Feeding question

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DeirdreKM

Member Since 2012
Hi everyone - I am hoping to attempt (soon!) to wean my cat off dry food. My concern is two-fold: first, I work all day, and my shifts vary (sometimes 8:30-5, sometimes 11:30-8). I give Sasha wet food with his insulin 12 hours apart, but leave dry food down for him during the day. I am concerned he will get hungry during the day while I'm gone without the dry food. (I have read about people freezing the wet food and leaving it to thaw. I don't think this would work with Sasha, as he would gobble the food up as soon as it's thawed, rather than pacing himself for a whole day). So my first question is, how do you working folks deal with this? Do you just give them a larger portion of wet food at each meal and hope it lasts them all day?

My second concern is this: I do not test at home. I know everyone on here absolutely insists on testing at home, but I am not comfortable with it. Right now Sasha gets his blood tested at the vet's office every couple weeks. I am concerned if I eliminate the dry food completely, he will run the risk of becoming hypoglycemic. Even though at the vet's his numbers haven't gone any lower (yet) than 300. If I do not test his blood sugar, how can I insure he won't go hypo? Should I decrease his insulin? Right now he is on 3 units twice a day (Lantus). If I switch him to exclusively wet food, should I go back to maybe 1 unit twice a day? I really, REALLY do not want to test his blood sugar at home, so please don't tell me I MUST do that.

thank you!
 
Hi,

The difficulty is that if you don't test then you won't know the effect of the reduction/elimination of dry food. It's not something you can 'guess' about. I wish it was..... :roll: It's highly likely that your cat would need a reduced insulin dose. But as to what that dose should be....? I don't know......

My personal view is that - if you really don't want (or don't feel able to) test at home - you shouldn't remove the dry food... Without hometesting data you can't insure that he won't drop too low. That's why the advice on this forum is only to remove dry food IF the cat can be monitored at home... Sorry....

Are you able to tell folks why you feel so strongly about not hometesting?

Eliz in UK
 
Home testing isn't hard. I swtiched to the ReliOn Micro and it was super fast. Uses a tiny bit of blood. I first was using the Accu chek and was getting frustrated as I couldn't get a big enough drop. The ReliOn made everything easier. One little stick and I had the the right amount of blood. I am SO glad I home tested or I would never have known Pepe got regulated so fast. Now he doesn't need insulin.

Sharon and Pepe
 
As far as leaving food out for the day, many people use automatic feeders. The PetSafe 5 is a popular one. Personally, I use this one becasue my cat is part raccoon and has broken into other ones I've tried: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005POODL8/?tag=felinediabetesfdmb-20 I wouldn't want to blindly make food changes. If you change from dry to low carb the sugar levels can drop significantly.

Now the sticky subject of hometesting...I have to say I was reluctant to start that up myself in the beginning so I sort of see where you might be coming from. I was diligently following the vet's advice and going in for curves and dosing advice. We were up to 3.5u Lantus twice a day. Ironically, on the day I had finally decided to pick up some testing supplies, I came home to check on Buster for lunch and I found him face down in the corner of the room. He was totally limp, cold and kind of twitching. When I touched him he yowled something awful! He had gone hypoglycemic. He was too out of it to eat, so I rubbed some honey on his gums and rushed him to ER. Thankfully, they were able to revive him with some dextrose. 24hours and $600 later, I got my kitty back and started hometesting. It really is the only way you can truly be safe. I don't mean to be overdramatic, but I have to tell you the risk you're running without hometesting.

I don't want to chase you away from the boards. We have all been in your shoes and are here to support you and Sasha as best we can!
 
Bandit is a gobbler and will gnaw at frozen food until it's gone, so I put his frozen food in an auto feeder and set it to go off every 6 hours that I'm not there to feed him. I have this feeder and it works very well (it's sturdy; Bandit is like a raccoon and can't rip this one apart), but many people have This feeder and like it a lot.

You're right, changing the diet can reduce overall blood glucose levels 100-300 points, and even cause spontaneous remission in about 25% of cats (meaning they no longer need any insulin). That's why it's not safe to change the diet without hometesting--even if you lower the dose to 1u, if that 1u turns out to be much your cat is still in danger of a dangerous hypoglycemic episode. If your cat is one of the lucky 25% that goes into remission from the diet change alone, he could have a dangerous hypo incident if you're not home monitoring him. 3u is a high dose of insulin for a cat--I would be surprised if the dose wasn't already too high. Most cats on a low carb canned diet do not need more than 1u of insulin, but they could need less than that--many cats only need .75u, or .5u, or .25u. The only way you can determine the correct dose is with daily testing. Without data, you're shooting blind--it's like trying to hit a bullseye blindfolded. Only every time you miss this bullseye, your cat has a greater and more serious risk of dying. Dose adjustment via home testing is like shooting with your eyes open--it takes some practice, but once you get the hang of it you become really good at it, and if you hit that bullseye area enough, your cat no longer needs insulin.

May I ask why you don't want to home test? Are you afraid, or do you think your cat won't accept it? Cats have very few nerve endings in their ears, so testing does not hurt them AT ALL. What they don't like in the beginning is being restrained, having something new done to them that's not in their routine, and sensing that their human is scared and nervous. Testing seems difficult at first, but even the most difficult cats accept it just fine after a few weeks of it being done routinely, and if you reward each test with a low carb treat. When Bandit was diagnosed, my vet told me that I HAD NO CHOICE but to home test if I wanted him to get better--vet testing is unreliable and inaccurate because the numbers are inflated due to stress. This often leads to overdosing and the cat suffers for it. I was in tears the first week because he fought me tooth and nail. But I stuck with it, made it routine, rewarded each test, and I calmed myself down. That was the most important part--accepting that I was in charge of this cat and the only way I was going to keep him safe and get him better was to suck it up and just do it. I had to wrap him in a blanket and test him in a basket to keep him from scratching/biting me. After two weeks, he let me do it without fighting me. Today, Bandit hears the meter beep on, runs and jumps into his testing basket, lies down and starts purring. This is not uncommon! He has been in remission for over 2 years (which is incredibly unlikely for someone who isn't hometesting to reach; alternately, cats on a low carb canned diet, a long acting insulin and dose adjustments based of daily home testing have an 84+% remission rate).

If the time and work is an issue, I treated Bandit's diabetes testing 4 times a day working 2 jobs and going to grad school. Testing only takes a few seconds once you learn, and it saves you LOADS of work and worry in the long run. A human diabetic would never dream of injecting insulin without testing, and cats are no different. In fact, because cats are more likely to need very small, fine dose adjustments, it's even more dangerous not to test. It's more comparable to a baby or toddler with diabetes--and never in a million years would anyone injecting insulin blindly into a child.

I'm sorry that I'm saying what you don't want to hear, but unfortunately it's the truth. But what you don't realize is that testing is not only better for your cat, it's better for YOU. If you're testing daily, risk of a deadly hypoglycemic incident is slim to none. If you're adjusting the dose properly based off daily data (which is the only way to properly adjust the dose), then you will be able to control his blood sugar and which allows his pancreas to heal and him to go into remission. I've never met anyone who didn't home test their cat where the cat did nothing but get progressively worse and/or suffer a dangerous hypo incident (after which the person started home testing). You have to look at it in terms of what's going to improve YOUR life--a progressively sick cat, or a cat that's healing and eventually no longer needs insulin? The current feline diabetes veterinary treatment guidelines (which strongly advocate home testing) work very well, and I would strongly advise going that route with Sasha's treatment. The sooner you do, the better Sasha's chances of remission. There is a window on remission, so you don't want to wait. I'm not sure if your vet has discussed these with you--some vets are not aware of the current guidelines because they just came out in 2009-2010.
 
Tara & Buster said:
..I don't want to chase you away from the boards. We have all been in your shoes and are here to support you and Sasha as best we can!

Yes, Tara - I absolutely agree. We really DO want to try to support folks and not drive them away.... It worries me sometimes that people may be scared off by the idea of hometesting, and yet, it IS so important too... (sighs heavily...) :roll:

There have been people on this forum who've been unable - for various reasons - to test their cats. I recall that Allie (and Myrtle) had to use alternative monitoring methods. And when I started I thought my cat would be impossible to test (I was completely convinced of that!) and I also used alternative monitoring methods at first. But when I plucked up the courage to try hometesting, it wasn't nearly as bad as I thought, and it has probably saved Bert's life several times over....

Edited to add: I sometimes think we could do with an 'alternative monitoring tools' sticky on this forum. I feel there may well be people (like I was initially) who really don't feel they can hometest. And I do think it's important to try to be inclusive and not seem like a 'hometesting club'. If people really, really, really don't feel able to test then maybe they can at least start out with some other form of monitoring. They may move on to hometesting - like I did.
 
Can you tell us your reasons for not wanting to hometest? Are you scared of doing it? Scared of hurting the cat? Have a fractious hard to handle cat? Don't have the time? Have limited mobility? Have limited finances to support hometesting? There are many people here who initially did not want to hometest at all for various reasons but eventually did learn how to hometest and now are pros at doing it. Testing literally takes less than a minute to do. On more than one occasion hometesting has saved a cat's life because the owern was able to catch a hypo in progress and was able to treat it.

Do you need/want help from someone to learn how to hometest? There are members from all over the world here. Just post your general location and there may be someone who lives nearby who can help.

Blindly giving insulin without knowing what the blood glucose level is dangerous. Someone once compared it to driving a car with a paper bag over the head.

Think of this: Say you have a 4 year old child who was just diagnosed as diabetic. The doctor tells you that you must test blood glucose levels daily for your child. Would you refuse? Most likely not. You would do anything for your child so that he/she can live a happy healthy life without any diabetic complications.

I'm sure you want your diabetic cat to continue to live a long happy and healthy life, too.

My two cents on that :smile: I hope you will continue to come here to FDMB to learn how to best care for your diabetic cat. Everyone here is willing to help you with that. We can provide tips on most nearly everything for daibetic cat care, from where to buy inexpenisve supplies to how to keep vet costs down and more.

EDIT: Here are some alternative methods for monitoring your diabetic cat: https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1r6ktdF7AMJCYHgPkVQWFUFy5Ag6OnbmfNfQqL3zX_88 Please take note what it says at the top of the page.

Also, many cats get so stressed out at the vet's office that any blood gluocse testing done there will be inaccurately high. Stress raises blood glucose levels. It's not uncommon for a diabetic cat to test in the 300+ range at the vet's office but at home the levels are much lower. You can save a lot of $$ by testing at home yourself and know that the results are accurate.
 
I have a list of Secondary Monitoring Tools in my signature link. (Oh! Listed in link above too!)

You may find those helpful for tracking, though they are less precise than glucometer readings. Most important is urine ketone testing, as diabetic ketoacidosis can be fatal and is _very_ expensive to treat.

If you decide to make a food change, and urine glucose is present and water consumption is high, do it very gradually. There is a PDf containing Dr Rand's criteria for dose adjustments at the University of Queensland Centre for Companion Animal Health (not on my PC, or I'd link it)
 
BJM said:
There is a PDf containing Dr Rand's criteria for dose adjustments at the University of Queensland Centre for Companion Animal Health

Here is the link to Dr. Rand's Lantus dosing protocol: http://www.uq.edu.au/ccah/docs/diabetesinfo/link4.pdf

Please read the starred stickies on the Lantus board to understand how the insulin works for cats: http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewforum.php?f=9

DeirdreKM said:
Right now Sasha gets his blood tested at the vet's office every couple weeks. I am concerned if I eliminate the dry food completely, he will run the risk of becoming hypoglycemic.

If you don't hometest you also run the risk of hypoglycemia, IMO.

If I do not test his blood sugar, how can I insure he won't go hypo?

You can't. If you don't test blood glucose levels you have absolutely no other way to know what the glucose level is and if a hypo might happen in a few hours. Of, if a hypo is occuring, you have no way of knowing exactly how low the glucose level is and what the best treatment would be (give syrup or give food? Or a combination?). Some diabetic cats may not show hypo symptoms until the glucose level drops very very low and only then will they show the more severe symptoms of seizures and blindness, among others.

While urine glucose testing can be done, you can't get a cat to pee when you want him/her to. Glucose builds up in urine since the last time a cat peed so by the time you do get a reading, the glucose level is hours old and always high. With blood glucose testing you get an ear or a paw, give it a poke, and get a reading from the meter in a few seconds.
 
I appreciate everyone's replies. My reasons for not wanting to hometest are mutliple. Firstly, my vet does not support it. Secondly, I really, truly believe Sasha would never allow it. This is a cat who has NEVER taken a pill. NEVER. I have NEVER ever been able to get a pill down his throat, not with Pill Pockets, not with pill shooters, not with any possible conceivable technique known to man. He also will NOT tolerate a blanket or towel being wrapped around him. He will not tolerate being restrained in any fashion. Thirdly, if I were to hometest, I would want to use the meter and lancets and strips I already have (I am diabetic myself), because I can get my insurance to pay for them and I don't really use them very often anyhow. But it seems everyone on here insists that the ReliOn meter is the only way to go. That's not what I have (I have a One Touch Ultra mini). So having to purchase another meter, and strips, that my insurance doesn't pay for is probably out of my price range. Actually, knowing how much test strips cost I would say it is DEFINITELY out of my price range.

I wonder if my vet would support taking Sasha off insulin while we test the wet-food-only thing? I am exasperated at this point. I'm reluctant to use automatic feeders, not only because of the cost of purchasing one, but because I have two cats. So I guess that would mean 2 automatic feeders? And then Sasha (the Alpha male) would surely eat Chloe's food as well as his own, if he sees the opportunity.

Aaaarrrggghhh! I'm sorry to be so defeatist. I really do appreciate everyone taking the time to give me advice. I'm just so frustrated right now. :(
 
Oh goodness, I see your dilemma with two cats. I too have the Petsafe auto feeders, but I have only one cat (and I use two feeders). Perhaps you could place them in separate rooms? They are a God-send.

As far as the meter, if you take a look at the Lantus guideline link that was offered in a previous post, the material does talk about how to use meters calibrated for people as well as meters calibrated for cats. So, you do have the option of using your existing meter. I am so sorry you also have diabetes, but wow, you have the opportunity for your insurance to cover your cat. That's pretty awesome. Hopefully, the insurance won't limit you to the amount of supplies purchased (maybe something to look into).

Regarding the food, do you have a wonderful neighbor who could pop in and provide lunch for your babies 6 hours from breakfast/insulin injection? At least until you can get through the wet food trial? Also, that means someone will see your kitty's behavior at the lowest blood glucose level. If you do feed solely wet food, your chances of kitty going into remission are so much greater. The prescription renal diet dry food is what gave my cat diabetes and pancreatitis in the first place. Wet food is just so much better for them. I wish someone (including multiple vets) had told me this before my poor cat suffered the consequences.

DZ and Sarah
 
The One Touch Ultra Mini is a great meter to use by all means use it, bonus that it is covered by insurance. The reason most here use the Walmart Relion is because the cost of the strips are less expensive then most other brands.

My Vet didn't support home testing either. But a few days into Harley's dx a diabetic friend came over to give me a crash course in human diabetes and when it was time to give him his insulin my friend looked at me shocked and said "you can't blindly shoot insulin into a living being, you might kill him", I burst into tears (the first of many) at the thought of having to learn something else as I was already overwhelmed and terrified by the dx. That's when I got online and found FDMB, what a relief it was to know that I wasn't alone.

I get it, testing wasn't something that I thought I could ever do either but I had to give it a try for my boy. With heart pounding, breathing erratic and hands shaking my first try I missed his ear completely and stabbed myself, the tears came again (I cried alot that first week) as I burried my face into his fur and sobbed because I just couldn't do it. When I pulled myself together he looked up at me with love and trust, I had to be worthy of that look.

Sorry, your question was about food. Thanks for letting me walk down memory lane.

Since you are using Lantus maybe you could post this question in the Lantus ISG, you will get more Lantus eyes over there. But I would think that lowering the dose during the food switch would be a great idea for what ever insulin is being used. I don't think it's a good idea to stop insulin all together as that could invite ketones and DKA which can be deadly.

I know that everyone here feels very passionate about our treatment protocol because it works for so many diabetic kitties, we just want the best for your kitty too.

Good luck,
Robin
 
Hi,

First off, (((Hugs))) to you. You sound like you're having a really tough time.... We really do KNOW how you feel....

Secondly; yes, of course you can use the One Touch Ultra mini and OTU strips; however, for cats, the basic OTU meter (not the 'mini') is, I understand, more accurate. It uses the same OTU strips as the 'mini' (I think the OTU 2 is fine also. I've used it for 6 years and find it excellent).

Thirdly; the reason I thought my cat would be impossible to test is because he's a big, powerful (6.5 kilo) cat who won't be held or restrained in any way. If he doesn't want to do something we can't do it... But he has a particular fondness for freeze-dried chicken treats, so I crumble a few of those for him and test him quickly while he's eating them! He very soon learned to associate tests with treats, and constantly bothers me to 'test him' now - even when he doesn't need a test. It drives me crackers! :lol:
 
DeirdreKM said:
Firstly, my vet does not support it.

Here's the American Animal Hospital Association Guidelines for Diabetes: http://www.aahanet.org/PublicDocuments/AAHADiabetesGuidelines.pdf. To get your vet on board, I would print these out, and highlight the first bullet on p. 218 under "Precautions and details." It states:

Home monitoring of BG is ideal and strongly encouraged to obtain the most accurate interpretation of glucose relative to clinical signs. Most owners are able to learn to do this with a little encouragement, and interpretation of glucose results is much easier for the clinician.

I've also attached an article that discusses the safety and efficacy of home testing with Lantus, also to print out for your vet. That should get your vet on board with you home testing. If it doesn't, I would switch vets to one that will support you with the current guidelines. It's understandable if a vet didn't know about the guidelines because they are just a few years old, but it's completely unacceptable if the vet still insists that you don't hometest after reading them. You don't want to take your cat to a vet that puts their wallet over the health of your cat.



DeirdreKM said:
Secondly, I really, truly believe Sasha would never allow it. This is a cat who has NEVER taken a pill. NEVER. I have NEVER ever been able to get a pill down his throat, not with Pill Pockets, not with pill shooters, not with any possible conceivable technique known to man. He also will NOT tolerate a blanket or towel being wrapped around him. He will not tolerate being restrained in any fashion.

You would be surprised how many people here think that; but are surprised to find with the right technique even the most fractious cats accept it. You may need an extra set of hands at first. Is there anyone who can help you? Can you post your location (City and State)? Perhaps there is a member nearby that could come show you how to test, and help you get a good technique down until he accepts it. Low carb treats are key--giving one after every test trains the cat to not only accept it, they learn to like it! Like I said, it doesn't hurt the cat at all--they just need to get used to it.

I had a friend that didn't home test her diabetic cat for 4 months because she said the same thing (the vet told her she shouldn't and she didn't think he would ever allow it); finally she called me after her cats diabetes was so severe he couldn't even walk to the litterbox because he had developed severe diabetic neuropathy, he was severely underweight, and he was suffering hypoglycemic symptoms several times a week (because it turned out he was badly overdosed by the vet). He seriously wasn't going to last much longer, and getting a hold of me was her last resort with him. I went over and showed her how to home test, and Sydney didn't even mind it that much. Syd is now fully recovered and in remission.

DeirdreKM said:
. Thirdly, if I were to hometest, I would want to use the meter and lancets and strips I already have (I am diabetic myself), because I can get my insurance to pay for them and I don't really use them very often anyhow. But it seems everyone on here insists that the ReliOn meter is the only way to go. That's not what I have (I have a One Touch Ultra mini). So having to purchase another meter, and strips, that my insurance doesn't pay for is probably out of my price range. Actually, knowing how much test strips cost I would say it is DEFINITELY out of my price range.

The only reason so many people have the relion is because the strips are the cheapest you can get without insurance, and the meter is good quality. You can certainly use your own meter! I use an Aviva Accuchek because I like it better than the relion, and for a while a friend of mine was giving me her extra test strips that were about to expire, so it was cutting back on my test strip costs. But if money is an issue, that's another reason you need to learn to home test. Home testing will save you a ton of money because you don't need to pay for any vet curves--you do them yourself. Even if you didn't get free strips and had to use the relion, it would still be way cheaper than vet testing.

DeirdreKM said:
Aaaarrrggghhh! I'm sorry to be so defeatist. I really do appreciate everyone taking the time to give me advice. I'm just so frustrated right now. :(

We were all frustrated and overwhelmed at first! No need to be sorry. Let us help you out, and make your life a bit easier. Home testing is one of the ways to do that. :-D
 

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DeirdreKM said:
Firstly, my vet does not support it.

You do not need the vet's permission or support to test your cat's blood glucose levels.

There are many published veterinary studies in well known veterinary journals that support hometesting. Maybe your vet is out of date with current methods and practices for managing a diabetic patient. Here are some abstracts to published studies: http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2508


Secondly, I really, truly believe Sasha would never allow it. This is a cat who has NEVER taken a pill. NEVER. I have NEVER ever been able to get a pill down his throat, not with Pill Pockets, not with pill shooters, not with any possible conceivable technique known to man. He also will NOT tolerate a blanket or towel being wrapped around him. He will not tolerate being restrained in any fashion.

Will your cat let you play with his ears while he eats? Give it a try and see how he reacts. Most cats do not need to be wrapped up in order to be tested. Plunk down a bowl of food at breakfast and dinner time and while the cat is eating, do the blood glucose test and give insulin. For tests in between insulin times, a few low carb treats or a snack of canned food is enough to keep most cats distracted while you test.

Thirdly, if I were to hometest, I would want to use the meter and lancets and strips I already have (I am diabetic myself), because I can get my insurance to pay for them and I don't really use them very often anyhow. But it seems everyone on here insists that the ReliOn meter is the only way to go. That's not what I have (I have a One Touch Ultra mini). So having to purchase another meter, and strips, that my insurance doesn't pay for is probably out of my price range. Actually, knowing how much test strips cost I would say it is DEFINITELY out of my price range.

ANY blood glucose meter works. Your OneTouch meter will work just fine :smile:

You often see the Relion brand mentioned here because it is inexpensive.



I wonder if my vet would support taking Sasha off insulin while we test the wet-food-only thing?

Diet alone does not work. It might lower blood glucose levels a little bit but insulin is still needed.

You do need to test blood gluocse levels when changing the diet so you can prevent a hypo. 3 units of Lantus twice a day is a huge dose and a diet change means less insulin will likely be needed. But you don't know exaclty how much the diet will impact blood glucose levels unless you test.


I'm reluctant to use automatic feeders, not only because of the cost of purchasing one, but because I have two cats. So I guess that would mean 2 automatic feeders? And then Sasha (the Alpha male) would surely eat Chloe's food as well as his own, if he sees the opportunity./quote]

Try looking on your local FreeCycle.org and Craigslist for a programmable timed feeder someone might be giving away.

Low carb canned food is best for both your cats. Catinfo.org has all the reasons why. Most everyone here with mulitple cats that include a diabetic or two just feed one thing: low carb canned food. There are ways to make sure the diabetic cat eats his/her share of food.
 
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