feeding the curve/Drevon

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jayla-n-Drevon

Member Since 2015
Hi--
So I have been experimenting with feeding the curve on Drevon to try to avoid those big drops and have a longer time in healthy numbers.:D

He has been eating better (anti jinx) the past few days so that helps-
Happy/playful/purr/pee/poo/pester:confused::rolleyes:

I am giving him many varieties of food but pre shot I am going with closer to a 8% instead of the 4% carb-
It looks like it is holding him a bit higher or the same longer and then he starts dropping.
He eats about 1/2 a can of the 8% and about 1/4 of the 4%.
I have all the varieties (flavors)of Ziwi Peak coming tomorrow-

Just looking for experienced eyes as to if this is a good pattern or if I should keep manipulating and what I should aim for-
When I was giving the 4% carb I had to give HC at +2 ish-
I have not had to do that since increasing the pre shot carbs-
Since his recent failed reduction I am really trying to figure this out for him...

suggestions /advice appreciated and welcome...:bighug::cat::bighug:
 
More carbs doesn't always mean higher BG. With some cats feeding a slightly higher carb food can produce lower BG numbers. Also, sometimes BG levels can be spiked by certain ingredients in the food if the cat is sensitive to them (beef being a common offender). Best way I know of to determine how different foods affect a cat's BG levels is to do little food trials for each variety fed. Other members may be able to give you more pointers, Jayla.


Mogs
.
 
More carbs doesn't always mean higher BG. With some cats feeding a slightly higher carb food can produce lower BG numbers. Also, sometimes BG levels can be spiked by certain ingredients in the food if the cat is sensitive to them (beef being a common offender). Best way I know of to determine how different foods affect a cat's BG levels is to do little food trials for each variety fed. Other members may be able to give you more pointers, Jayla.


Mogs
.
Hi Mogs--
This is so frustrating--
I gave only LC last night with a pre shot of 166-he ate pretty good and at +2/144
I thought he would surf--then BAM 66 /+3 AT
This is why I was giving a little HC at either ps or +2 etc....
I am getting conflicted advice as to let him drop or to stop the below 68 drop--
I don't know how long those higher carbs stay in his system and he is on diet-
So of course the am is the bounce.... which I would probably not have if I had given some MC or HC.
My BF says let him drop and he is much ore relaxed about "lets see what happens" but I know he will just be high the next day.
He says he is high the next day from he HC I gave to bring him up-
I gave a little HC Sunday with a ps of 196 and he was is in decent blues all day-
:banghead::banghead::banghead:
 
I am a bit confused on the method of your "feeding the curve". Maybe that is the process that someone gave you, but it is not the typical way to feed a curve by giving the higher carb food at shot time. To "feed the curve", the only time you should feed the higher carb food is during the cycle when you see the drop starting. You feed to slow the drop and get them to surf. If you feed the higher carb food at shot time, you are more likely to abort the cycle or give them a higher rise before the insulin kicks in and have a steeper drop when the food wears off and the insulin kicks in. So you'd test at +1 and +2 to look for the drop. If you see one you feed some mid-carb food. If you do not see a large drop, you continue to feed the normal low carb food. That way you aren't always pushing the cat away from getting into good numbers. You aren't looking to avoid green altogether, you are looking to slow fast drops that might result in a bounce.

This is copied from the thread where Jill and Alex explains the process in detail.
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/8-10-tashie-pmps-high-questions.101989/

what is meant by using food to manipulate the curve?
simply put, it's a method of feeding used to prevent kitty from dropping too fast and/or too low.
the amount of food usually fed to the cat is broken down into several mini-meals fed throughout the course of the day with the intention of flattening out the curve. lc is normally fed to all numbers except possibly in the case of a significant or fast drop or fed to a drop below 50.

the only time you might want to feed a little higher carb food at shot time is to bump the numbers up so the insulin is starting from a higher number when onset occurs if you're running out the door and will be unable to monitor.

if you're around to monitor, there's no reason to bump the numbers up at shot time. the beauty of lantus and levemir is being able to shoot low to stay low. shooting low is how you obtain the low flat curve with lantus and levemir.

whether you'd want to feed lc, mc, or hc to slow a drop depends on two things:
1. the carb sensitivity or lack of of your particular cat.
2. the point you're at in the cycle. a drop early in the cycle *may* require big guns. a drop at nadir (unless nadir is less than 40) or late in the cycle usually only requires lc to bump the numbers up. however, if you have a carb sensitive kitty, you may not have to use anything except lc to bump up the numbers. "KNOW THY CAT".

why would you want to manipulate the curve with food?
--- bouncers: kitties who drop low and then bounce to the moon benefit from food manipulation. using food to manipulate the curve will tend to flatten out the curve. flattening out the curve helps to prevent huge bounces.
--- carb sensitive kitties: kitties who experience large food spikes when consuming even lc benefit from manipulating the curve with food. strategically spacing out meal times will help flatten out the curve.

why do i want to use food to flatten out the curve ?
--- flattening out the curve allows you to get as much insulin into the cat as safely possible without having kitty bottom out on you.
--- flattening out the curve *usually* allows you to hang onto a dose longer
--- flattening out the curve allows you to shoot higher doses of insulin than you would have been able to otherwise.

why would i want to get as much insulin as possible into the cat?
lantus and levemir are known to have a harder time bringing down higher numbers. more insulin helps bring down the higher numbers in a bouncer's cycle. more insulin will help counteract the spikes in a food spiker. using food to manipulate the curve will flatten out the curve and help keep your kitty safe.


when using food to manipulate the curve, i generally recommend starting with dividing up the normal amount of food your kitty should be eating into 8 mini-meals to be fed at preshot, +1, +2, and +3 of each cycle. however, that recommendation is strictly a starting point. a plan customized for YOUR cat is YOUR goal. frequent testing and learning how YOUR cat responds not only to food, but to the insulin itself will help you tweak the plan.
Edited to add on 11/13/2015:
I was referring to manipulating the curve when using Lantus in the paragraph above.
Levemir typically has a later onset (usually around +4) and a later nadir. To accommodate the difference, when using Levemir one might start with dividing up the normal amount of food kitty should be eating into 8 mini-meals beginning at shot time, +3, +6, and +7 of each cycle. However, that recommendation is strictly a starting point. A plan customized for YOUR cat is YOUR goal. Frequent testing and learning how YOUR cat responds not only to food, but to the insulin itself will help you tweak the plan.


a quote that goes along with this subject from Libby/Lucy found in one of Mocha's Lantus condos:

"carb manipulation is more about learning what your cat's response is to varying amounts of carbs at different times during the cycle, and using that information to your advantage. Learn how many points bump she gets from LC, MC, and HC, both early in the cycle and later in the cycle. Use that information to guide her cycles the way you want them to go. Mocha's AM and PM cycles are very different, so the best feeding times for her might not be the same in each cycle. Take the amount you would feed her over the 12 hour period, divide it into 3-4 meals, and experiment with when to feed them. Whatever changes you make, write them in your spreadsheet and hold it for at least 3-4 days to see if it is changing anything. Mocha drops later at night than she does during the day, so your food schedule might need to be different at night.
 
I am a bit confused on the method of your "feeding the curve". Maybe that is the process that someone gave you, but it is not the typical way to feed a curve by giving the higher carb food at shot time. To "feed the curve", the only time you should feed the higher carb food is during the cycle when you see the drop starting. You feed to slow the drop and get them to surf. If you feed the higher carb food at shot time, you are more likely to abort the cycle or give them a higher rise before the insulin kicks in and have a steeper drop when the food wears off and the insulin kicks in. So you'd test at +1 and +2 to look for the drop. If you see one you feed some mid-carb food. If you do not see a large drop, you continue to feed the normal low carb food. That way you aren't always pushing the cat away from getting into good numbers. You aren't looking to avoid green altogether, you are looking to slow fast drops that might result in a bounce.

This is copied from the thread where Jill and Alex explains the process in detail.
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/8-10-tashie-pmps-high-questions.101989/

what is meant by using food to manipulate the curve?
simply put, it's a method of feeding used to prevent kitty from dropping too fast and/or too low.
the amount of food usually fed to the cat is broken down into several mini-meals fed throughout the course of the day with the intention of flattening out the curve. lc is normally fed to all numbers except possibly in the case of a significant or fast drop or fed to a drop below 50.

the only time you might want to feed a little higher carb food at shot time is to bump the numbers up so the insulin is starting from a higher number when onset occurs if you're running out the door and will be unable to monitor.

if you're around to monitor, there's no reason to bump the numbers up at shot time. the beauty of lantus and levemir is being able to shoot low to stay low. shooting low is how you obtain the low flat curve with lantus and levemir.

whether you'd want to feed lc, mc, or hc to slow a drop depends on two things:
1. the carb sensitivity or lack of of your particular cat.
2. the point you're at in the cycle. a drop early in the cycle *may* require big guns. a drop at nadir (unless nadir is less than 40) or late in the cycle usually only requires lc to bump the numbers up. however, if you have a carb sensitive kitty, you may not have to use anything except lc to bump up the numbers. "KNOW THY CAT".

why would you want to manipulate the curve with food?
--- bouncers: kitties who drop low and then bounce to the moon benefit from food manipulation. using food to manipulate the curve will tend to flatten out the curve. flattening out the curve helps to prevent huge bounces.
--- carb sensitive kitties: kitties who experience large food spikes when consuming even lc benefit from manipulating the curve with food. strategically spacing out meal times will help flatten out the curve.

why do i want to use food to flatten out the curve ?
--- flattening out the curve allows you to get as much insulin into the cat as safely possible without having kitty bottom out on you.
--- flattening out the curve *usually* allows you to hang onto a dose longer
--- flattening out the curve allows you to shoot higher doses of insulin than you would have been able to otherwise.

why would i want to get as much insulin as possible into the cat?
lantus and levemir are known to have a harder time bringing down higher numbers. more insulin helps bring down the higher numbers in a bouncer's cycle. more insulin will help counteract the spikes in a food spiker. using food to manipulate the curve will flatten out the curve and help keep your kitty safe.


when using food to manipulate the curve, i generally recommend starting with dividing up the normal amount of food your kitty should be eating into 8 mini-meals to be fed at preshot, +1, +2, and +3 of each cycle. however, that recommendation is strictly a starting point. a plan customized for YOUR cat is YOUR goal. frequent testing and learning how YOUR cat responds not only to food, but to the insulin itself will help you tweak the plan.
Edited to add on 11/13/2015:
I was referring to manipulating the curve when using Lantus in the paragraph above.
Levemir typically has a later onset (usually around +4) and a later nadir. To accommodate the difference, when using Levemir one might start with dividing up the normal amount of food kitty should be eating into 8 mini-meals beginning at shot time, +3, +6, and +7 of each cycle. However, that recommendation is strictly a starting point. A plan customized for YOUR cat is YOUR goal. Frequent testing and learning how YOUR cat responds not only to food, but to the insulin itself will help you tweak the plan.


a quote that goes along with this subject from Libby/Lucy found in one of Mocha's Lantus condos:

"carb manipulation is more about learning what your cat's response is to varying amounts of carbs at different times during the cycle, and using that information to your advantage. Learn how many points bump she gets from LC, MC, and HC, both early in the cycle and later in the cycle. Use that information to guide her cycles the way you want them to go. Mocha's AM and PM cycles are very different, so the best feeding times for her might not be the same in each cycle. Take the amount you would feed her over the 12 hour period, divide it into 3-4 meals, and experiment with when to feed them. Whatever changes you make, write them in your spreadsheet and hold it for at least 3-4 days to see if it is changing anything. Mocha drops later at night than she does during the day, so your food schedule might need to be different at night.
Thank you
Here is a example
Dre was 144 @+2 last night
Acting fine
Tested +3/66
Usually I can tell it will be active by +2 but this was completely out of the blue and he ate a good size low carb meal at pre shot
He started looking for food then and came up
Just frustrating.
I don't like giving high carb but the low does nothing to bring him up and then the bouncing
Which he has been clearing quicker. I keep questioning if I should have gave a tsp of HC at +2. But who knew ?
 
Sometimes they will drop suddenly on us, even when they start out looking just fine. It may be a sign of too much insulin and we end up going down in dose, getting things situated, then going back up with a flatter curve and then earning a reduction that sticks better. Its all about finding what works out to flatten the curve. Because they are cats, they don't always cooperate with us ;)

I think you might be better off feeding a +1 or +2 LC snack even if the numbers look flat than attempting to thwart a drop by feeding higher carb at PS. If +1 or +2 are dropping, then switch to the higher carb for the snack. You need to let him see the better numbers if he is ever going to get used to them.
 
Sometimes they will drop suddenly on us, even when they start out looking just fine. It may be a sign of too much insulin and we end up going down in dose, getting things situated, then going back up with a flatter curve and then earning a reduction that sticks better. Its all about finding what works out to flatten the curve. Because they are cats, they don't always cooperate with us ;)

I think you might be better off feeding a +1 or +2 LC snack even if the numbers look flat than attempting to thwart a drop by feeding higher carb at PS. If +1 or +2 are dropping, then switch to the higher carb for the snack. You need to let him see the better numbers if he is ever going to get used to them.
I will try that starting tonight.
Thank you Melanie:bighug:
 
I'd also like to point out that some cats won't see any difference in BG with a canned food that's 8% carbs vs. 4% carbs. I had to get up to at least 10-15% carbs before it had any effect on raising Bandit's BG. I never "fed the curve" with him, though, so he only got the medium carb food when he'd drop close to or below 50. I only fed high carb food if he continued to drop after eating the medium carb food, which was very rare.

I agree with Melanie that feeding snacks (or more frequent meals) was always helpful leveling out his curves! How often are you feeding a day? If you're only feeding at shot time 2x a day, splitting up the meals so that you're feedng 4x a day and getting two meals in at +6 (or whenever his nadir is) could help level him out.
 
I'd also like to point out that some cats won't see any difference in BG with a canned food that's 8% carbs vs. 4% carbs. I had to get up to at least 10-15% carbs before it had any effect on raising Bandit's BG. I never "fed the curve" with him, though, so he only got the medium carb food when he'd drop close to or below 50. I only fed high carb food if he continued to drop after eating the medium carb food, which was very rare.

I agree with Melanie that feeding snacks (or more frequent meals) was always helpful leveling out his curves! How often are you feeding a day? If you're only feeding at shot time 2x a day, splitting up the meals so that you're feedng 4x a day and getting two meals in at +6 (or whenever his nadir is) could help level him out.
Hi..
Thank you for the input...
Drevon is 16 and has always free fed-(when DX the dry got thrown out)
I know having food out all the time is not ideal but at his age and his civvie Rico who is 17 with CKD I just don't think it would be good to change this now especially with trying to keep weight on Rico.

Drevon won't eat food that has been out for more than about 20 minutes... unless he is dropping low.
I leave the freeze dried out (except 2 hours prior to testing) and what he doesn't eat from his "meal"...... which 90% of the time sits there until I throw it out.
I am going to take this information and try a revised strategy starting tonight....
Thank you again for your input-- I will have to do some homework on the 15% carbs:)
 
Hi..
Thank you for the input...
Drevon is 16 and has always free fed-(when DX the dry got thrown out)
I know having food out all the time is not ideal but at his age and his civvie Rico who is 17 with CKD I just don't think it would be good to change this now especially with trying to keep weight on Rico.

Drevon won't eat food that has been out for more than about 20 minutes... unless he is dropping low.
I leave the freeze dried out (except 2 hours prior to testing) and what he doesn't eat from his "meal"...... which 90% of the time sits there until I throw it out.
I am going to take this information and try a revised strategy starting tonight....
Thank you again for your input-- I will have to do some homework on the 15% carbs:)

It's OK not to have food out all the time, especially if he's eating his canned food ok! Why not try scheduled feedings of canned and see how it works? You can always feed more to Rico, and as frequently as you need. 4x a day is just a suggestion--I was feeding 6x a day or more when my other cat, Gabby, had stomach cancer and could only eat very small meals. That would work, too. You can mix a little water in the food to get more moisture unto Rico, which is good for CKD kitties.

I just want to be clear--I would not recommend feeding something 10-15% carbs unless he is dropping below the normal range (50 on a human meter). The medium carb food is good for drops that bring him low but aren't too drastic, and high carb is good for more severe hypoglycemia. I think the whole time Bandit was on insulin last year he got the medium carb food maybe 2 or 3 times? We never needed the high carb food. The rest of the time, he got his normal low carb food(various flavors ranging between 2-8%).
 
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