Feeding/dosage questions

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Charliemeow

Charliemeow

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Charlie has been on an increased dose of 1.5u prozinc for 4 days and no improvement in bgs! Does this warrant an increase? We feed fancy feast (and some friskies wet) and core kibbles. He eats at: 0(1/2 can ff and 1/16 c core) +4.5(1/2 can ff), +9(1/2 can ff), +12(1 can ff), +18.5(1/8 c core). We are eliminating dry, except for the 18.5 feeding (1:30 am). I have a timed feeder, but I don't feel comfy leaving wet food in it for that long- all food spoils when left too long at room temp. Any suggestions? All his #s are on his ss, and I will do a full curve tomorrow.
 
I'd say after 4 days you can definitely take up the dose to 1.75u with those numbers. I might even suggest going to 2u because the numbers are so high still. What do others think?
 
Wow those are high! I know my vet would up Callie's dose with numbers that high, but I would wait for someone here who is very familiar with your insulin to tell you how much you need to up it. It's a large learning curve for FD and I am still trying to climb! Good luck and someone will come to your rescue shortly. You may want to edit your 1st post and put a big HELP High BG feed/dose ? Just to get a bit more attention :) All I got .. have a good evening and don't worry, someone in the know will get you fixed up. Hugs ..Libby and Callie (and civvies: brother Buddy and sister Missy)

Callie's SS
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key ... TuVA#gid=0
Callie 10 yrs old on 9/17/10 dx 6/12/10
Lantus 2 units BID (U100) since 9/30/10
HT BG with AlphaTrak & Lancet device
On AlphaTrak worry at 80 not 50
Wet food only since 9/30/10
Camp Hill, PA USA
 
Seems like a LOT of food to me.....but I am not use to feeding canned food yet.

I am use to EVO dry food and have always fed 3 cats 3/4 cup 2x a day (for all 3!)
Recently I have introduced canned food before each feeding to try to make them more full and not eat the dry.
So i give each cat about a tablespoon of food right now, which they do not always eat all of.

You are giving 2-1/2 cans of canned to one cat per day, plus other food? I know the FF are smaller cans but what about the friskies?

I guess I am more asking this as a question because how much canned food do people feed each cat?
 
The recommended feeding on the can is 3/4 to 1 oz per pound of cat daily. He is 12 (but should be closer to 14) lbs, so I'm not feeding enough according to the instructions.
 
Hi Claudia,

Some of those high numbers will be attributable to still feeding the dry food. The dry food will cause his insulin needs to be more.

Your vet recommended to up the dose to 2u BID a little while ago. It looks like you do indeed have room to do that from the 1.5u. If you are doing a curve today, you'll be monitoring anyway...

Sometimes it can seem like these numbers are stubborn, but they will improve with gradual changes.

Remember you want to get his numbers down to 100-200 ranges, so if you up the dose and he drops to those kind of numbers today...don't panic and overfeed. Instead be very happy you are approaching a dose that works.
 
Thanks blue! We increased to 2u this morning. We are getting rid of all daytime kibbles today, then we will work on that darn midnite feeding. I just know he'll claw at his feeder if he smells wet in it. That'll wake up the whole house!! If I freeze it, I'm not sure it'll be thawed by then, and then he'll be kicking a gross food ice cube around the kitchen! So I'm now thinking maybe putting some freeze dried chicken treats in there. Low-carb, not as stinky(so he wouldn't notice it in the spinner as much), and he won't play hockey with them! I bet they're expensive, though. I'll make a trip to petsmart today...I hope there's not a kitty adoption display in the front of the store! That always breaks my heart...especially my overly sensitive preggo heart.
 
i like increasing by 0.25u unless we're talking a big gulper (high dose), coz you can keep going up every 3 days if you have to, unless it has become clear that your cat takes a lot longer to adjust to dose changes. (based on my experience with helping others using prozinc and with my cat on lantus and pzi.)

saw your earlier discussion re dry and do wish you'd stop feeding it except for hypo emergencies. i have 5 cats eating fancy feast and the canned food does not go bad when it sits around for a day. i scrape it into the trash bin after a day. wellness is a different story -- it really needs to be covered in plastic wrap and not sit out too long, but haven't seen that with fancy feast in 17 years of feeding it. totally understand, tho, that some find it easier to phase out the dry rather than stopping it immediately like i did. don't want to pressure you but it does make a pretty big dent in the numbers when you stop the dry. plus, core is EXPENSIVE! yikes! :)

[maybe make the nighttime snack NOT in the feeder and don't worry if your cat eats it all up. that way no more scratching and going crazy at the feeder. after a while they adjust to the food/schedule change and things are fine. i transitioned all 5 of our cats to all wet from a substantially dry diet and it was a madhouse around here for a month or so (everyone starving all the time). but after a while they all relaxed into the new routine and seemed fine with it.]
 
Also remember with our FD's you can't go by the recommended feeding amount on the cans because our cats just don't process food like healthy cats do. Until you get the numbers in non-diabetic range most of the time, you have to think of it like you are feeding the diabetes more so than like you are feeding the cat since it takes more food for them to get the same amount of nutrients.
 
I didn't know that. So more than the can says? He will be pleased! He's eating us out of house and home! Lol! He lives his new chicken treats, too!
 
Another tip with the food....if you add water to it, and make it a little soupy, it will stay moist much longer. Some cats don't like it soupy, but all of mine do. Plus, the extra water is very good for FD kitties!

I agree with Kelly on how much to feed....until Charlie starts getting into better numbers, I would feed him as much as he wants since he can't process the food well...UNLESS he is overweight already. Once he gets regulated, he won't be as hungry and his consumption will drop.

I'm with Chris on the dosing...increase by 0.25, hold 3 days and go from there.
 
When I adopted Oliver in March, he was eating close to 30oz of food a day, sometimes more. He was not regulated and so his body was incapable of processed the food he ate to extract the nutrients he needed. I would guess it's like eating then being hungry an hour later.
He is now regulated and eats maybe one 12oz can ad day at the very most.

His snack in the morn prior to his amps, is slices and chunks of raw chicken.

I water down all of their wet food because Shadoe is prone to pancreatitis and Oliver has tested positive once as well. The added water fills them up and is good for them.

I cannot allow Shadoe to eat even a single mouthful of maybe 3 or 5 pieces of dry food; her BG numbers shoot up to high 400s and it take a couple days to bring her back down to decent numbers - it's just horrible how it affects her numbers!
 
Just an FYI on the dry food - it does NOT affect all cats' BG equally. It's not a good choice but as has been said here for years - ECID(every cat is different).

I am NOT recommending that you continue to feed it - quite the opposite since he is eating wet food already. I am sure that the removal of kibble from Charlie's diet will help tremendously. My personal opinion is that you might do that 0.25U increase and hold it until the dry food is history. Then adjust the dose further as needed.
 
Laurie and Mr Tinkles said:
I'm with Chris on the dosing...increase by 0.25, hold 3 days and go from there.
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Even if the current numbers are in the 400 - 500s @ 1.5u? I don't usually like 0.5u increases, but these numbers are high right now. Until the dry food is completely gone, 2u might be needed right now.
 
I agree, Kelly, if the dry continues to be part of Charlie's diet. What I would not suggest (and I know, Kelly, that you are not) is to use a 0.5U increase in conjunction with removing the dry entirely.

When Moochie was on PZI Vet and I was first attempting to regulate her the increases I used were always 0.5U. Her early numbers were extremely high and a tiny increase wouldn't touch them. Since Moochie ate (and continues to eat) dry that was a much better increase/decrease amount. She is well regulated - at least for her - now on Levemir so it's not an issue anymore so much in the area of adjustments.
 
ECID, but when I started with H on 1u PZI twice per day then switched to a low carb wet diet, his number were occasionally in the high 400s. After the food switch he ended up needing less than 1u. We're talkin' 200+ point drop [and even more as time went on]. All be it Charlie here is up to 1.5u but I just give H's example of the drop a kitty can have on a diet change. Even his vet that supposedly didn't think diet had anything to do with regulation said I should change the food first before raising the dose. :roll:
 
Gator & H (GA) said:
ECID, but ....
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It's misleading to make assumptions IMHO so it needs to be said for everyone reading who may not post that ECID is a fact that should not be downplayed or poo-poo'd IMHO. Sorry if that was not your intention.
 
Susie and Moochie said:
It's misleading to make assumptions IMHO so it needs to be said for everyone reading who may not post that ECID is a fact that should not be downplayed or poo-poo'd IMHO. Sorry if that was not your intention.
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:? No, I was not being sarcastic if that is what you mean. I meant it totally for reals. :smile: Quite literal in fact. Like, "hey this was my cat and your cat may do different things so take what you can from this but understand your cat may be different." Hopefully I used it in the right context?? Who knows what else this kitty may have going on too - many cats have different circumstances which IMHO is another valid point to ECID. There are so many factors that may be different from my experience and I think that is the true meaning of "ECID?"
 
We went to 2u today, and his early #s looked good, then a crazy spike at +6, then back down for +8 and 10. I don't get it. It looks like We will be cutting out dry food over the next few days--just gonna put some freeze dried chix in his spinner for his midnite snack. I read here somewhere that it will still take a couple days for that to affect his bgs, right? So maybe I will drop back to 1.5 to help avoid a hypo? How long would you expect it to take for his #s to reflect a diet change? I won't cut out dry though until a day this week when I will be home most of the time for a couple days to keep an eye on his bgs. I don't want any hypos when I'm away!
Susan-- was it you who posted that her kitty is still eating dry? What do you use? Did you find it harder to regulate kitty?
 
I think that depending on how his numbers go with the increase to 2U that it probably is a good idea to drop it back when you stop the dry. Good move to be home for that too.

Yes, I am the one who continues to feed dry. Moochie really was tough to regulate initially and it probably was related to the dry food although I did switch her to grain free dry before attempting to get her to eat wet food. I actually got her regulated by changing dosing strategies. It worked for her at the time.

She is decently regulated now and even spent five months off insulin a couple of years ago while eating her Kitten Chow. Just so you know it's not my choice that she eats dry. It's a necessity with her because she has chronic pancreatitis and is a frequent hunger striker. I can't afford to rock the boat with her so she still eats the dreaded dry - high carb dry, no less, because it is lower fat and seems to agree with her better than the lower carb, higher fat foods.
 
Hi Claudia -

With regards to the freeze-dried chicken treats, you can find them much cheaper online than in the pet stores. I buy the Halo treats....just do a search, and you should get lots of hits. Last time I bought some, I got them from an online drugstore and ended up paying around $6 per jar, with free shipping!
 
hi all, fwiw altho ecid the MAJORITY of cats will have a much higher bg on dry than a low carb canned food or raw diet. 100 points or so. susie's cat, much like susie, is special.
 
::::I agree, Kelly, if the dry continues to be part of Charlie's diet. What I would not suggest (and I know, Kelly, that you are not) is to use a 0.5U increase in conjunction with removing the dry entirely.

Look up Joan and Oscar. Oscar was having continued high numbers on treatment. Everyone here suggested she change Oscar to Lantus and cut out the dry. She did. Oscar's numbers fell thru the floor. He was off insulin in 2 weeks - she got him off dry totally over night which was all he needed. But for our darling boy, he's been on wet since dx and he's still needing around 3.5u 2 x daily. (we mostly feed raw meat)

This is what I notice with my boy: the higher the numbers, the greater the appetite. In the beginning we allowed LB to eat whenever he wanted as advised by vet. I see the reason behind it and was happy to follow orders but the down side was it set up a pattern of eating all the time - something that is now an established problem for our cat and IMHO he doesn't need it like he did in the beginning. He needs it for boredom and comfort but not for low numbers. He literally walks all over us during the nite and I saw his paw poised to smack me early today coz I wasn't moving. A small mix up with the time had me feed him twice in the night and I get 331 @ AMPs. (have tin of FF on standby). Yet at PMPs I get a lot of low numbers - so low that I have to use food to bring the numbers up.

I take a long time to get stuff and DH has been telling me for years to ease up on what LB eats. LB is down to 18lbs (Maine Coon) - by the earlier calculations I can give him 18oz of food each day. I get low numbers when I feed much less than feels right to feed. I find it hard to feed less - it's counter intuative for women who are used to nurturing. What you are aiming for is as little food as possible in the long term but not yet. Right now the best thing is to get him eating food that doesn't have added carbs.

No auto feeders available in OZ so I have had to place food in bedroom and LB has woken us for it when he's ready. I often put frozen lumps of raw meat covered in plastic which I removed when he wakes me. But now summer is close it will be more difficult to do that. You just have to find a way around it if you want to get Charlie better. I am still working on it. I have to feed less. Poor LB. Life has never been so good for him.

A final point was that our vet said LB won't get hypo on Lantus. When I think of how low he may have gone at times I think he might be right.
 
Interesting discussion here. My cat- Khan has been Fancy Feast now for 4-6 wks? I can't remember but I do know that recently (in past few days) his numbers have come down A LOT!! I attribute it to the fancy feast low carb diet. He has allergies and has been a picky eater on dry food his entire life. With feeding all my other cats wet he wouldn't even eat it. When switched to wet I was expecting him not to eat..but I mixed the EVO dry (low carb) with the wet and by day 4 he was all wet. I was shocked.

Plus I watch the video on WHERE to inject the insulin to provide more absorption. I am now injecting by the back leg and not between the shoulder blades. His numbers have gone from 400s to 54! (+3 or +4) which with Humulin N it still hasn't reached the peak. So I have backed off .25u on the insulin and patiently waiting for the LANTUS to delivered.
 
I knew not to inject in the scruff, so I usually inject in his saggy side-skin. We are now using mostly the low-carb friskies pate foods, just cuz it's much less expensive than ff and blue buffalo wilderness which we started on. Wet is so much more expensive than dry which stinks, but it's obviously worth it if it helps. I got a good tip from nancy and cody on helping to keep the wet food fresher in the auto-feeder for midnite feedings: put an ice cube in the food when I load it before bed. Then it should be melted by feeding time, plus it adds some extra h2o to his food. I'll try it!
 
your welcome, and did'nt we tell you that several times over in pzi?
 
All I recall reading was freezing the food itself, or using an auto feeder w/an underneath ice tray, or just adding water to the food to keep it from drying out. Don't remember seeing to put an ice cube on the food. I could be wrong.
Edited to add: yep, looked back and Nancy did indeed suggest it in one of her posts before she mentioned it in her pm. I must've overlooked it. So sorry
 
just not nice to be burning bridges with peeps trying to help you in the very peaceful island of pzi. both nancy and ice cubes were reccomended but you only saw what we were saying defensively and left without so much as a thank you but ignoring our good will.
 
Charliemeow said:
We are now using mostly the low-carb friskies pate foods, just cuz it's much less expensive than ff and blue buffalo wilderness which we started on.
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Which ones are the "pate" flavors? I don't see any Friskies "pate" flavors in Janet & Binky's [aybe I'm just being stupid and missing them??]? Or is there another source of nutritional info for the "pate" flavors you are using?
 
Gimme a sec- I saw them on there and they're all 9 and under. They are just listed as flavors, though, the cans call them "classes pate" . I'll find em on the list and be back to you
 
Yeah, most of the ones under 9 are "classic pates" (according to the can labels), they're just listed by flavors on the list, though. A couple are: sea captains choice, mixed grill, ocean wf&tuna, turkey&giblets, country style dinner, chicken&tuna. There's others, but those are just the ones in my cupboard!
 
The classic pate denotation on the Friskies cans is a fairly recent addition to their labels, before that they were just listed as such and such flavors which if I remember correctly is how they are listed on Binky's list. I know the labeling change has been within just the last few months because they weren't labelled that way when Muse was still with us but I've noticed it several times now when getting it for our furry gang. So anything on Binky's list of Friskies that isn't specifically listed as sliced, or in gravy etc should I believe be the pate ones.

Mel
 
OK good thanks Mel and Claudia for clearing that up. Just making sure the nutrition info being used is from Janet & Binky's list as that info has been procured from the manufacturer and converted in a specific way. Sometimes folks will try to use the info off the back of the can or something which is in a different format [guaranteed analysis] which often a distant step cousin of reality.
 
We put a frozen puck in our feeder for the early morning feeding. It works great for us. We found a silicon cupcake pan whose sections are exactly the same size as a FF can. So I freeze it in 6 servings, pop it into a baggie and pull a puck out each night for the timed feeder.
 
Sue- thanks! I've heard that idea mentioned before, I have visions of Charlie kicking still-frozen food all around the house trying to eat it! That thought grosses me out! Our kitchen is cold and I'd be worried it wouldn't thaw in time.
 
Charliemeow said:
Sue- thanks! I've heard that idea mentioned before, I have visions of Charlie kicking still-frozen food all around the house trying to eat it! That thought grosses me out! Our kitchen is cold and I'd be worried it wouldn't thaw in time.
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If needed, one can mix the fresh with the frozen. That way there is something un-thawed for now, the cubes meanwhile thaw AND keeps the fresh cool. Cats lick their butts too and that gross by just about anyone's standard.
 
Gator & H (GA) said:
Charliemeow said:
Sue- thanks! I've heard that idea mentioned before, I have visions of Charlie kicking still-frozen food all around the house trying to eat it! That thought grosses me out! Our kitchen is cold and I'd be worried it wouldn't thaw in time.
Click to expand...
If needed, one can mix the fresh with the frozen. That way there is something un-thawed for now, the cubes meanwhile thaw AND keeps the fresh cool. Cats lick their butts too and that gross by just about anyone's standard.
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:lol: :lol: Very true, Gator! Thanks for the laugh. I also put a frozen food cube in with the fresh, works well.
 
i would do that with tom overnight but he is picky about 'left overs' food from the same can twice. i think he may turn up his nose at slowly defrosted ff.
plus i'm pretty sure he sleeps thru the whole night as he's in the same spot when we go to bed as when we wake up.
 
No midnight crazies? Charlie and darla are maniacs in the night. I think Charlie tries to wake the baby so that we will wake up and feed him. Cats are conniving like that!
Gator: I'm glad my cats aren't like those dogs who drag their bottoms on the floor. That's even worse!
 
10/04/10 Callie's AMPS 238 +2 269 +8 165
yesterday viewtopic.php?f=9&t=26539

EEUWWEE .. botttom dragging is gross .. but sometimes can't be helped ..lol My daughters dog has had to remove a reluctant poo or two that way and it's still gross, but also makes me laugh. Bad me! Thanks for the great tips on night feeding. I have just been feeding before bed and not leaving anything down. My kids don't bother me at night over feeding so I thought that it was a good idea. Should I get a feeder? I have been giving light meals 4 to 5 times a day. 1/2 or less of a small can or 1/4 of a large one. None of them has put up any fuss, but my 2 civvies are now not eating much of the wet and so I am going to give the dry (sm amt) before bedtime since it keeps them full longer. They are still in transition, but Callie has no choice. The wet made all the difference and I want it to stay that way. Big numbers are hard on the organs and I can't take a chance since she had so long in the 400's. I think a feeder loaded with a 4 or less carb content would keep up her mini meal schedule better. I'm not sure and would love advice on this. PS I caught her in her siblings food dishes a little while ago .. forgot to remove them (big oops) .. and even though I only had a few pieces of the dry in there will worry about her PMPS #. Callie dropped a little over 100 points immediately after going all wet. There is a huge difference and if I hadn't dropprd her insulin way down she might have been in trouble! Of the many things I learned here, a big one is to test more at any change .. keep an eye out on behaviors .. and breathe :) Libby and Callie (and civvies: brother Buddy and sister Missy)

Callie's SS
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key ... TuVA#gid=0
Callie 10 yrs old on 9/17/10 dx 6/12/10
Lantus 2 units BID (U100) since 9/30/10
HT BG with ReliOn
Wet food only since 9/30/10
Camp Hill, PA USA
 
It can be hard to remember to breathe. I have to think of a way to make this fun, or at least less traumatic and disruptive. I hope that doesn't make me sound like a bad bean, but seriously! It's so disruptive to our schedule (with a toddler i NEED and LIVE on a schedule) and it all falls on me! Hub is too nervous to do ear pokes. He will do shots, though. Lots of good tips and info here, it's just so hard to process it all at once. It'll take time, but we will get there, I hope.
 
the learning curve is steep, that's for sure. but before long...without even realizing it, you will probably go 2 maybe even 3 whole minutes without thinking about it :lol:
no, seriously..in no time it will all become 2nd nature to you and fit into your routine so that you'll do 95% of it without even thinking. give yourself a little time and a pat on the shoulder for getting this far.
 
HI I have 5 cats and a 3yrs old toddler and I'm a single mom- I'm happy I found this board. 4 of my cats are senior with special needs. When I found this board I had been told the day before to consider saying goodbye to my cat--I was SOO mad I just felt there MUST be some other cat lovers out there that can help me... I found this board-TG! It has been frustrating and very scary and sad but I've hung in there and keep believing things will get better.. and stuff is but still frustrated with time. I just know if I don't do this I will hold the guilt of not taking care of my loved one (that is how I feel).. based on what I read here things WILL get better.. and you know what things are. It was learning about the different insulins, what is diabetes, how does food play a part and having my vet being a part of my cat health journey that has made a huge difference. I also have purchased a meter from target that the stripes cost so much less that ULTRA mini! so cost is decreasing as well.. I found Lantus online canada pharmacy for $100 cheaper than here! Hang in there - things will get into a routine. You know it will be a yr come this halloween ringworm was introduced to my house through my son! yup!! nice huh?? well having 6 cats at the time and ringworm in the house.. OMG!!! If you want to know crazy I'll tell you what I had to do-including the lyme sulfur dips.. in the end I didn't lose my mind (although I felt like I would and I was exhausted). A routine was established and my cats did get better. It is how I met my vet I have for my diabetic cat (Khan)..I feel it was meant to be this way. I treated my house agressively since I don't do anything halfway.. only full throddle or nothing. so it is with my diabetic cat. keep up the great work!!
 
Pepper: holy cow you have a lot on your plate! It gets hard to juggle it all! Thanks for the inspiration. I know it'll get easier, especially once Charlie is regulated. I just hope that is relatively soon!
 
Yes a bit crazy..I'm hoping eventually Khan will go into a honeymoon stage. which from my understanding is when the pancrease starts to produce insulin again and so the dose decreases and eventually the cat is off of the insulin. Seems from the past few days his numbers are dropping.
 
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