by any textbook-type list of hypo symptoms.

You just had your first lesson in "why you should always test BG before shooting insulin." (Most of us have been there, too.)
 
Thanks, Robin. Another set of eyes is a good thing.
 
Hi Kevin,

Can you please clarify (in case I missed it, sorry...) exactly how long ago you gave the shot? Please tell us in hours rather the actual time because we're in different time zones.

And regarding symptoms of low blood glucose: Some cats show no symptoms at all until the 'hypoglycemia' is quite advanced. So don't let the 'absence of symptoms' fool you. Be guided by the numbers. If the numbers are low, take action to raise or stabilise them, even if there are no symptoms of low blood glucose. As we say around here, "Better too high for a day than too low for a minute."

You're doing a great job. And you certainly won't be the first person here who perfected their hometesting skills because their cat was in low numbers. In fact, you're in very good company. ;)

Eliz
 
I added the "911" icon to make sure people see this thread. I'll show you how to do that later in case it happens in the future.
 
As you can guess, we're all waiting to hear what kind of a # you get with that next BG test (which I hope you've managed to get.)
Don't have to read the rest of this post right now ... let's concentrate on getting that BG test result, ok?

I know how hard it can be to get a feral-rescue to cooperate with you at test-time, Kevin. Bat-Bat was rescued @ age 1 month, and is still very "fractious." But that said, I have managed, with gentle persuasion, to get her to be much more cooperative. And rest assured, there are few nerve endings in the edges of a kitty's ear, so is more like a mosquito bite to a cat (rather than the often-searing pain of pricking your fingertip, where there are lots of nerves).

I asked about the BG# your vet got on Bandit at diagnosis because cats (and especially ferals, I think) can spike #s much higher than usual in a vet clinic: called "stress hyperglycemia." (Even 100+ pts or more.) Which underscores the importance of home-testing before an insulin shot: Without a preshot #, you are shooting the insulin - quite literally - in the dark. While some vets actually discourage home-testing, that's just ludicrous: What doctor would prescribe insulin for a human diabetic and tell them they don't need to check their blood glucose before they inject a dose? Not a one!

Our goal here is to help you get your diabetic kitty's BG regulated safely; that's why we're all so glad that you've started testing! And here's a little more good news for you: You may even find that Bandit's next preshot BG# is really not nearly as high as it was at the vet's office. And wouldn't that be wonderful!:)
 
I didn't take Bandit to the Drs (today), just stopped by for advice from her.

7:00am feeding and Shot (2 units):

BG test at about 9:15 of 66.

Unsuccessful attempt at getting reading at about 2:00pm. Couldn't get it to blood up this time.

I just feed him half a can of food (2:42pm) because of the low numbers.

Will attempt a preshot test at 7pm tonight and perhaps another one soon since he's out from under the bed eating, and his angst is subsiding.

Original number day of diagnosis 400.
 
Bandit said:
I just feed him half a can of food (2:42pm) because of the low numbers.
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Good. I'm glad you gave him some food, Kevin. That 1/2 can certainly did the trick - and great job in getting that test! :)
(How did Bandit react this time around?)
 
Ok, that's actually a good thing. It looks like the food pushed up his numbers. Part if it is also probably a "bounce" - his body's response to experiencing a low number earlier in the cycle. They may go higher, but that's no big deal.
 
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