Feliway/Comfort Zone/Flower Essences for bullying?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Stephanie&Willy

Stephanie&Willy

Active Member
I don’t know much about cat behavior…

I have a multi-cat household; we have 3 cats and a dog. My youngest cat (Zell) bullies my oldest cat (Rasta) and myself (literally). Rasta is shy and sometimes anxious. Zell will try to resource guard, steal Rasta’s “spots”, chase Rasta into hiding, fixate on/stare at/intimidate Rasta, and pounce on Rasta. We do our best to break Zell’s fixation or to stop him when we notice he is going to pounce/chase. I’m not sure if Zell is a bully, specifically, or if he’s just acting dominate towards an “easy target.”

We think Zell has a lack of respect, possibly a result of being pulled from his mother/litter at too young of an age. We adopted him as an owner surrender from the human society at 6 months old so we don’t really know.

His behavior is not constant, it comes and goes but it will often last several days to a week when it starts. All my pets are neutered, all are male. All my cats are indoor only cats. To my knowledge, none of my cats spray.

We play with Zell daily, figuring a tired kitty is a well behaved kitty and he spends a lot of time playing on his own. The more we play when he begins to bully, the faster it seems to escalates. Occasionally Rasta provokes him, but this is not always the case. He gets along very, very well with Willy and usually leaves the dog and my DH alone.

In general, there isn’t too much turmoil in the house and it isn’t really severe “fighting” in the first place. It’s mostly Zell bugging/intimidating/stressing Rasta out but Rasta is older and I want him to be comfortable.

Has anyone used Feliway, Comfort Zone, or Flower Essences to help with a bully cat? In my searches, I can find reviews for these products relating to spraying/inappropriate elimination and scratching. I can also find a general “is good for…” but I am having a hard time finding reasonable, real personal experience feedback specific to inter-kitty bullying or aggression.

Any other suggestions are also welcome!
 
Stephanie&Willy said:
I don’t know much about cat behavior…

I have a multi-cat household; we have 3 cats and a dog. My youngest cat (Zell) bullies my oldest cat (Rasta) and myself (literally). Rasta is shy and sometimes anxious. Zell will try to resource guard, steal Rasta’s “spots”, chase Rasta into hiding, fixate on/stare at/intimidate Rasta, and pounce on Rasta. We do our best to break Zell’s fixation or to stop him when we notice he is going to pounce/chase. I’m not sure if Zell is a bully, specifically, or if he’s just acting dominate towards an “easy target.”

We think Zell has a lack of respect, possibly a result of being pulled from his mother/litter at too young of an age. We adopted him as an owner surrender from the human society at 6 months old so we don’t really know.

His behavior is not constant, it comes and goes but it will often last several days to a week when it starts. All my pets are neutered, all are male. All my cats are indoor only cats. To my knowledge, none of my cats spray.

We play with Zell daily, figuring a tired kitty is a well behaved kitty and he spends a lot of time playing on his own. The more we play when he begins to bully, the faster it seems to escalates. Occasionally Rasta provokes him, but this is not always the case. He gets along very, very well with Willy and usually leaves the dog and my DH alone.

In general, there isn’t too much turmoil in the house and it isn’t really severe “fighting” in the first place. It’s mostly Zell bugging/intimidating/stressing Rasta out but Rasta is older and I want him to be comfortable.

Has anyone used Feliway, Comfort Zone, or Flower Essences to help with a bully cat? In my searches, I can find reviews for these products relating to spraying/inappropriate elimination and scratching. I can also find a general “is good for…” but I am having a hard time finding reasonable, real personal experience feedback specific to inter-kitty bullying or aggression.

Any other suggestions are also welcome!
Click to expand...

I just gave this link to someone in the levemir forum so it was handy. I am sorry I don't have personal experience but I know a very well known vet, Dr. Jean Hofve, of LittleBigCat.com recommends the spirit essences. She doesn't sell them herself but refers people to this site:

http://www.spiritessence.com/?actio...=species&val=cats&cat2=category&val2=behavior

It looks like they sell a combo pack as well as the one for bully's.

If you decide to try them, please let us know if it works!
 
Hi Stephanie&Willy - you can also try Rescue Remedy.....or Bach flower essences. I'm copying an e-mail from a friend who runs a local rescue and specializes in helping people solve behavioral problems: "Bach Flower Remedies - You can match them to the cats' personality and situation and mix as many as four together in an ounce of spring water. Health food stores sell Bach Flower Remedies. There are other flower remedies, but I've only used Bach so I can't tell you how to use the others or what to expect. With the Bach remedies, I like to put a couple of drops on a fingertip and rub them into the fur on top of the cat's head between the ears several times a day. If your friend chooses the right remedies, they should work. I think I'd concentrate on the timid cat. Even Rescue Remedy, which is simple to use, could make the timid more brave.

This website is good for describing which remedies to use: http://www.a-house-full-of-cats.com/bac ... edies.html.
Also, http://www.rainbowcrystal.com/bach/floweran.html.

I suggested using the Walnut Bach essence to one of my friends whose cat started bullying her boyfriend's cat when they moved in together......I told her to add it to their water, but I should have had her add it directly to their ears. Anyway, it took a few weeks but she gradually began to see changes and now they don't have to put barricades up anymore when they aren't home, and 'Bob' has stopped living in the closet : )

Good luck! It's tough getting them to get along sometimes......luckily all of ours do get along, however we foster cats and occasionally get one (like right now!) who doesn't play well in the sandbox......
 
http://www.bachflower.com/Pets.htm
http://www.petsynergy.com/flower.html

I got the feliway/comfort zone on amazon

So basically there are 2 things that contribute. Yes, Zell might be a bully, but also, Rasta may be naturally submissive. Sometimes that submissiveness inspires the dominant cat to act worse to the submissive cat. You may also have a difference in play style /energy. When you play with Zell, the bullying gets worse because he wants to play more, and Rasta doesnt want to. He knows that Willy will just say...go away. Rasta may be too submissive to tell Zell off.

You obviously want to break it up carefully (no hands in the middle) with a box/towel on Zell if theres bloodshed but it doesnt sound like its that bad. Sometimes, even tho its hard to see, the best thing is to let them work it out.

When you are tense and upset about it when it happens, both cats feel that, and feel something is wrong. They dont know what, and they associate the "wrong" feeling with each other, which fuels the bullying. For example, if Zell wants to play more and have more of your attention after you have stopped playing with him, he knows that he can get your attention (negative to be sure) by pouncing on poor Rasta.

Try rewarding Zell when he is behaving well with Rasta in the room, try to ignore him when he bothers Rasta (unless theres bloodshed obviously).

I used the flower essences for Janeway when she was so stubborn about Merlyns introduction. It wasnt bloodshed either, just she was so insecure and hissing all the time. I cant say that the flower essences or feliway diffuser helped but they cant hurt. I would not use rescue remedy for this situation.. try to find the individual essences or a group of essences that would be appropriate.
For Janeway I decided on

Tiger Lily
This remedy helps with aggression and animals that tend to bite and snap. It helps them release aggression and be less hostile, and opens them up to learning to co-operate with others. (FES)
Walnut
This is an extremely useful remedy for any time of transition, such as moving house, becoming pregnant, adjusting to new animals or family members, or going to a new situation. (Bach)
Willow
This remedy helps with resentment and bitterness and often helps cats that urinate everywhere, due to a change in the household, such as the arrival of another animal or a baby. (Bach)

Many health food stores sell essences and I know that Whole Foods has them as well.
This store in San Francisco will do mail order by phone
http://scarletsageherb.com/
but you can probably find other online sources as well. The best known essences are the original Bach essences and FES essences.
 
Thank you everyone!

Pamela and Tigger

I appreciate the link! I am going to look into them for sure, I am very open and interested in these sorts of products and would have jumped on board sooner but I haven’t heard about these things until I joined this board! I am very open to whatever options are out there and I would love to do a mini-review for whatever I choose to get and how it works for my guys.

Hollybee (I’m sorry, I don’t know your name :oops: )

That is very interesting, I will look into it tonight. Do you think I could try to find these at as essences/oils at a homeopathic shop or organic market or do I need to go through this site? We have several nearby that are fairly decent. I would make sure they are safe for consumption and do not contain any outside or additional ingredients that are sometimes found in these sorts of things.

Lisa and Merlyn,

Thank you for the insight into the playing, I never thought about it. Is there something you could recommend? I don’t want to stop playing with him (otherwise he is up all night yowling @-) ) but I also don’t want to do anything to encourage him to harass Rasta. You’re correct, it’s not really physical aggression. He chases him or pounces on him, they exchange 1-2 swats, and they are done for awhile. We haven’t had a fight occur.

Rasta is naturally submissive but he’s also quite timid. He spooks easily (much less than he used to, though). I know it’s not completely Zell, we’ve actually caught Rasta doing things to PROVOKE Zell because (before we realized) it ended up in Zell getting stopped in some way. ohmygod_smile :lol: Usually he was picked up and moved to another room (not closed in or anything) but admittedly, (before we knew what was actually going on) we would spray him or make a loud noise. I should mention, we only spray a small amount at the body to avoid them somehow breathing it in or getting it in their ears.

He actually used to put Zell in his place but he’s getting older. He still stands up for himself as needed when Zell chases him but he doesn’t seem to do well with the “psychological” bullying. :sad: Zell will often stare him down like he’s going to pounce at any second for 30min to an hour at a time… being in “fight or flight” that long cannot feel good. The issue is, the only way to stop Zell is to break his concentration. We generally do this by picking him up and moving him or spraying him (slightly) with water.

Zell used to try to get him to leave his food bowl (very successfully) simply by staring at him. We started spraying Zell to get him out of the kitchen when he finished his food so now waits in the other room automatically and grooms himself until Rasta is done. We also don't baby Rasta, we won't give him food if he doesn't come into the kitchen to eat and he has to walk by Zell to get there and leave. If he gets spooked and leaves before he finishes, he has to wait until morning to eat again (this is out of necessity for Willy). We recently added a hard, rubber-type dog ball to Zell's bowl so he actually finishes AFTER Rasta now and it’s seeming to resolve this issue completely (which was the worst one).

They have never gotten into fight that it needs to be broken up by us. We’re lucky in that area. My dog (who is smaller than they are, lol) is a Lhasa and he takes his guard dog duties very serious. When he hears (or maybe feels, you never know with animals) tension brewing he will promptly break it up by running over to them and whining. If that doesn’t stop them, he will let out a few (loud) barks. They completely stop and go their separate ways, they don’t even respond like this to us making a loud noise.

I will pass on the information to my DH to ignore the bad behavior, hopefully it will extinguish over time. I understand the negative energy and association thing, that makes a lot of sense. I am just worried about Rasta because the (psychological) bullying REALLY seems to stress him out. :sad: Even if it doesn’t stop, I would just like to help him to feel less stressed when Zell is around. If he gains confidence or the bullying stopped, that would just be icing on the cake.
 
Hi Stephanie, I am not on here much unfortunately......I have a diabetic foster kitty (miss Alex Olivia - now OTJ!) and was guided towards this forum to help her.....I wish I had more time to get on here, so when I do have the chance I try to see if there is anything I can contribute since so many people helped me :smile:

Good luck with getting everyone happy! The foster we are keeping separate for this reason figured out last night how to open the door to get out of the office we keep her in (which is a large room)....never a dull moment!
 
I have a calming collar on 3 of my 4 cats.
One, the oldest and smallest, is vicious; the collar greatly cut down on her nastiness.
Shadoe has one because she is very territorial and does not like Ollie, and likes Apple even less. The collar has made Shadoe more tolerant of the others, provided they keep a bit of distance.
Apple has one because she is a crazy kitten who seems to want to be Shadoe's friend. The collar may have helped her a bit as well, but who can tell with a kitten.
Ollie does not need any relaxing as he is part 3-toed sloth.

Calming Collar for Cats

The diffusers may be OK in an area but the collar moves around with the cat so it's better I think.
 
Keep playing with Zell!!! But if you stop a play session and notice hes bullying Rasta dont pay attention.

Also, you might try the Dual Toy approach and while you play with Zell with one toy, play with Rasta with a toy in the other hand -or have another household member or friend play with Rasta.

Another thing you can do is to stash toys in all areas of the house, on your person.. then when you see Zell about to bully Rasta you redirect with toys. Sounds like you have tried some redirection..but be careful! If Zell is already bullying Rasta and you get a toy out you are rewarding Zell instead of redirecting him.

Play with Rasta more, sometimes you just need to find what toy he likes.. playing helps cats that are shy with people build confidence so it might help Rasta feel more confident.
 
Gayle and Shadoe said:
I have a calming collar on 3 of my 4 cats.
One, the oldest and smallest, is vicious; the collar greatly cut down on her nastiness.
Shadoe has one because she is very territorial and does not like Ollie, and likes Apple even less. The collar has made Shadoe more tolerant of the others, provided they keep a bit of distance.
Apple has one because she is a crazy kitten who seems to want to be Shadoe's friend. The collar may have helped her a bit as well, but who can tell with a kitten.
Ollie does not need any relaxing as he is part 3-toed sloth.

Calming Collar for Cats

The diffusers may be OK in an area but the collar moves around with the cat so it's better I think.
Click to expand...

I tried one of those with Callie. Unfortunately, with her it did not help. But as we know, ECID.
 
Doh! I am willing to try just about anything. Zell won't wear a collar though (he completely panics and starts running panicked all over the house and until he finally dives under furniture and attempts to pull the collar off).

Zells resource guarding is getting a lot worse, Rasta seems very upset about it today and had an accident in the corner. Rasta tried to get over to the litter box and Zell went immediately into stalking mode (until Rasta moved toward the box, Zell didn't care that he was out and moving around). After several failed attempts he went to use the corner again so I intervened. I gently put him in the bathroom (which has a box) to decompress. He wasn't happy to be picked up but once we got into the bathroom and the door was closed he seemed quite happy. He was rubbing on me and exploring (he doesn't do this normally). Once I was sufficiently convinced that he was ok with being in there, I left him to have some safe time alone. (we have 4 boxes that I clean several times a day, I guess I need to try and fit a box in the living room-- in that corner, I was hoping it wouldn't come to that because I really don't have the room)

I was actually playing with Zell and Rasta last night before I read this! I had Zell chasing a laser around and Rasta was messing with a feather thing from underneath the sofa. Rasta just recently started playing again. He has a handful of toys under the sofa (which is kinda high off the ground) and in/around his bed that only he likes.
 
I've also had a cat with behavioural issues. The one thing that I had to be very careful of when playing was stimulating the stalking/preying drive. A behavourist that I consulted suggested more fetching, running and jumping type of activities. She suggested feather on a stick so that the cat jumps and runs after it rather than stalking and pouncing. Also chasing balls and other non-natural toys - no mice or furry things. I also got a shoe box and made 2 arm-sixed holes, taped on the lid, and put a few kibbles in at a time. This also served as a distraction. Just a few other ideas.
 
Thanks for the additional ideas about play--- Zell (the bully) LOVES LOVES LOVES to play fetch and he's really good at it. He loves the balls that are slightly rubbery/foamy (he used to love the pom pom ones until he discovered these).


I am looking at the Spirit Essences and I am hopeful. We have a place that will mix things in town. I am looking at Bully Remedy, Peacemaker, Self-esteem remedy, and Scaredy Cat. I need to sit down and look to see what is in each thing and see exactly what would be best for our situation.

I am really liking the Bully remedy for Zell. It contains Chicory. I found a description for it's indication on the Bach site which says:
possessive in nature, very territorial. Manipulatively loving to keep control.

The manipulative loving is something he does to everyone in the house! I never thought about it as a control issue but after thinking about it that's what it seems like (control of resources, affection, he is meticulously groomed but not to the point that he is missing fur or anything but if you touch him wrong or he gets wet he stops what he's doing and grooms, etc.)

I think I will also try the feliway/comfort zone as well.

Thank you so much for you help everyone! I am learning a lot of really interesting information!
 
Stephanie,
I feel like I am reading my own story. I've been through the same issues.
I did use Spirit Essences for awhile and they seemed to help some. I would highly recommend calling and talking to the owner on which ones to get. I called when they seemed to be losing their effectiveness and it was because I was only putting it in the water. Once I started rubbing it on them things seemed to calm down more. I know I used Bully Remedy and self-esteem. I also found them through Dr. Jean Hofve from Littlebigcat.com.
As Sophie (Bully) gets older it is getting better, but the spirit essences helped when it was really bad. I also would put some on their collars as well.
I think one of the best techniques for me was kenneling Sophie. I found she would always do most of her attacking within the first 2 hours after eating or bully her way into Kona’s (submissive one) food. She almost acted like a child given a whole bag of candy….sugar rush! So I started feeding her in her kennel and leaving her in there for a few hours afterwards. This gives Kona her alone time to roam the house knowing that Sophie isn’t around every corner to attack and gives her some peace using the litterbox. Now that things have calmed down enough I no longer need the Spirit Essences, but I still do kennel Sophie twice a day at feeding times.
Hope this helps,
CJ
 
CJ-
Thank you for sharing your experience with me! I am not expecting a complete or dramatic turn around, but I am hoping that maybe it will take the edge off and make the situation slightly more stable so it's easier to implement other potential solutions and know if they are working or totally failing (it would be hard to judge that if things keep on being random like they are now). I am going to try to start a log of all the "incidents" so I can figure out when they are most often occurring and if they are triggered by anything. Based on that I may try to kennel Zell for a few hours or possibly put Rasta in a room to decompress for a few hours, depending.

Thanks again!
 
See if your library or bookstore has this book: Starting from Scratch by Pamela Johnson-Bennett. She is a professional feline behaviorist and has many good ideas. Its a wonderful home reference.

Make sure there a enough litterboxes - # of cats + 1 is recommended - so that if one is blocked, another is available.

Have boxes and levels to climb on, so the timid cat can find safe locations to relax.

You might try distraction techniques to keep Zell diverted - ie if you see him ramping up, throw the ball.

You might start picking up Rasta and cuddling him if Zell is being obnoxious - negative reinforcement (you don't do that when Zell doesn't attack)

Some other tips for environment and behavior from Ohio State College of Veterinary Medicine Indoor Pet Initiative which has sections for cats and dogs.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top