Feeding advice - 1 in remission 1 with kidney disease

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fun2doimpossible

fun2doimpossible

Member Since 2013
Hi everyone!
It's been a while since I've posted. First the good news. Clyde is coming up on 6 months OTJ in about two weeks! On Wed when I did his monthly BG check, his BG was 84.

Now the bad news. I took them both to the vet on Wednesday night because I was seeing more food left in the dish then was normal over the last couple of days. Clyde gained three pounds since he was at the vet in Dec. :shock: Max (the civilian) on the other hand, lost two pounds. The vet took a sample of his blood and the lab work came back today.

If I understood her correctly, Max's blood creatinine level is elevated @ 2.54 but the other markers, such as blood phosphorous that typically go up with kidney disease are normal range for a cat. (She does want me to get a urine sample and to run a couple more tests since he is behaving normally and does not appear to be drinking or using the litter box excessively to make sure this is accurate.) The big issue is she wants me to put Max on a kidney disease friendly diet, which she is telling is a low protein diet and the exact opposite of what I need for Clyde. (Please keep in mind I have not done any Googling on this yet, so I don't know if this suggestion is similar to the prescription diabetic diet many vets recommend for diabetic cats or is accurate.)

Does anyone have any good suggestions on how to actually feed two cats with very different dietary needs?

I'm very concerned that if Clyde starts accidently eating what Max is supposed to be eating he could fall out of remission. Right now, they both get about 3oz of Evo twice a day. They typically eat a couple of bites but don't finish it before I have to leave for work and graze on it during the rest of the day. I've tried collecting the food after a while to train them to eat everything when it was put down, but whenever I've tried that a couple of hours later they started making such a racket until they got more food it wasn't funny. (This went on for days.)

The other question I have, is does anyone know of a resource similar to FDMB for feline kidney disease?
 
Our kidney cats did not last long on the prescription kidney foods before they decided other food was better. It is the one prescription food that I agree is better for cats, studies have shown longer life span for cats who eat the prescription foods for CKD vs cats who eat OTC with phosphorus binders and other meds. That said, I never reduced the protein for any of my kidney cats (3 now). I don't believe studies support that idea other than in the final stages. Reducing protein too early can contribute to muscle wasting, which is hard enough to fight in kidney cats. In fact, right now my last surviving kidney girl (16 months since diagnosis) is eating Kitten formula food, very high in protein. I feed Wellness mostly for my kidney girls. Taz prefers Blue Wilderness Kitten Formula right now. I sometimes mix in the wet k/d and she does get the dry k/d when she is not around the other cats.

Your Creatinine is not too high at this point. That is very promising. Phosphorus can be in the normal levels and still be too high for a CKD cat so make sure to watch the foods to keep phosphorus down as much as possible.

Tanya's page is the leading CKD page out there. Its forums aren't quite as easy to use, but tons of great information and great people there. http://www.felinecrf.org/
 
From Dr Lisa Pierson's list : http://catinfo.org/docs/FoodChartPhosphorus9-22-12.pdf

In terms of raw food (witch is the lowest carb % you will find with a very low phosphorus %) p.24-25 in the document
Nature's Variety raw chicken
Nature's Variety raw beef
Nature's Variety raw organic chicken
etc...

In terms of canned food : p.01 in the document
The lowest in phosphorus (and still low enough carb : 5%) is Weruva steak frites
Otherwise Evo 95% chicken turkey is a good second choice (also much cheaper$$)
 
Thank you all for your help. It looks like I have a lot of reading and learning to do in order to make the best decisions for Max. :smile:

The good news is whatever I decide to do with Max, I know that in the event I decide to try the Hills Prescription Diet K/D I have to keep it far...far away from Clyde. If I calculated it correctly it's something like 27% carbs for the canned food :shock:

Looking at Dr. Pierson's chart the Evo chicken I'm currently feeding them actually appears to be a decent food for both of them. The Evo chicken is only 2% carbs (yeah! for Clyde :smile: ) and 155 mg Phos/100 calories. The only downside is the % of phosphorus as a dry matter percentage is 0.88% which seems to be on the higher end of the lower numbers and about double (0.4% of the Hills K/D).

While I'm not sure it is the best thing for Max to keep eating, based on my limited knowledge so far, it appears the Evo Chicken he is currently eating is at least a decent choice while I educate myself on his condition.
 
For an OTC food that is a very good number on the EVO. The prescription foods do run about half of the better OTC foods. I always figured if I could stay under 250 I was doing OK, under 200 I was doing good. EVO was one in our arsenal, but unfortunately it tends to give our crew loose stools so we can't feed it consistently.
 
Looking at Dr. Pierson's chart the Evo chicken I'm currently feeding them actually appears to be a decent food for both of them. The Evo chicken is only 2% carbs (yeah! for Clyde :smile: ) and 155 mg Phos/100 calories. The only downside is the % of phosphorus as a dry matter percentage is 0.88% which seems to be on the higher end of the lower numbers and about double (0.4% of the Hills K/D).
Click to expand...
The difference in phos % is not as high as it sounds. The general rule of thumb is to keep it as low as possible but always under 1.0%.
But if you really want to have a lower phos % you still have Weruva steak frites that beats Evo. But it's expensive I know.

My cat is an ex diabetic (in remission since 3 years) and is currently CKD stage 2. I did spend many many hours trying to figure out if Hill's K/D would benefit my cat or not. I finally went against my vet's recommendation, and stayed with my high quality protein low carb low phos food (a European equivalent of Weruva steak frites), and decided that this was my final word!

With high carbs, low protein, your cat could and probably will lose some lean muscle after some time, and we're not talking about a healthy weight loss here! This is very dangerous. Many vets think that CKD is doing that, but it is actually the protein privation from the K/D that is to blame.

Tanya's website contains many information, but she doesn't really position herself on the high protein or the low protein side... She does mention that in the late stage 3 or stage 4 if she had the choice between 2 brands that have the same phos levels, but different protein, she would opt for the one with fewer protein. But she's not a big high carb/low protein supporter either! And we're only talking about the last 2 stages here. Stages 1 and 2 cats should simply never be restricted in protein!

Dont forget low protein goes with high carbs!

If I lived in the states I would definitely go with Weruva steak frites to get the .57% phos DM. But if I couldn't afford it, I would go with Evo 95% chicken/turkey.

But I would still be adding to my cat's food all the natural supplements that are currently keeping her healthy and stable in stage 2 :

Slippery elm bark (to prevent nausea and constipation) : http://www.felinecrf.org/holistic_treatments.htm
Krill oil to help with her arthritis and keep her skin and hair healthy (that thing does wonders!)
Taurine (just a little extra cuz her food already contains the minimum requirement) to help her immune system in general
Glucosamine (Cosequin) for her arthritis

When my cat's poo shows that it starts go toward constipation, I add 1/8th tsp of psyllium powder to her food: http://www.felinecrf.org/constipation.htm#fibre

And that's about it!
I would never consider changing my cat's healthy high quality/low carb/low phos/high protein food just to get the .20% difference in phos from the K/D (my food is .60%) ! But that's just my opinion
 
@Kim,

kimouette said:
.. I finally went against my vet's recommendation, and stayed with my high quality protein low carb low phos food (a European equivalent of Weruva steak frites)
Click to expand...

May I ask what European food you're feeding (sorry if I missed that). I know there are a few non-US folks trying to find more useful foods for their CKD kitties.

I also thought your use of supplements was very useful info.

Thanks,

Eliz
 
Cool...there is definitely a lot to learn with this. For the time being, I'm going to stay with the Evo 95% Chicken & Turkey, at least until they eat through the 4 cases that I just bought. :-D After that, I will look into the Weruva steak frites and see if they eat it.

If I change the food, is there anything I should be watching for with Clyde and his BG? I'm down to testing him once a month since he's in remission. Currently the Evo 95% Chicken & Turkey is only 2% carbs and the Weruva is about 5%. Before he went OTJ, his BG seemed to be higher when I used the other types of Evo, which depending on the type had a max of 8% carbs.
 
I am feeding my 2 CRF kitties raw with a pho blocker because it is their favorite food and the important thing is to keep them eating and drinking. Their raw diet is supplemented by heavily saturated Wellness Core, grain free, turkey and chicken with liver which is 8% carb and low phoshorus. I do not agree with decreasing or limiting their protein intake nor does my vet.
 
Elizabeth and Bertie said:
@Kim,

kimouette said:
.. I finally went against my vet's recommendation, and stayed with my high quality protein low carb low phos food (a European equivalent of Weruva steak frites)
Click to expand...

May I ask what European food you're feeding (sorry if I missed that). I know there are a few non-US folks trying to find more useful foods for their CKD kitties.

I also thought your use of supplements was very useful info.

Thanks,

Eliz
Click to expand...
The food I'm talking about is made in Germany but you can buy it on Zooplus anywhere in Europe!
Here's the manufacturer's webpage : http://www.terracanis.de/shop/katze/nas ... minze.html
Buying from the manufacturer is cheaper than Zooplus!! But I'm not sure they can ship anywhere in europe
And here's the link on zooplus (UK) :http://www.zooplus.co.uk/esearch.htm#q=terra%20faelis --- LOOK FOR Chicken with Squash & Catnip


About phosphorus... I know we can easily lower the phosphorus intake of a cat by adding cooked egg whites in his food (highly digestible protein with almost no phosphorus = perfect calorie for a CKD cat). I guess we could say that these egg whites act as phosphorus blockers in a way! If I am not already using that method, it's because I read too much about the importance of the CA:PH ratio. By adding egg whites I would be lowering phos, but I would also be messing with that ratio.
Maybe I should'nt worry that much about the CA:PH ratio since phosphorus blockers are also messing with it!
 
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