Elmo PMPS 155.....
- Thread starter Beth 73
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Critter Mom
Member Since 2014
Suggestion: try feeding him 8% carbs tomorrow morning.
Mogs
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I am sooooooooooo glad to hear he's feeling and acting better. Bet seeing him like this is making his mama feel better, too.+3.5....115......+4...128........behavior: quite different... instead of up in his man cave is here in kitchen, laying in the sun...
Might I suggest that you keep a brief note of clinical signs in his spreadsheet too, Beth? It really helps to see both the clinical signs and the BG data side by side - can make it easier to spot patterns. (It's the way I managed to work out that C/V insulin was making Saoirse feel icky; at that stage I'd not read anything here about the possibility that a particular insulin might make a kitty feel crummy despite BG levels having improved.)
Mogs
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Beth 73
Member Since 2016
Will do, oh Great Yoda of all things kitty....i have more notes on him than squirrels have nuts ! Was encouraged in that habit by my wonderful holistic vet I consult with by phone from time to time...you all would love her..she is definitely one of us !Suggestion: try feeding him 8% carbs tomorrow morning.
I am sooooooooooo glad to hear he's feeling and acting better. Bet seeing him like this is making his mama feel better, too.
Might I suggest that you keep a brief note of clinical signs in his spreadsheet too, Beth? It really helps to see both the clinical signs and the BG data side by side - can make it easier to spot patterns. (It's the way I managed to work out that C/V insulin was making Saoirse feel icky; at that stage I'd not read anything here about the possibility that a particular insulin might make a kitty feel crummy despite BG levels having improved.)
Mogs
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Beth 73
Member Since 2016
"An excess of grit and determination" ... I love that quote and totally relate !!!
Critter Mom
Member Since 2014
She's the Yoda!
One thing about this Sugar Dance is that it teaches us to get much better at 'listening' to our beloved fur babies. Keeping a journal for Saoirse helped me to care for her better (especially when there were setbacks). Indeed, through her spreadsheets Saoirse is still able to help kitties here now. I love my girl so very much - and I always will. I am beyond blessed that I'm the one who got to be her Person ... (((Saoirse)))
Mogs
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Beth 73
Member Since 2016
Yes, Mogs, Saoirse continues to love and give ....and I know they truly have " gone ahead" and wait for us there!!!What a legacy !!! Thank you, sweet Saoirse
Critter Mom
Member Since 2014
I work on the principle that she's still right here beside me all the time. (I'd be sat in a padded room somewhere were it not for that ... 
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Here's her spreadsheet from last year:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1v0bhNxuX_2npXIFlDVDS821F1_Y2K-0KsvIJXmmcjME/edit#gid=5
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)What a legacy !!! Thank you, sweet Saoirse
Here's her spreadsheet from last year:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1v0bhNxuX_2npXIFlDVDS821F1_Y2K-0KsvIJXmmcjME/edit#gid=5
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Beth 73
Member Since 2016
Oh , I believe that without doubt... I believe they are more waiting for us far more than gone....we have had to release our two oldest in the last year and a half......Socks lived to be 21 and went ahead May 2015...then almost to the day our sweet 19 year old Chloe left this May....I work on the principle that she's still right here beside me all the time. (I'd be sat in a padded room somewhere were it not for that ...
Here's her spreadsheet from last year:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1v0bhNxuX_2npXIFlDVDS821F1_Y2K-0KsvIJXmmcjME/edit#gid=5
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Kris & Teasel
Member Since 2016
Sorry to be gone when advice was requested, Beth. I have a very large furry critter who lives out at a stable and he needed a visit and a grooming today. Beautiful winter wonderland out there!
MrWorfMen's Mom
Member Since 2015
Just catching up. Was on the phone FOREVER!
Hugs to you both for the ones who have passed on. I've been through it myself and firmly believe they never leave us and are always watching over us. We learn so much from each one of our furkids. Because they are all so very unique and special, they continue to influence our choices and actions even when they aren't right under foot.
Elmo is looking so good! Glad you stuck with the lower dose.
Hugs to you both for the ones who have passed on. I've been through it myself and firmly believe they never leave us and are always watching over us. We learn so much from each one of our furkids. Because they are all so very unique and special, they continue to influence our choices and actions even when they aren't right under foot.
Elmo is looking so good! Glad you stuck with the lower dose.
Critter Mom
Member Since 2014
I'm sorry to hear that you lost them, Beth - and so close to one another - but glad to hear that you had them in this realm for as long as you did. Oh, but that they might be longer-lived ...
I've just been telling another member a story about when I first adopted Saoirse and Amadán: here's a link to the post in case you'd like to read it:
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/introducing-scooter.169382/#post-1842592
(I'm unable to write a proper FMDB tribute for them because remembering the joy of the wonderful times is just too painful; makes the missing so much worse ...).
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Critter Mom
Member Since 2014
Hugs to you too, Linda.
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MrWorfMen's Mom
Member Since 2015
Another thing about the longer acting insulins is that you can shoot lower pre-shot numbers (once you have enough data) to keep kitty surfing in good numbers because of that gentler curve.
Beth 73
Member Since 2016
Oh Kris, never apologize for living ur life
....I bet ur stable critter is gorgeous and needs his Momma too.....and yes, I still have snowy envy
Critter Mom
Member Since 2014
[Emphasis mine]
That's the key to it all; the L insulins are great for holding down good BG levels because you can administer them at lower PS levels (safety and data volume permitting). The likes of Vetsulin are better at yanking down high numbers but not really suitable for tightly regulating a kitty in the optimum, healing range. I think that Vetsulin can be sufficient to help cats who only need a diet change and a bit of a nudge to go into remission but in situations where a kitty's pancreas needs to rest for a longer period in order to recover more beta cell function then the L insulins are, in my considered opinion, the best treatment choice (provided they agree with the cat).
The opportunity to tightly regulate a home-monitored cat safely provided by these insulins can make such a difference. Having seen real-world examples of how the different insulins work in cats it's no surprise to me now that such superior remission rates were observed in the Roomp-Rand study of newly-diagnosed cats who receive early treatment with L insulins. Indeed, I think there may be many cats who could be good candidates for remission but who will never achieve it - either through being put on the Caninsulin 'doggy protocol' (feed the cat kitty cornflakes and throw lots of insulin at it to try to keep it under the renal threshold) or else getting close to remission and then hitting the C/V 'dosing wall' where for safety reasons it's not possible to get the cat into the tightly-regulated BG levels which offer the best chance of the pancreas recovering enough beta cell function. It makes me sad because there must be a lot of kitties and caregivers out there who might have been able to live life free of the pokes and prods and the worries if only they'd been able to access a better treatment option.
Saoirse is a case in point: she got close to remission BG levels with Caninsulin and closely controlled feeding but her pancreas still wasn't getting proper rest because even a 0.2IU dose was too harsh and her body ended up fighting against the insulin for a good part of each cycle. After I had to stop Caninsulin for safety reasons she couldn't hold in the normal range without support (and within a week she had a severe pancreatitis flare). I don't think she would have achieved remission without being tighly regulated on Lantus.
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Critter Mom
Member Since 2014
Any news, Beth?
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Beth 73
Member Since 2016
Oh, Mogs, thank you for checking on us....Elmo was up, bopping around until about 2:00 when he retreated to his man cave for the first time in the day....sending his SS along to the vet tomorrow and reschedule for Friday....I got the impression from his wife who works with him that normally at this point where Elmo is that they do a trial OTJ ....I said I believed Elmo needed more time on a more gentle insulin to give his pancreas optimum healing time.....I know that is what is best for him but I am a bit scared in learning how to use a new insulin when he is doing so well...I know I have no choice and that we have hit the vetsulin wall( perfect description from you) but I'm dealing with apprehension about the switch....after a good night's sleep tonight I will tackle the Lantus stickies tomorrow...glad you gave walked almost this same path with sweet Saoires so that calms my heart muchly
Beth 73
Member Since 2016
If you could tomorrow, very briefly tell me about Saoires's transition....since my vet has never used Lantus I will be totally dependent on FDMB for direction and protocol.
Beth 73
Member Since 2016
AND, Mogs, please explain how I am to try feeding 8 carb food tomorrow morning....give it to him til he walks away and not feed more when he returns? Can I feed other 5carb after the 8 carb at the same meal??? Or just put 8 down,when he walks away that is it for that meal ???? As u can see, my overthinking self has barged in
Beth 73
Member Since 2016
Kris, also forgot to thank you for the excellent tip to " play with water" to practice drawing up this minuscule dose. Have also been practicing with an orange to understand how it feels to administer the dose. My sweet husband usually does the shooting while I pet Elmo but he is gone til tomorrow and then will be gone again this Sunday thru Thursday to ski with our son....so it's time to put on my big girl pants and give Elmo his dose....
Kris & Teasel
Member Since 2016
You can do it, Beth. In my experience, there's very little resistance when the needle of the syringe pierces the skin, especially if you're holding the skin taut.
I'm glad the coloured water tip helped.
Beth 73
Member Since 2016
@Kris & Teasel @MrWorfMen's Mom .......first off, should I start a new thread or rename a current one as I did here???...,Elmo had aPMPS of 155.... unless I hear different I will proceed with .25 minus full drop and take a +2 and + 4 unless I get chicken whereas I will take a + 3 as well 
.....sorry to be such a baby...just feel better checking with u all before proceeding....will be feeding in 20 minutes and shot 30 minutes after that....you all r my best...Elmo said to say thank you, thank you
.....sorry to be such a baby...just feel better checking with u all before proceeding....will be feeding in 20 minutes and shot 30 minutes after that....you all r my best...Elmo said to say thank you, thank you
MrWorfMen's Mom
Member Since 2015
No problem Beth. You are not being a baby. You are doing great and there is nothing wrong with wanting some backup of confirmation of dosing decisions. I think the same dose with tests at +2 and +4 is a good plan. As you said, you can always grab a +3 if you need or want to. I think Elmo will behave himself again tonight.
He's had a couple of very nice cycle on this dose.
Man I just hit an unknown key and the type got HUGE. Please know I am not yelling!
Man I just hit an unknown key and the type got HUGE. Please know I am not yelling!
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Critter Mom
Member Since 2014
Just seen this, Beth.
Glad Elmo didn't bounce at PMPS.
I like the plan for tonight. Don't worry about food carb % for now; just feed exactly the same tonight as you did on last night's PM cycle. Bearing in mind it's the night time cycle I'd suggest you keep to giving Elmo his +1.5 snack tonight.
In terms of giving the injection, in addition to making sure the skin tent is taut, make sure the bevelled side of the needle is facing you and that you insert the needle under the skin at a 45 degree angle to the cat's body. Practising on an orange really helps.
Mogs
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Glad Elmo didn't bounce at PMPS.
I like the plan for tonight. Don't worry about food carb % for now; just feed exactly the same tonight as you did on last night's PM cycle. Bearing in mind it's the night time cycle I'd suggest you keep to giving Elmo his +1.5 snack tonight.
In terms of giving the injection, in addition to making sure the skin tent is taut, make sure the bevelled side of the needle is facing you and that you insert the needle under the skin at a 45 degree angle to the cat's body. Practising on an orange really helps.
Mogs
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Critter Mom
Member Since 2014
Beth 73
Member Since 2016
No problem Beth. You are not being a baby. You are doing great and there is nothing wrong with wanting some backup of confirmation of dosing decisions. I think the same dose with tests at +2 and +4 is a good plan. As you said, you can always grab a +3 if you need or want to. I think Elmo will behave himself again tonight. He's had a couple of very nice cycle on this dose.
Man I just hit an unknown key and the type got HUGE. Please know I am not yelling!
.....never would think that, Linda...a million thanks to you and sweet Menace
Beth 73
Member Since 2016
Thank u, thank u Mogs....he usually eats off and on til +1.5 but if he hasn't Ill give him a bit of a + 1.5 snack....sweet restful sleep to you !!!!
MrWorfMen's Mom
Member Since 2015
How much smaller doses could be given with u100s ??? Just want to be ready to answer any questions he might have.....
Well that is a bit of a tough question because we don't know exactly what the dose is when using the U40 0.25u minus a drop "method". You'd have to draw up 0.25u, count how many drops were in it and do the math. And of course the size of drop can differ slightly too. Using the U100 syringes, you'd be able to eyeball a dose of 0.1u and could technically use the drop method to decrease that further.
Critter Mom
Member Since 2014
Start a new thread for Elmo tomorrow, Beth, and post a link to this one in the opening post. (One of us can post the link for you if you don't yet know how to do so. )
I'll reply to some of the questions above about transitioning to Lantus on this thread tomorrow (need to sort out the Noodlebug and take my sleep meds soon; I'm absolutely hanging).
If you fancy some light bedtime reading the "Management of Diabetic Cats" PDF contains the dose adjustment guidelines for cats following the Roomp-Rand Tight Regulation Protocol. If you go to the L&L support group board (link below) you'll find a sticky at the top of the board with the Start Low/Go Slow dosing guidelines.
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/forums/lantus-glargine-levemir-detemir.9/
Mogs
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)I'll reply to some of the questions above about transitioning to Lantus on this thread tomorrow (need to sort out the Noodlebug and take my sleep meds soon; I'm absolutely hanging).
If you fancy some light bedtime reading the "Management of Diabetic Cats" PDF contains the dose adjustment guidelines for cats following the Roomp-Rand Tight Regulation Protocol. If you go to the L&L support group board (link below) you'll find a sticky at the top of the board with the Start Low/Go Slow dosing guidelines.
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/forums/lantus-glargine-levemir-detemir.9/
Mogs
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MrWorfMen's Mom
Member Since 2015
Fixed it! Now the anti-jinx is official!
Chris & China (GA)
Member Since 2013
But seriously Beth....if you switch to Lantus, you'll have lots of help learning how to use it....it's the most active forum here because so many of us use it. Generally we start the Lantus at about the same dose as Vetsulin/Caninsulin/ProZinc so Elmo would probably be started at .25
Beth 73
Member Since 2016
Critter Mom
Member Since 2014
BTW - re injections, the insulin syringe needle's really fine and goes in easily. Injecting the orange will give you a fairly good idea of what it feels like.
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Beth 73
Member Since 2016
Thank you, fellow Ozarkian
But seriously Beth....if you switch to Lantus, you'll have lots of help learning how to use it....it's the most active forum here because so many of us use it. Generally we start the Lantus at about the same dose as Vetsulin/Caninsulin/ProZinc so Elmo would probably be started at .25
Beth 73
Member Since 2016
No , no, no...tomorrow will be best for both of us...I feel a bit like trampled ground today so going to veg tonight....my 94 year old momma can turn me every which way but loose, bless her pointed little head ......Start a new thread for Elmo tomorrow, Beth, and post a link to this one in the opening post. (One of us can post the link for you if you don't yet know how to do so.
I'll reply to some of the questions above about transitioning to Lantus on this thread tomorrow (need to sort out the Noodlebug and take my sleep meds soon; I'm absolutely hanging.)
If you fancy some light bedtime reading the "Management of Diabetic Cats" PDF contains the dose adjustment guidelines for cats following the Roomp-Rand Tight Regulation Protocol. If you go to the L&L support group board (link below) you'll find a sticky at the top of the board with the Start Low/Go Slow dosing guidelines.
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/forums/lantus-glargine-levemir-detemir.9/
Mogs
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Beth 73
Member Since 2016
Critter Mom
Member Since 2014
@Chris & China - Visibility must be poor tonight. I guess you couldn't see just how deeply the tongue was implanted in the cheek from all the way over there!
Mogs
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MrWorfMen's Mom
Member Since 2015
I'd keep it simple for the vet Beth. You'd be able to give Elmo essentially half of what you are giving him now give or take a drop!this be a crazy hot mess at times
Kris & Teasel
Member Since 2016
Sorry I missed your query AGAIN Beth! This time I was out at a little Christmas pot luck get-together. I usually don't go anywhere - it's just that busy season we're in.
MrWorfMen's Mom
Member Since 2015
Glad to hear you got out to the party Kris! A little seasonal cheer and good company is good for the soul!
Beth 73
Member Since 2016
Amen!!! And very well deservedGlad to hear you got out to the party Kris! A little seasonal cheer and good company is good for the soul!
Beth 73
Member Since 2016
Kris, Kris, Kris..hush up and enjoy yourself..you deserve all the good thingsSorry I missed your query AGAIN Beth! This time I was out at a little Christmas pot luck get-together. I usually don't go anywhere - it's just that busy season we're in.
Critter Mom
Member Since 2014
Wishes for a safe, peaceful and restorative night to you both.
Mogs
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Mogs
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Beth 73
Member Since 2016
Oh, Mogs, received and sent right back to you and yoursWishes for a safe, peaceful and restorative night to you both.
Mogs
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